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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.


Understood. And I am saying that this staff was handed a team where the only way they could even hope to win even 6-8 games is by putting off the concept of rebuilding. So either way this season was a waste. If they try to clean house, as they did, they have no way to help themselves with acquiring personnel. And if they put it off in order to win more games, they take a severely flawed team and likely end up only delaying a rebuild and house cleaning until this year, and all they really end up with is a slightly worse draft slot and more crap to clean from the roster and culture in a shorter period of time.

It was lose-lose for this staff from day one. One legitimate year of patience is all I think it is fair to at least ask for.

And Hue didn't win right away. Tom Cable had more to do with shaping that roster than Hue did, and Cable went 8-8 the year before. So, really, all Hue did was repeat what the last guy who got fired did. And he did it by mortgaging big time as well, with a defense that regressed severely. Far as I can tell he did worse than Cable in that case.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.


Understood. And I am saying that this staff was handed a team where the only way they could even hope to win even 6-8 games is by putting off the concept of rebuilding. So either way this season was a waste. If they try to clean house, as they did, they have no way to help themselves with acquiring personnel. And if they put it off in order to win more games, they take a severely flawed team and likely end up only delaying a rebuild and house cleaning until this year, and all they really end up with is a slightly worse draft slot and more crap to clean from the roster and culture in a shorter period of time.

It was lose-lose for this staff from day one. One legitimate year of patience is all I think it is fair to at least ask for.

And Hue didn't win right away. Tom Cable had more to do with shaping that roster than Hue did, and Cable went 8-8 the year before. So, really, all Hue did was repeat what the last guy who got fired did. And he did it by mortgaging big time as well, with a defense that regressed severely. Far as I can tell he did worse than Cable in that case.


As far as the bold, it is documented fact by Greg Pappas that major factors into Cable's firing is that he was an absentee HC who allowed HueJax to convert the offense to PBS, to which Cable knew little about. Why we are forced to revisit this issue time and time again is beyond me. Cable was more interested in assaulting his staff and firing in his whore on the road than actually coaching the team. That resurgence when Hue was brought is the reason he was given the reigns by Davis.

Furthermore, it was that instance resurgence that people look at what when they openly wonder why Hue was fired (not saying I wanted him back or that he was perfect). What I am concerned about, and I think many others, is the philosophy of beating your head into a wall continuing to get the same results, it's Knapp's archaic approach which is the problem. Iirc, in week 4 or 5 Knapp essentially abandon the ZBS and reverted back to the PBS only to SLOWLY feed the ZBS back into the offense, which is what he SHOULD have done in the FIRST place is all.

I'm NOT saying the roster is great but they are professionals. I'm sorry but these players aren't as bad as they look, merely they are in the wrong system. You don't coach for high drafts. That's an outdated paradigm. Future draft picks aren't promised to you, nor is a HC coaches employment. Win now (ie: play significantly better) is the mantra of TODAY because people ARE doing it. We hafta stop giving people passes talking about "woe is us the roster is poor" at the very least this current team should be scrappy week in and out. I'm not advocating a firing as clearly new GM McKenzie has essentially admitted he could have done some things differently. Live and learn. Collectively most will get another season but don't just blindly give everyone (cept Knapp) a pass. Regardless of the industry EVERYONE is compared to their peers.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.


Understood. And I am saying that this staff was handed a team where the only way they could even hope to win even 6-8 games is by putting off the concept of rebuilding. So either way this season was a waste. If they try to clean house, as they did, they have no way to help themselves with acquiring personnel. And if they put it off in order to win more games, they take a severely flawed team and likely end up only delaying a rebuild and house cleaning until this year, and all they really end up with is a slightly worse draft slot and more crap to clean from the roster and culture in a shorter period of time.

It was lose-lose for this staff from day one. One legitimate year of patience is all I think it is fair to at least ask for.

And Hue didn't win right away. Tom Cable had more to do with shaping that roster than Hue did, and Cable went 8-8 the year before. So, really, all Hue did was repeat what the last guy who got fired did. And he did it by mortgaging big time as well, with a defense that regressed severely. Far as I can tell he did worse than Cable in that case.


