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Flaccomania


Joined: 12 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

b-rave11 wrote:
This whole Rice scandal is the first time that I have legitimately feared for our organization. We have such a competent, solid organization from the top to the bottom and our on-field success over the past decade is a direct reflection of that.

I really like the triumvirate of Biscotti, Newsome, and Harbs and I would be devastated if any of them got fired or resigned over this -- I think it would be extremely detrimental to our team.

That being said I agree with some of the higher up posts that point out that DeCosta will most likely be a solid replacement for Newsome if Newsome were to leave the organization. From the article it seems like Harbs is probably safe which is ok -- he is a fine coach and although I'm still not sure exactly what he does he has coached a very consistent team if nothing else. What scares me is Biscotti. There are so many terrible owners around the league who simply cannot delegate. Jones in Dallas, Snyder in Washington, these guys have short tempers and no football sense yet insist on making terrible decision after terrible decision. Biscotti has been excellent on letting people who know more about football make the football decisions. If we lost him we would be losing the foundation of our franchise.

I get that a lot of mistakes were made, and that if Biscotti really did try to cover this whole Rice thing up it would be a really unethical move and would most likely merit him resigning -- but jeez its just scary/sad how far our team could fall because of this.


Bisciotti isn't going to "resign" -- he owns the team. The only way he'd go away is if he sold the team and this isnt an issue like in the NBA where Sterling was forced to sell his team.

Because Bisciotti seems to be part of the bad rep right now, I highly doubt he throws Cass under the bus to appease the public -- that'd be absolutely hypocritical. My guess is that the Ravens take the PR hit, Bisciotti takes the heat (like he seems to have been voluntarily doing), and let's it all blow over. If he were to fire somebody over this, I'd honestly lose a lot of respect for him as he seems to have been right there all along, and trying to convince to league to minimize a penalty, while a bad move, is not one that's going to cause him to sell the team. No chance in hell.

More than likely, we're just going to ride the wave, let the media latch onto another story and move on.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a completely kind of unrelated note and something I've been wondering since summer:

Why did the Ravens get such a bad rap for tweeting what Janay said? Lots of organizations and teams tweet what people say, but in this case, Janay said she regretted the role she played (IE, after watching the video it's clear she's talking about charging Rice and initiating what turned out to be the knockout blow), and the media/people everywhere collapsed on the Ravens like they as an organization were saying that Janay should be sorry.

I just don't get why the Ravens took so much PR heat for something they were just relaying to the public.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Because Bisciotti seems to be part of the bad rep right now, I highly doubt he throws Cass under the bus to appease the public -- that'd be absolutely hypocritical. My guess is that the Ravens take the PR hit, Bisciotti takes the heat (like he seems to have been voluntarily doing), and let's it all blow over. If he were to fire somebody over this, I'd honestly lose a lot of respect for him as he seems to have been right there all along, and trying to convince to league to minimize a penalty, while a bad move, is not one that's going to cause him to sell the team. No chance in hell.


Wait...the ESPN article reported that even after RELEASING Ray Rice, Bisciotti sent him a text message in which he told him he would have job with the Ravens after he retires and wishing him well. That hardly indicates to me that he had some change of heart about Rice or sincerity in cutting him as a result of the video's content as opposed to the PR nightmare it caused.

Not only that, but I see the same sort of assumptions being made here about everyone being safe. That's the same sort of assumption the NFL brass and Ravens made when they started this process. It's arrogance like that which led everyone here.

Quote:

I just don't get why the Ravens took so much PR heat for something they were just relaying to the public.


Many people take offense that she blamed herself to any degree, and the Ravens tweeting of it isn't just repeating what was said - it places emphasis.

I don't agree with the first point and I resent the idea some people have where they can tell people how they are supposed to feel in a particular situation, but that is the 'reason.' Janay's statements did not fit the stereotype of a DV victim certain segments of the media. And if you don't fit what they want, it angers them.

Something entirely ignored in all of this - all of these media outlets are condemning the NFL for not caring about the victims. Meanwhile, they are dragging them through the mud and exposing their personal lives.

I guarantee Janay Rice wasn't happy that the video was posted. The mothers of Adrian Peterson's two children have expressed their horror that pictures of their children from the investigation were leaked.

