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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If we're playing then... I think we lose. But playing by the current rules... I like our chances.


That's why I always find those comparisons/matchup so asinine... they basically grab two fish out of different oceans and throw them in the ring together without any of the context surrounding either of them.

You could make a pretty simple case that the 2008 Lions would beat the 1972 Dolphins, particularly under modern rules, based on the way the league has developed, athletes got bigger, and the rules changed. But that doesn't mean the 2008, 0-16 Lions were "better" than the undefeated Dolphins.

The way I approach those questions is moreso instead of directly comparing, say, the 2000 Ravens to the 2012 Ravens, take those individual matchups into account but moreso just evaluate how both teams did relative to their competition in their given year. That's why in that thread, I picked the 2000 Ravens. They were far more dominant in their road to the championship than the 2012 Ravens were, and in that sense, were the better team. Depending on what rules you want to put forth and what control variables are in place, the 2012 Ravens might be better just based on the fact that the standard of play trends upwards in the NFL, but at least for me, that doesn't mean they're actually better, it just means they played in a more modern era.
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wwhickok


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ BaltimoreTerp

I'll be honest and this is very much an outsiders view and not meant as a 'slight' to the Ravens at all; I don't necessarily think that the Ravens were the Best Team of 2012, however when it mattered, they did play the best. I think what they did this year was far more impressive than what they did in 2000. Why? Because they were on the edge of elimination 3 times. Yes, it did to an extent, take others losing for them to clinch, but at the same time, it took them to win also. When you enter the playoffs your record is 0-0, period, we all know that. The Ravens went 4-0 in a very impressive streak. Obviously as a Steeler fan, like Ravens fans feel about us, I hate the Ravens, but it's a respect that creates that 'hate'.

It can be debated forever and probably will be, which team was better, at the end of the day, I'm so over the fact that "ugh the friggin' Ravens, our division rival, won the Super Bowl". As much as I hated it, they earned it. Again while I don't think they were the best 2012 team overall, they played the best when it mattered, they got named the best because, unlike 31 other teams they achieved their goals. Imo, given the talent on the roster, I think if the 2000 Ravens played the 2012 Ravens (completely healthy) it would be a very competitive game, in fact..I think the 2012 team would win by a game clinching FG, it'd be all defense.
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Nucky


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Re: ... Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
nevermore wrote:
DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Nucky wrote:
Anyone remember the flea flicker from Kyle Boller to Randy Hymes on MNF? Never forgot that play. lol Probably cause it was the only big play of the season.

I forgot Randy Hymes existed. Unfortunately I remember Boller very well.

Don't hate, he beat the 18-1 Patriots.
Thanks again, Rex.

Speaking of which, I wonder what people's reactions would've been if after that game you made the prediction that the Ravens were gonna win their next Super Bowl before New England.


Don't you mean "almost beat"?


That was such a memorable game. My gut told me we had a chance before the game for some reason. It was right after the passing of Sean Taylor. Ray Ed and Willis Mcgahee played pissed off !

Then I remember getting spanked by the Colts next week.
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diamondbull424


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@BaltimoreTerp
@wwhickok

I agree with both perspectives on this. I do. I get what you mean BTerp... different control variables, scenarios can present to different results... and that's basically my point.

Going into that thread, all I see is that this 2012 squad has no shot against that team. But I don't think that's true. Like wwhickok said, we played our best when it mattered... so does every Super Bowl winning team, but in our case I think it certainly rings truest. We were an up and down team all season, but in the playoffs this team was another animal. We are a talented team and once the playoffs started, the talent on the roster not only synergised but seemed to step their collective games to another level.

So true, there's no guarantee either way who wins such a hypothetical matchup. But from top to bottom, I think this is the more complete team.

I think this comparison is very NBA-ish. In the NBA the playoffs is all about matchups, as in most any sport, but it's also about one team forcing the other team to play "their" game. And I think one of the biggest 'pluses' with this 2012 squad was their survivability in not just the playoffs, but the season. They were never the most dominating team, but we complimented them many-a-times for continuously finding new ways to win. They could win in a shoot out, they could win a defensive struggle, they could win by running the ball, they could win a comeback, they could make miracle plays, they could win off defensive plays, special teams plays... they could win by any conceivable measure.

And I think that's the underrated quality of this team. We've had better teams than this 12' team since that 00' squad won, 06' being probably one of the better examples. Yet this team had a quality that 06, 08, and 11 just didn't have... they could win games in so many different ways. They could face adversity better than any of those squads... and they also had a QB playing at an elite level (which helps).