As far as the bold, it is documented fact by Greg Pappas that major factors into Cable's firing is that he was an absentee HC who allowed HueJax to convert the offense to PBS, to which Cable knew little about. Why we are forced to revisit this issue time and time again is beyond me. Cable was more interested in assaulting his staff and firing in his whore on the road than actually coaching the team. That resurgence when Hue was brought is the reason he was given the reigns by Davis.

Furthermore, it was that instance resurgence that people look at what when they openly wonder why Hue was fired (not saying I wanted him back or that he was perfect). What I am concerned about, and I think many others, is the philosophy of beating your head into a wall continuing to get the same results, it's Knapp's archaic approach which is the problem. Iirc, in week 4 or 5 Knapp essentially abandon the ZBS and reverted back to the PBS only to SLOWLY feed the ZBS back into the offense, which is what he SHOULD have done in the FIRST place is all.

I'm NOT saying the roster is great but they are professionals. I'm sorry but these players aren't as bad as they look, merely they are in the wrong system. You don't coach for high drafts. That's an outdated paradigm. Future draft picks aren't promised to you, nor is a HC coaches employment. Win now (ie: play significantly better) is the mantra of TODAY because people ARE doing it. We hafta stop giving people passes talking about "woe is us the roster is poor" at the very least this current team should be scrappy week in and out. I'm not advocating a firing as clearly new GM McKenzie has essentially admitted he could have done some things differently. Live and learn. Collectively most will get another season but don't just blindly give everyone (cept Knapp) a pass. Regardless of the industry EVERYONE is compared to their peers.




We didn't abondon the ZBS and go to PBS only than back to ZBS. We should have stuck to the one system and left it at that. It was stupid of Knapp and Allen to switch back. McFadden sucks in a ZBS and he can only last 5 games in a PBS, it's an incredible stupid decision to build your offense around that.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.


Understood. And I am saying that this staff was handed a team where the only way they could even hope to win even 6-8 games is by putting off the concept of rebuilding. So either way this season was a waste. If they try to clean house, as they did, they have no way to help themselves with acquiring personnel. And if they put it off in order to win more games, they take a severely flawed team and likely end up only delaying a rebuild and house cleaning until this year, and all they really end up with is a slightly worse draft slot and more crap to clean from the roster and culture in a shorter period of time.

It was lose-lose for this staff from day one. One legitimate year of patience is all I think it is fair to at least ask for.

And Hue didn't win right away. Tom Cable had more to do with shaping that roster than Hue did, and Cable went 8-8 the year before. So, really, all Hue did was repeat what the last guy who got fired did. And he did it by mortgaging big time as well, with a defense that regressed severely. Far as I can tell he did worse than Cable in that case.


As far as the bold, it is documented fact by Greg Pappas that major factors into Cable's firing is that he was an absentee HC who allowed HueJax to convert the offense to PBS, to which Cable knew little about. Why we are forced to revisit this issue time and time again is beyond me. Cable was more interested in assaulting his staff and firing in his whore on the road than actually coaching the team. That resurgence when Hue was brought is the reason he was given the reigns by Davis.

Furthermore, it was that instance resurgence that people look at what when they openly wonder why Hue was fired (not saying I wanted him back or that he was perfect). What I am concerned about, and I think many others, is the philosophy of beating your head into a wall continuing to get the same results, it's Knapp's archaic approach which is the problem. Iirc, in week 4 or 5 Knapp essentially abandon the ZBS and reverted back to the PBS only to SLOWLY feed the ZBS back into the offense, which is what he SHOULD have done in the FIRST place is all.

I'm NOT saying the roster is great but they are professionals. I'm sorry but these players aren't as bad as they look, merely they are in the wrong system. You don't coach for high drafts. That's an outdated paradigm. Future draft picks aren't promised to you, nor is a HC coaches employment. Win now (ie: play significantly better) is the mantra of TODAY because people ARE doing it. We hafta stop giving people passes talking about "woe is us the roster is poor" at the very least this current team should be scrappy week in and out. I'm not advocating a firing as clearly new GM McKenzie has essentially admitted he could have done some things differently. Live and learn. Collectively most will get another season but don't just blindly give everyone (cept Knapp) a pass. Regardless of the industry EVERYONE is compared to their peers.