Meanwhile, the media outlets that are condemning the NFL for insensitivity don't skip a beat as they report it all and broadcast it to the world. Not even the slightest sense of hypocrisy sinks in.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So be mad at Janay for being stupid and saying she's sorry when she's really got nothing to be sorry for (mostly).

Don't be mad at the Ravens PR team for doing their job and tweeting what's being said at the post conference.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:

Wait...the ESPN article reported that even after RELEASING Ray Rice, Bisciotti sent him a text message in which he told him he would have job with the Ravens after he retires and wishing him well. That hardly indicates to me that he had some change of heart about Rice or sincerity in cutting him as a result of the video's content as opposed to the PR nightmare it caused.


So now Bisciotti is a bad guy for recognizing a guy he knows well made an awful mistake and wishes him well? That after all this has passed, that Bisciotti still wants to do what he can to help Rice? God forbid.

Quote:
Not only that, but I see the same sort of assumptions being made here about everyone being safe. That's the same sort of assumption the NFL brass and Ravens made when they started this process. It's arrogance like that which led everyone here.


They aren't assumptions, they are opinions. What logical sense does it make for an owner, who has been in the middle of this, to fire people over the same mistakes he made? Would that really help put the team in a better light? And while this is a horrible thing to cover up, it's certainly not on the level of racism which caused Sterling to sell his team. It makes the Ravens and the organization look bad, but not something that will force Bisciotti out of the NFL, not even close.

Could somebody get canned over this? Sure. But personally, I'd lose more respect for Bisciotti doing that than if he kept everyone because it'd show he's doing it purely to appease the masses rather than what's right for the organization. He's taken the blame thus far and I highly doubt that changes by him sacrificing somebody underneath him.
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It makes the Ravens and the organization look bad, but not something that will force Bisciotti out of the NFL, not even close.


This is your 'assumption' right here. The fact is, the NFL has no control over this situation, and owners in the NFL have been forced out for less offensive things than what Bisciotti has been accused of.

The ESPN report makes clear that he knew the contents of the tape, and didn't care. The ESPN also states that his lobbying of Goodell was the reason for the 2 game ban. Then, finally, we have the report that Rice himself viewed Bisciotti's offer as a bribe to stay quiet after being released. Whatever benevolent motives you want to ascribe to Bioscitti, the perception is out there now, and it very well could threaten his ownership.

The idea that the Ravens and/or league office can just take a bunker mentality and let this all die down is absurd. Ray Rice was arrested in February. It's now September.

ESPN and other media outlets are just going to keep digging. When ESPN, who has a billion dollar TV deal with the NFL, is willing to attack the league like this - it's a strong indication that, no, the story isn't going to die and the NFL can't control it. The NFL has exerted leverage over it in the past on similar issues, but clearly that's now all out the window.

I'm sure I won't be allowed to discuss the Sterling case, but it's laughable to me that you consider his comments in a personal conversation worse than some of the things Bioscitti and the Ravens are now accused of. Among those things includes lying through their teeth to fans and the media throughout all of this.

Quote:

Could somebody get canned over this? Sure. But personally, I'd lose more respect for Bisciotti doing that than if he kept everyone because it'd show he's doing it purely to appease the masses rather than what's right for the organization. He's taken the blame thus far and I highly doubt that changes by him sacrificing somebody underneath him.


Yet, you fail to explain how its any different from him cutting Rice after the videos release when you would have to be willfully naive to think he didn't know its content before hand (if he had not actually seen it - I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be the next fact - ESPN only backtracked from that claim slightly after their initial report).

He cut Rice to appease the masses. He is already a hypocrite who showed a lack of spine. So, there is no difference between firing underlings now and what he did to Rice who he either genuinely still likes/supports privately, or attempted to 'bribe.'

Quote:


So now Bisciotti is a bad guy for recognizing a guy he knows well made an awful mistake and wishes him well? That after all this has passed, that Bisciotti still wants to do what he can to help Rice? God forbid.


Bioscitti could be anything. It doesn't matter. Sort of like with players or any other public figures. Perception matters more than reality.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
Quote:
It makes the Ravens and the organization look bad, but not something that will force Bisciotti out of the NFL, not even close.


This is your 'assumption' right here. The fact is, the NFL has no control over this situation, and owners in the NFL have been forced out for less offensive things than what Bisciotti has been accused of.


No, it's an opinion.