So sure this wasn't a dominating squad... but IMO this isn't a case of two Godzilla vs. Mothra- winner equaling the most dominating, unstoppable force. I think while that 2000 team was an unstoppable force (thanks to that defense)... and they get a ton of credit for that... this 2012 squad is an immovable object. And just look at the Giants Super Bowl wins... they were similarly 'immovable objects'... and people don't appreciate that quality, it's not sexy. People like 'dominance' and simply equate that quality with being 'better'. But that's not always the case.

Honestly, I think this 2012 squad would have a shot to win no matter the variables because of their survivable quality, but I think both teams would bring it. So when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object... I think the winner is whichever team has HFA.
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RavensfanRD


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

diamondbull424 wrote:
RavensfanRD wrote:
diamondbull424 wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I happen to think I'm pretty reasonable in thinking that our 2012 Ravens team matches up pretty darn well with our 2000 squad... and would actually win.

Sure we aren't world beaters, but I think this team has been pretty underrated as a squad. Honestly, this is one of the reasons why I wish we would've blown out the 49ers because if that game ends how it started, suddenly that Denver game is the only close game on the resume and we have 3 blowouts to our record. So besides the obvious heart advantages of a blowout, it validates this team as being legit.

I think what that lightout and the comeback that followed, effected this team's legacy so much in terms of how good they actually are when they're rolling. This team has won and it's still not getting it's just due. Between having no chance against the 2000 Ravens (which I happen to think we matchup very well against and would win) and threads like the one where we were listed as one of the worst Super Bowl winners... I call bull. This team, when at it's best, was an extremely dangerous team. They weren't always healthy or motivated, but they were a team that survived long enough to turn it up a notch.

If not for that dumb stadium, this team would truly be allowed to be fully appreciated for what it could bring to the table when at it's best.

Now sure the 2000 team had a level of dominance that this team can't match, but matchups are seldom about simply roster talent, it's also about matchups and scheme. If both teams play tomorrow, with the current NFL structure as the rules, we matchup well with that team in virtually every area.

I see a game similar to last year's win over the Texans. I just don't think this team gets its just due for what they were able to accomplish and what they bring to the table. It's so annoying.


Like your enthusiasm, but our defense is killing somebody on this roster. Of course not the Greatest QB of All-Time, Joe Flacco. You think our guys couldn't get off the press coverage now. lol!

If we're playing then... I think we lose. But playing by the current rules... I like our chances.


Ahh, didn't catch it was meant with today's rules. Yeah, '00 Ravens don't stand a chance. Somebody probably gets ejected for hitting a ref after hearing "Defenseless Receiver". I still don't know what that means!
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GaTechRavens


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wwhickok wrote:
I think what they did this year was far more impressive than what they did in 2000. Why? Because they were on the edge of elimination 3 times. Yes, it did to an extent, take others losing for them to clinch, but at the same time, it took them to win also.


I...just don't see how that can work. The 2012 team showed resiliency, but the 2000 team was so good that they didn't need resiliency. They didn't need to overcome adversity (in game situations) because they were so dominant, they didn't face adversity in the first place. That clearly makes their run better in my mind.
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GaTechRavens wrote:
wwhickok wrote:
I think what they did this year was far more impressive than what they did in 2000. Why? Because they were on the edge of elimination 3 times. Yes, it did to an extent, take others losing for them to clinch, but at the same time, it took them to win also.


I...just don't see how that can work. The 2012 team showed resiliency, but the 2000 team was so good that they didn't need resiliency. They didn't need to overcome adversity (in game situations) because they were so dominant, they didn't face adversity in the first place. That clearly makes their run better in my mind.
Agreed. I wanted to get back to this at some point...

Quote:
I think what they did this year was far more impressive than what they did in 2000. Why? Because they were on the edge of elimination 3 times. Yes, it did to an extent, take others losing for them to clinch, but at the same time, it took them to win also. When you enter the playoffs your record is 0-0, period, we all know that. The Ravens went 4-0 in a very impressive streak


I think the part of analysis that's missing from this is that the 2000 Ravens also faced elimination in every game, were also 4-0 in the playoffs, etc. Their 'resiliency' took a different form; rather than having to leave it late in a couple of playoff showdowns, they coalesced around the Trent Dilfer offense and just destroyed everything in their path. It's not as if they didn't have their own 'clutch' moments during the playofffs... Ray Lewis literally snatching away Tennessee's chances at a comeback on the pick-six comes to mind, as does anything Shannon Sharpe did during that run. When things got tight, they were able to make plays, but they were able to avoid many close-game situations to begin with by just being so damn good.