Anyone else here think it funny how when Hue was the OC he didn't talk to the media? Heck I remember reading about how he'd troll them sometimes by walking up to the podium to say something only to walk away. Laughing

And who was the last head coach we've had that just coached. I mean it seems almost every year there's some kind of drama with our coaches. Oh well at least we aren't the jets.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With 2 games left, we need the following to happen in order to match last year's offensive production:

-Average 500 yards of offense in the last 2 weeks
-Score 11 TDs on offense
-We already have more pass attempts than all of last year but less yards
-We need 852 yards rushing to reach last year's total.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.


Understood. And I am saying that this staff was handed a team where the only way they could even hope to win even 6-8 games is by putting off the concept of rebuilding. So either way this season was a waste. If they try to clean house, as they did, they have no way to help themselves with acquiring personnel. And if they put it off in order to win more games, they take a severely flawed team and likely end up only delaying a rebuild and house cleaning until this year, and all they really end up with is a slightly worse draft slot and more crap to clean from the roster and culture in a shorter period of time.

It was lose-lose for this staff from day one. One legitimate year of patience is all I think it is fair to at least ask for.

And Hue didn't win right away. Tom Cable had more to do with shaping that roster than Hue did, and Cable went 8-8 the year before. So, really, all Hue did was repeat what the last guy who got fired did. And he did it by mortgaging big time as well, with a defense that regressed severely. Far as I can tell he did worse than Cable in that case.


As far as the bold, it is documented fact by Greg Pappas that major factors into Cable's firing is that he was an absentee HC who allowed HueJax to convert the offense to PBS, to which Cable knew little about. Why we are forced to revisit this issue time and time again is beyond me. Cable was more interested in assaulting his staff and firing in his whore on the road than actually coaching the team. That resurgence when Hue was brought is the reason he was given the reigns by Davis.

Furthermore, it was that instance resurgence that people look at what when they openly wonder why Hue was fired (not saying I wanted him back or that he was perfect). What I am concerned about, and I think many others, is the philosophy of beating your head into a wall continuing to get the same results, it's Knapp's archaic approach which is the problem. Iirc, in week 4 or 5 Knapp essentially abandon the ZBS and reverted back to the PBS only to SLOWLY feed the ZBS back into the offense, which is what he SHOULD have done in the FIRST place is all.

I'm NOT saying the roster is great but they are professionals. I'm sorry but these players aren't as bad as they look, merely they are in the wrong system. You don't coach for high drafts. That's an outdated paradigm. Future draft picks aren't promised to you, nor is a HC coaches employment. Win now (ie: play significantly better) is the mantra of TODAY because people ARE doing it. We hafta stop giving people passes talking about "woe is us the roster is poor" at the very least this current team should be scrappy week in and out. I'm not advocating a firing as clearly new GM McKenzie has essentially admitted he could have done some things differently. Live and learn. Collectively most will get another season but don't just blindly give everyone (cept Knapp) a pass. Regardless of the industry EVERYONE is compared to their peers.


I understand you're saying the Cable season was all Hue, or something to that effect. That's fine. But Hue still never ascended beyond 8-8, was a total megalomaniac headcase, and his team tanked hard. A rebuild was absolutely called for regardless of circumstances.

As to the bold, which players are merely in the wrong system other than McFadden? It's gone over and over again, but I really don't see any system misfits of significance other than McFadden. It's not like we have 380 LB guards or something. And true deep ball receivers? None of them can catch deep anyway? I don't get who the cast of misfits are other than McFadden mainly.
So, essentially, you want to build the team around McFadden. An overrated, inconsistent, injury prone back who has never topped even 1200 yards and only broke 700 once, has achieved 1k once in his 4 year career which is not a hard plateau to reach for a starting back running without comittee - a full time starter which is rare today, never topped 10 TDs (hasnt even rushed for Cool, never ran for 200 yards in a game, and on and on. I love the player, but he is overrated by us and inconsistent. Even when healthy. Beyond the way that most fans see potential and forget to weigh performance which has been heavily discussed, he is in fact inconsistent which has not been broached nearly as much. Does anyone else notice the games where he seems slower, the games where he just doesn't seem to be in it? It happens, plenty.

I think you are trying to be super smart when you say you don't coach for high drafts. Because it is not and never was a paradigm to any coach, ever. Noone ever coaches for high drafts. But staffs do weigh their decisions and take things into account. And the decision is this team needed a new direction, one way or another, one time or another. Better sooner than later in my opinion, and that is the decision they made.