And can you back up your claim of an owner being forced to sell his team for 'less'?

Quote:
The ESPN report makes clear that he knew the contents of the tape, and didn't care.


"Didn't care" is quite a statement to make. "Wanted to minimize the ramifications" is more accurate.

Quote:
The ESPN also states that his lobbying of Goodell was the reason for the 2 game ban.


ESPN states that they did lobby for 2 games, but did not cite it as the "reason", simply that it occurred.

Quote:
Then, finally, we have the report that Rice himself viewed Bisciotti's offer as a bribe to stay quiet after being released. Whatever benevolent motives you want to ascribe to Bioscitti, the perception is out there now, and it very well could threaten his ownership.


It "could", sure, but I highly doubt it happens.

Quote:
The idea that the Ravens and/or league office can just take a bunker mentality and let this all die down is absurd. Ray Rice was arrested in February. It's now September.


And it's simply being brought up over and over due to new video, new press conferences, etc. Eventually, that will blow over too like it essentially did until Goodell's press conference.

Quote:
ESPN and other media outlets are just going to keep digging. When ESPN, who has a billion dollar TV deal with the NFL, is willing to attack the league like this - it's a strong indication that, no, the story isn't going to die and the NFL can't control it. The NFL has exerted leverage over it in the past on similar issues, but clearly that's now all out the window.


Disagree. They've done their digging, gotten their report out there but just like when AP messed up, they jumped all over him and the Rice situation took a back seat to the public. That's my point.

Quote:
I'm sure I won't be allowed to discuss the Sterling case, but it's laughable to me that you consider his comments in a personal conversation worse than some of the things Bioscitti and the Ravens are now accused of. Among those things includes lying through their teeth to fans and the media throughout all of this.


I never said it was worse, I'm implying it had larger ramifications and thus why he was forced to sell his team. Bisciotti trying to minimize the penalties to the best of his ability is a very different action and not one that's going to cause him to be forced to sell his team. It's a bad look, but it's not one that players are refusing to play for him like they were with Sterling.

Quote:
Yet, you fail to explain how its any different from him cutting Rice after the videos release when you would have to be willfully naive to think he didn't know its content before hand (if he had not actually seen it - I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be the next fact - ESPN only backtracked from that claim slightly after their initial report).


He explained it already -- until he saw it, despite Ray's description of it, he let his personal relationship cloud his judgement. Once he saw it, that cloud disappeared, it hit him a lot closer to home and made a larger impact (no pun intended) and he reacted accordingly.

Quote:
He cut Rice to appease the masses. He is already a hypocrite who showed a lack of spine. So, there is no difference between firing underlings now and what he did to Rice who he either genuinely still likes/supports privately, or attempted to 'bribe.'


There is absolutely a gigantic difference. One was cutting the person involved in the action after initially going lenient. The other would be firing a person for doing the exact same actions he's taken himself. The entire Ravens organization still supports Rice as a person, even the players after the Steelers game said they played for him -- they're a family. They all care for Rice on a personal level -- they just simply could not have him play for the Ravens until he takes care of his personal issues and becomes a better person.

Quote:


So now Bisciotti is a bad guy for recognizing a guy he knows well made an awful mistake and wishes him well? That after all this has passed, that Bisciotti still wants to do what he can to help Rice? God forbid.


Quote:
Bioscitti could be anything. It doesn't matter. Sort of like with players or any other public figures. Perception matters more than reality.


Absolutely, to the public perception matters most -- but in this situation, that perception isn't on the level of a racist owner and thus won't be one that forced Bisciotti to sell his team. It paints a picture of ownership who were a bit more concerned about the well being of their football team over what's morally right, sure, but that's a far cry from what we've seen with owners forced to sell the team.
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Flaccomania


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, I'm exhausted about this topic and I've made my points clear. Time will tell who is right and wrong. I won't be discussing the topic any further.
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coordinator0


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CKSteeler wrote:
This is your 'assumption' right here. The fact is, the NFL has no control over this situation, and owners in the NFL have been forced out for less offensive things than what Bisciotti has been accused of.


Who?
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought this was interesting:


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Mancunian Raven


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flaccomania wrote:
CKSteeler wrote:

Wait...the ESPN article reported that even after RELEASING Ray Rice, Bisciotti sent him a text message in which he told him he would have job with the Ravens after he retires and wishing him well. That hardly indicates to me that he had some change of heart about Rice or sincerity in cutting him as a result of the video's content as opposed to the PR nightmare it caused.