They won their last 11 games of the season (lost their first game Dilfer started and then never lost again), winning by an average of 18 points a game. We all know about the defense, but for all the complaints about the offense, the Ravens were able to put up plenty of points on the board through a combination of what the defense did to help them out, the special teams, timely big plays, and a sturdy running game.

Whereas the 2012 Ravens took one one of those cliched "we won't be denied" teams that came through in the clutch, the 2000 Ravens transformed into a battering ram down the stretch that was ruthlessly dominant against anything in their way. Their Super Bowl win was one of the most one-sided, suffocating beatdowns in the game's history.

From the standpoint that I was 10 years old and thus not the same sort of fan I am today, and the fact that those close wins provided a different sort of euphoria, I'd probably say I enjoyed this Super Bowl run better. But the 2000 Ravens were operating on a level that could have rendered even the most resilient teams unable to keep going. I don't think anyone could possibly argue that the playoff run the 2012 Ravens went on wasn't impressive and significant, but that the 2000 Ravens were just... better. The 2012 Ravens were that gritty underdog with a compelling narrative... the 2000 Ravens were a bully that was just bigger and better than anything in their path.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Brian McFarland ‏@RavensSalaryCap
Per Adam Schefter: ‏Jaguars releasing S Dawan Landry today >> It really is amazing how many Ravens defenders leave for big $$$, only to fail


Has any player left Baltimore in free agency and had just as good or better of a career elsewhere?
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Quote:
Brian McFarland ‏@RavensSalaryCap
Per Adam Schefter: ‏Jaguars releasing S Dawan Landry today >> It really is amazing how many Ravens defenders leave for big $$$, only to fail


Has any player left Baltimore in free agency and had just as good or better of a career elsewhere?


Defensively, I can't think of anyone.

Priest Holmes killed it in KC, though.
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BareYourTeeth


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BaltimoreTerp wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Quote:
Brian McFarland ‏@RavensSalaryCap
Per Adam Schefter: ‏Jaguars releasing S Dawan Landry today >> It really is amazing how many Ravens defenders leave for big $$$, only to fail


Has any player left Baltimore in free agency and had just as good or better of a career elsewhere?


Defensively, I can't think of anyone.

Priest Holmes killed it in KC, though.


Think

Antwan Barnes?
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BareYourTeeth wrote:
BaltimoreTerp wrote:
coordinator0 wrote:
Quote:
Brian McFarland ‏@RavensSalaryCap
Per Adam Schefter: ‏Jaguars releasing S Dawan Landry today >> It really is amazing how many Ravens defenders leave for big $$$, only to fail


Has any player left Baltimore in free agency and had just as good or better of a career elsewhere?


Defensively, I can't think of anyone.

Priest Holmes killed it in KC, though.


Think

Antwan Barnes?


Barnes had one good season with San Diego and then went back to being irrelevant this season. He has been better there than he ever was with Baltimore though.

I forgot about Holmes. Embarassed That's taking it back a ways but he definitely succeeded in his post-Baltimore career.


Last edited by coordinator0 on Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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BaltimoreTerp


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BareYourTeeth wrote:
Think

Antwan Barnes?


Forgot about him.

More of a one year wonder, though.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brandon Stokeley. Jamie Sharper. Chester Taylor.

We including players we picked up in free agency? Cuz McGahee has.

How has Grubbs been doing?
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

coordinator0 wrote:
Quote:
Brian McFarland ‏@RavensSalaryCap
Per Adam Schefter: ‏Jaguars releasing S Dawan Landry today >> It really is amazing how many Ravens defenders leave for big $$$, only to fail


Has any player left Baltimore in free agency and had just as good or better of a career elsewhere?


Bart Scott for a short term with the Jets was pretty decent. Justin Bannan and Dwan Edwards are now starters for their respective teams after being backups for Baltimore.

That's all I can think of. OH, and Steven Hauschka who is now actually a pretty solid kicker for the Seahawks.
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GaTechRavens


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DontTazeMeBro wrote:
Brandon Stokeley. Jamie Sharper. Chester Taylor.

We including players we picked up in free agency? Cuz McGahee has.

How has Grubbs been doing?


Sharper was good, but I wouldn't say he did better in Houston.

Sam Adams is close. I don't think he ever topped what he did for the 2000 team, but he was outstanding with Buffalo.
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