I'm not even going to bring Knapp into it, because I am not a supporter nor do I think many Raider fans are. And I don't believe even the GM is a big supporter after this year. But he installed the system they wanted and his lack of imagination and inability to adjust quickly is a bitter pill that came along with it.
Comparing to your peers is fine, so let's have it cut both ways. Indy for example. A nice one year turnaround. And comparing to us, on the other side of things, they benefitted from a full draft and the #1 pick. We had a decimated draft, perhaps the most widely pilfered draft in draft history, sold out to attempt to win now and a total fail at that. I assume you are unwilling to say that counts for something? That's my claim, that you can put us on par with other teams and their one year improvement and make the comparison. And I say that the comparison can be made when this staff has the opportunity to spend that one year purchasing and drafting players the same way every other team gets to. You want to blame this staff for the things that they were robbed of by Al Davis, Tom Cable, and Hue Jackson and their shortsighted choices. Because it's easier, or because you believe that 8-8 team was better than it really was. I think 8-8 is a stretch, and an illusion anyway. Because if you keep Hue around, this year, with Denver improving the way they have and Tebow out of this awful division, I can't possibly imagine how we would have been better than 6-10. Especially considering the nosedive we experienced at the end of the year last year. And considering the regression in performance of some of our players which had nothing to do with system change, such as Moore amongst others.. And of course the part you are forgetting, again. That the Hue offense, running this year, built around McFadden, who got hurt. Again. Praytell what would we do for those games other than lose, badly?
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a problem noone is assessing here is that the Hue roster was essentially the type of thing it had been for years. Misfit and miscast to any system really. Players playing all over the place who fit all kinds of different systems, who have little versatility and very little well rounded skills. What kind of success can a team possibly have with such a team? Probably the kind of success Hue had, 8-8, fading, buoyed by a terrible division.

Barnes ?, great at neither
Carlisle ZBS
Satele ? fit for neither
Wisniewski ? good at either
Veldheer ? good at either
Meyers, Boss ? poorly utilized in past system
DHB ? can only run comebacks efeectively
Moore ? inconsistent in any system so far
McFadden PBS
Reece ? better in ZBS honestly, misused in past system
Campbell, Palmer ?

Houston ? 3-4 DE, 4-3 UT, 4-3 DE, who knows what he fits
Kelly ? , NT, UT, 3-4 DE, who knows
Seymour ? 3-4 DE or 4-3 UT??
Shaughnessey ? flawed in any system
Wimbley ? - 4-3 DE or SLB?
McClain ? 3-4 ILB or 4-3 MLB
Curry ? -SLB playing WLB??
Routt ? - can only man cover, and poor at it
Huff ? FS, SS, CB, single high or not??
Branch SS
C. Johnson ?

2 guys out of 22 starters who are definite system fits. The rest either fit neither well, are playing out of position, or can play neither or play either equally poorly. This team is built under no specific philosophy. It peaked under Hue, and tanked.
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Rolni


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey guys!

Maybe if we all ask for a new OC for Christmas we will get one soon Smile
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:

As to the bold, which players are merely in the wrong system other than McFadden? It's gone over and over again, but I really don't see any system misfits of significance other than McFadden. It's not like we have 380 LB guards or something. And true deep ball receivers? None of them can catch deep anyway? I don't get who the cast of misfits are other than McFadden mainly.
So, essentially, you want to build the team around McFadden. An overrated, inconsistent, injury prone back who has never topped even 1200 yards and only broke 700 once, has achieved 1k once in his 4 year career which is not a hard plateau to reach for a starting back running without comittee - a full time starter which is rare today, never topped 10 TDs (hasnt even rushed for Cool, never ran for 200 yards in a game, and on and on. I love the player, but he is overrated by us and inconsistent. Even when healthy. Beyond the way that most fans see potential and forget to weigh performance which has been heavily discussed, he is in fact inconsistent which has not been broached nearly as much. Does anyone else notice the games where he seems slower, the games where he just doesn't seem to be in it? It happens, plenty.

I think you are trying to be super smart when you say you don't coach for high drafts. Because it is not and never was a paradigm to any coach, ever. Noone ever coaches for high drafts. But staffs do weigh their decisions and take things into account. And the decision is this team needed a new direction, one way or another, one time or another. Better sooner than later in my opinion, and that is the decision they made.

I'm not even going to bring Knapp into it, because I am not a supporter nor do I think many Raider fans are. And I don't believe even the GM is a big supporter after this year. But he installed the system they wanted and his lack of imagination and inability to adjust quickly is a bitter pill that came along with it.
Comparing to your peers is fine, so let's have it cut both ways. Indy for example. A nice one year turnaround. And comparing to us, on the other side of things, they benefitted from a full draft and the #1 pick. We had a decimated draft, perhaps the most widely pilfered draft in draft history, sold out to attempt to win now and a total fail at that. I assume you are unwilling to say that counts for something? That's my claim, that you can put us on par with other teams and their one year improvement and make the comparison. And I say that the comparison can be made when this staff has the opportunity to spend that one year purchasing and drafting players the same way every other team gets to. You want to blame this staff for the things that they were robbed of by Al Davis, Tom Cable, and Hue Jackson and their shortsighted choices. Because it's easier, or because you believe that 8-8 team was better than it really was. I think 8-8 is a stretch, and an illusion anyway. Because if you keep Hue around, this year, with Denver improving the way they have and Tebow out of this awful division, I can't possibly imagine how we would have been better than 6-10. Especially considering the nosedive we experienced at the end of the year last year. And considering the regression in performance of some of our players which had nothing to do with system change, such as Moore amongst others.. And of course the part you are forgetting, again. That the Hue offense, running this year, built around McFadden, who got hurt. Again. Praytell what would we do for those games other than lose, badly?


What players are in the wrong system? Where do we start?
The entire OL, sans Carlisle, was built for the PBS. The entire unit badly struggled until Knapp converted back to PBS. In addition, Barksdale who was traded for became a casualty of the scheme change.

Ford, before going to IR, and especially Moore have regressed from one of the most vertically dynamic corps to developing alligator arms and conveniently missing site reads over the middle. DHB who found great success in 2011 as a one-trick comeback route pony is no longer taking advantage of the huge cushion he still gets besides the fact he isn't considered a consistent receiving threat.

Until McFadden's injury, Reece was grossly under used

Knapp installed a system with a heavy reliance on a blocking TE that he doesn't have.

Palmer is playing in a heavy rollout and bootleg offense which also doesn't play to his strengths.

TK scoffed at the notion of being a NT yet was tabbed as the opening day NT which was a catastrophic failure.

Nearly every position on offense except Carlisle, Bergstrom, Brisiel & Goodson have been miscast. Knapp is to blame for that. If the FO wants to change the philosophy of the offense fine but build on what works as you feed in your system as the staff was ultimately forced to anyways after the season began. The coaching staff is PAID to do what nearly everyone else felt was obvious.

You are under the impression that anyone who disagrees with you wants to build around someone. Rather, if you don't have a transcendent player and you don't have the draft picks or cap room to acquire this type of player then you play to the strengths of the CURRENT roster, slowly implement your system as acquire the proper players to run it effectively. In short, run PBS until you can get rid of DMC somehow. Run a vertical routes and let DHB work the curl route until you can let his contract expire or cut him.

But as a newly hired CEO (ie:HC/OC) what you DON"T do is shut down the factory completely as you convert from gadgets to widgets. Because that's what gets you fired and it's your predecessor who reaps the benefits. HueJax is NOT the issue. What I am applauding Hue for is his open-minded approach to the offense. Period. Nothing more.

Furthermore draft picks aren't promised. To suggest tanking is counterproductive and leaves a financially challenged team with an empty stadium. Mark Davis is in financial dire straights he simply cannot afford to let the team tank for 2 - 3 as he stockpiles picks. Davis cannot afford pricey buyouts or hire premium coaches. Davis needs be competitive as he transitions the team and gets financially sound.
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Nodisrespect


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
With 2 games left, we need the following to happen in order to match last year's offensive production:

-Average 500 yards of offense in the last 2 weeks
-Score 11 TDs on offense
-We already have more pass attempts than all of last year but less yards
-We need 852 yards rushing to reach last year's total.
oakdb36 with the facts
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bitty


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I agree with everything you said.

And if the fans could give this staff and team just 1, 1 legitimate offseason to see if they can shape their team and show improvement, well... then they might have something to complain about if they fail.

And whatever other new coaches have done is irrelevant. Because I know without even delving into it that every single one of them inherited a vastly better situation in all aspects.


The only real disagreement we have is the paradigm of taking years to turn a program. Very 2000. Even Hue won immediately. I'm just saying.


Understood. And I am saying that this staff was handed a team where the only way they could even hope to win even 6-8 games is by putting off the concept of rebuilding. So either way this season was a waste. If they try to clean house, as they did, they have no way to help themselves with acquiring personnel. And if they put it off in order to win more games, they take a severely flawed team and likely end up only delaying a rebuild and house cleaning until this year, and all they really end up with is a slightly worse draft slot and more crap to clean from the roster and culture in a shorter period of time.

It was lose-lose for this staff from day one. One legitimate year of patience is all I think it is fair to at least ask for.

And Hue didn't win right away. Tom Cable had more to do with shaping that roster than Hue did, and Cable went 8-8 the year before. So, really, all Hue did was repeat what the last guy who got fired did. And he did it by mortgaging big time as well, with a defense that regressed severely. Far as I can tell he did worse than Cable in that case.


As far as the bold, it is documented fact by Greg Pappas that major factors into Cable's firing is that he was an absentee HC who allowed HueJax to convert the offense to PBS, to which Cable knew little about. Why we are forced to revisit this issue time and time again is beyond me. Cable was more interested in assaulting his staff and firing in his whore on the road than actually coaching the team. That resurgence when Hue was brought is the reason he was given the reigns by Davis.

Furthermore, it was that instance resurgence that people look at what when they openly wonder why Hue was fired (not saying I wanted him back or that he was perfect). What I am concerned about, and I think many others, is the philosophy of beating your head into a wall continuing to get the same results, it's Knapp's archaic approach which is the problem. Iirc, in week 4 or 5 Knapp essentially abandon the ZBS and reverted back to the PBS only to SLOWLY feed the ZBS back into the offense, which is what he SHOULD have done in the FIRST place is all.

I'm NOT saying the roster is great but they are professionals. I'm sorry but these players aren't as bad as they look, merely they are in the wrong system. You don't coach for high drafts. That's an outdated paradigm. Future draft picks aren't promised to you, nor is a HC coaches employment. Win now (ie: play significantly better) is the mantra of TODAY because people ARE doing it. We hafta stop giving people passes talking about "woe is us the roster is poor" at the very least this current team should be scrappy week in and out. I'm not advocating a firing as clearly new GM McKenzie has essentially admitted he could have done some things differently. Live and learn. Collectively most will get another season but don't just blindly give everyone (cept Knapp) a pass. Regardless of the industry EVERYONE is compared to their peers.



I don't agree with you much but this is the best post you have ever written.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3573
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
holyghost wrote:

As to the bold, which players are merely in the wrong system other than McFadden? It's gone over and over again, but I really don't see any system misfits of significance other than McFadden. It's not like we have 380 LB guards or something. And true deep ball receivers? None of them can catch deep anyway? I don't get who the cast of misfits are other than McFadden mainly.
So, essentially, you want to build the team around McFadden. An overrated, inconsistent, injury prone back who has never topped even 1200 yards and only broke 700 once, has achieved 1k once in his 4 year career which is not a hard plateau to reach for a starting back running without comittee - a full time starter which is rare today, never topped 10 TDs (hasnt even rushed for Cool, never ran for 200 yards in a game, and on and on. I love the player, but he is overrated by us and inconsistent. Even when healthy. Beyond the way that most fans see potential and forget to weigh performance which has been heavily discussed, he is in fact inconsistent which has not been broached nearly as much. Does anyone else notice the games where he seems slower, the games where he just doesn't seem to be in it? It happens, plenty.

I think you are trying to be super smart when you say you don't coach for high drafts. Because it is not and never was a paradigm to any coach, ever. Noone ever coaches for high drafts. But staffs do weigh their decisions and take things into account. And the decision is this team needed a new direction, one way or another, one time or another. Better sooner than later in my opinion, and that is the decision they made.

I'm not even going to bring Knapp into it, because I am not a supporter nor do I think many Raider fans are. And I don't believe even the GM is a big supporter after this year. But he installed the system they wanted and his lack of imagination and inability to adjust quickly is a bitter pill that came along with it.
Comparing to your peers is fine, so let's have it cut both ways. Indy for example. A nice one year turnaround. And comparing to us, on the other side of things, they benefitted from a full draft and the #1 pick. We had a decimated draft, perhaps the most widely pilfered draft in draft history, sold out to attempt to win now and a total fail at that. I assume you are unwilling to say that counts for something? That's my claim, that you can put us on par with other teams and their one year improvement and make the comparison. And I say that the comparison can be made when this staff has the opportunity to spend that one year purchasing and drafting players the same way every other team gets to. You want to blame this staff for the things that they were robbed of by Al Davis, Tom Cable, and Hue Jackson and their shortsighted choices. Because it's easier, or because you believe that 8-8 team was better than it really was. I think 8-8 is a stretch, and an illusion anyway. Because if you keep Hue around, this year, with Denver improving the way they have and Tebow out of this awful division, I can't possibly imagine how we would have been better than 6-10. Especially considering the nosedive we experienced at the end of the year last year. And considering the regression in performance of some of our players which had nothing to do with system change, such as Moore amongst others.. And of course the part you are forgetting, again. That the Hue offense, running this year, built around McFadden, who got hurt. Again. Praytell what would we do for those games other than lose, badly?


What players are in the wrong system? Where do we start?
The entire OL, sans Carlisle, was built for the PBS. The entire unit badly struggled until Knapp converted back to PBS. In addition, Barksdale who was traded for became a casualty of the scheme change.

Ford, before going to IR, and especially Moore have regressed from one of the most vertically dynamic corps to developing alligator arms and conveniently missing site reads over the middle. DHB who found great success in 2011 as a one-trick comeback route pony is no longer taking advantage of the huge cushion he still gets besides the fact he isn't considered a consistent receiving threat.

Until McFadden's injury, Reece was grossly under used

Knapp installed a system with a heavy reliance on a blocking TE that he doesn't have.

Palmer is playing in a heavy rollout and bootleg offense which also doesn't play to his strengths.

TK scoffed at the notion of being a NT yet was tabbed as the opening day NT which was a catastrophic failure.

Nearly every position on offense except Carlisle, Bergstrom, Brisiel & Goodson have been miscast. Knapp is to blame for that. If the FO wants to change the philosophy of the offense fine but build on what works as you feed in your system as the staff was ultimately forced to anyways after the season began. The coaching staff is PAID to do what nearly everyone else felt was obvious.

You are under the impression that anyone who disagrees with you wants to build around someone. Rather, if you don't have a transcendent player and you don't have the draft picks or cap room to acquire this type of player then you play to the strengths of the CURRENT roster, slowly implement your system as acquire the proper players to run it effectively. In short, run PBS until you can get rid of DMC somehow. Run a vertical routes and let DHB work the curl route until you can let his contract expire or cut him.

But as a newly hired CEO (ie:HC/OC) what you DON"T do is shut down the factory completely as you convert from gadgets to widgets. Because that's what gets you fired and it's your predecessor who reaps the benefits. HueJax is NOT the issue. What I am applauding Hue for is his open-minded approach to the offense. Period. Nothing more.

Furthermore draft picks aren't promised. To suggest tanking is counterproductive and leaves a financially challenged team with an empty stadium. Mark Davis is in financial dire straights he simply cannot afford to let the team tank for 2 - 3 as he stockpiles picks. Davis cannot afford pricey buyouts or hire premium coaches. Davis needs be competitive as he transitions the team and gets financially sound.


Inheritance tax is a [inappropriate/removed].
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like you began to state who is miscast then totally fizzled on it.

All you stated was the whole OL. and I'm saying it's immensely overstated. None of these guys are stubby slow 350 pounders. None of them are stictly "built for the PBS". They're not built with anything specific in mind. They ARE miscast, but only in the fact of the way they were drafted and put together. With NO system in mind that they all fit together.

You think Brnes, Veldheer, and Wisniewski are strict PBS players? they're not strictly PBS guys, they are relatively fit for either. In what way? None of them are oversize mashers, all of them are relatively mobile. We're not talking about Larry Allens here. And Satele, he functioned equally in PBS and ZBS, and was drafted for ZBS.

And moving on..

You mention Ford - He's never played a down in this offense! What the hell does he have to do with anything?! They couldn't have possibly misused the guy if he hasn't played a down.
Moore - you call him a deep ball player fit for Hue's offense. And I am telling you this - he was inconsistent last year, he's inconsistent this year, and he has dropped a number of deep balls sent his way this year that he didn't drop last year. No system made him lose the sticky hands.

As for DHB - even the offense last year and the staff were frustrated with his inability to do anything but run those same few routes effectively. He disappeared under Hue for like 3 weeks!!? What the hell do you remember??! He's as flawed and miscast as ever, because in any system it doesn't matter. All he can do is catch comebacks and it isn't enough from a starter.

On to Reece. He was grossly under used by Hue too!!! As bad or worse. And he's a much better runner in ZBS than I ever remember him being in the PBS.

Knapp system and the TE. He has a blocking TE, it's Gordon. You can't have a blocking TE on the field at the same time as a receiver unless you run 2 TE or have a great player - we do neither.
I don't get this part especially. I'm no fan of Knapp, but Hue severely neglected the TE as a weapon and Knapp has made Myers 10x better than he ever was. And you're actually using this part as an argument against the new offense. Previous offense did nothing with the TEs, just nothing.

The offense has rollouts, it's not heavy rollout based. Don't go overboard. And by the way, Palmer is much mobile than a guy like Rivers, Brady or Manning. He can manage just fine in rollouts. And he's doing just as well or better in this offense as he was in last year's, so what are you trying to argue there?


TK is a catastrophic failure in any position, you're arguing for my point here. I laid out the whole roster and showed you how the whole thing is scrapped together with no regard to how and why these players would fit together under a team philosophy. The problem this year is that the new staff went in the direction of one philosophy with a roster fit for none, and without the ability to turn over that roster to a new philosophy.
Hue did great in sqeezing every drop out of the lemon. But it was never going to get any better. I don't even know what systems Hue was running?! It's just some made up nonsense, as evidenced by the erratic success and failure of it week to week, and the total unpredictability of what Hue would do, and not in a good way. He came up with some great moves to go along eith some of the most mind boggling crap calls. His offense and team made as much sense as this roster did - none. It worked, 40% of the time, failed miserably 30% of the time, and led nowhere.


Knapp is to blame for many things, but not for the personnel being miscast. He didn't shape the personnel, and there is no team wide philosophy to how the personnel was put together. 75% of the starters have no position which they fit to a tee. The rest excel at none, or have none at all, or simply don't fit with the rest. You're prepared to blame Greg Knapp for that?!? Blame Al Davis for that bro, he threw this motley crew together. He drafted por potential, speed and strength, and totally ignored fit and system interminably. And Hue Jackson sucked up this past year's draft and cap in order to save his own megalomaniacal skin, thus delaying the rebuild we needed.


I totally get what you're saying about easing into it. And I am inclined to understand that point of view. But it's definitely not what this new staff did, and I am inclined to also understand their point of view of the importance of blowing this thing up. They both have credence to me. One important part of blowing it up is to put a dead stop to the laziness, scholarships, and lack of performance for pay. And to instill discipline with a no nonsense route to things. You run the risk of letting stuff like that linger when you shift the team gradually, just sayin..
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no getting around the fact that the majority of people who own professional sports teams are merely dabbling in their hobby and profit isn't their primary motivator. However in the case of the of Davis family they are not billionaires and the Raiders ARE their major income stream. Sadly, it appears Mark Davis has no clue as to how far in over his head he is to the determent of the very organization he genuinely loves. The Raiders will go the way of the Dodgers under McCourt until the team is ultimately wrestles from the Davis family hands. I would hate to see the Davis family basically walk away with relatively little. If Mark doesn't take drastic measures to secure a transition of assets from Carol should she pass unexpectedly he could be hit with a tax burden that could leave him begging someone to take the Raiders off his hands.

The issue is appreciation. Mark will ultimately pay taxes on how much the Raiders have gained in appreciation since his father acquired the team in 1972. The Raiders are worth approximately worth $761M of which the Davis owns %67 ($510M). Mark's bill could be 55% of 500M ($280.4M) with the Raiders being basically his only source of income. FWIW the Raiders are one of the lowest income producing teams in the NFL. A recipe that makes the Raiders ripe for a change in ownership.
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