So now Bisciotti is a bad guy for recognizing a guy he knows well made an awful mistake and wishes him well? That after all this has passed, that Bisciotti still wants to do what he can to help Rice? God forbid.


Yeah, I may be hopelessly naive (though I was pushing for Rice to be cut from the day after this happened, so I won't be accused of blindly defending him), but that read to me like Steve letting it be known that he still cared about Ray, and wanted to do what he could for him.

You don't just cut someone out of your life (or your organisation) completely if they make a mistake, no matter how serious the mistake. A person still deserves to be supported and helped, which was the main argument I accepted for Rice not being cut in the first place. So Ray Rice can't be a Ravens player any more, but that doesn't mean that people within the Ravens organisation can't let him know that they'd like to do what they can for him.

Trying to imply anything more than that is dangerous, from a legal standpoint, which is why ESPN have been careful to shroud all of their accusations in ambiguity and 'unnamed sources' and words that lead readers to a conclusion without ever spelling it out. An artful piece of writing.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The plot thickens...

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24717981/ravens-spokesman-well-address-espn-inaccuracies-after-browns-game
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CKSteeler


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

And can you back up your claim of an owner being forced to sell his team for 'less'?


Eddie DeBartolo:
Quote:
DeBartolo was involved in the corruption case of former Louisiana governor Edwin Edwards. DeBartolo pleaded guilty to a charge of failing to report a felony, and received a $1 million fine and two years of probation in return for his testimony against Edwards.[5] Edwards was on trial for extortion and other charges, among which were the $400,000 he demanded from DeBartolo to gain a river boat casino license.[5] DeBartolo never received the license, was fined by the NFL, and barred from active control of the 49ers for one year


He was extorted by a corrupt politician, and because the Feds wanted his testimony, he was forced to relinquish control over the 49ers.

Quote:
"Didn't care" is quite a statement to make. "Wanted to minimize the ramifications" is more accurate.


Um, no. If he was terribly concerned with what Rice had done (not saying he should have been), his main concern wouldn't have been stopping the tape from becoming public and only giving Rice 2 games.

Whether you think it's because he believed in Rice as a person or because of his value to the franchise is irrelevant to that point.

Quote:

And it's simply being brought up over and over due to new video, new press conferences, etc. Eventually, that will blow over too like it essentially did until Goodell's press conference.


Um, when did anything 'blow over' during the last week? ESPN spent a few weeks working on that story they just printed. The media has been harping on Goodell's silence for the past week. You had the Peterson fiasco and the NFL teams adapting on the fly to the media outrage. Nothing disappeared.

There are still parts of this story for journalists to cover and dig on, so it's not going anywhere. And if there is any smoking gun evidence that the Ravens and/or league office saw the video, it's over for everyone involved.

Peterson's screw-up was only fuel onto the Rice fire. I don't know how anyone could see it otherwise unless they are just hoping and praying this story goes away.

Quote:
I never said it was worse, I'm implying it had larger ramifications and thus why he was forced to sell his team.


Well, this statement certainly can be construed that way:
And while this is a horrible thing to cover up, it's certainly not on the level of racism which caused Sterling to sell his team.

that perception isn't on the level of a racist owner and thus won't be one that forced Bisciotti to sell his team.


But regardless, if we are just talking about ramifications, the entire league office has been brought into this mess. If Goodell is fired and the perception isn't that Bisciotti pushed him for the 2 games, then your entire point is moot.

Quote:

He explained it already -- until he saw it, despite Ray's description of it, he let his personal relationship cloud his judgement. Once he saw it, that cloud disappeared, it hit him a lot closer to home and made a larger impact (no pun intended) and he reacted accordingly.


So, he knew that Rice knocked her out with a punch, the video was described as being terrible, and he and Cass quickly changed the subject to how they could keep it from coming to light in court...and even after the release, Bisciotti sent that text to Rice which, according to your interpretation, showed he still liked the guy.

And your interpretation of that timeline/course of events is simply that it didn't hit home until after? When I point out willful naivety, this is a perfect example.

If they didn't know that video was hideous, they wouldn't have spent their time discussing ways to keep it away from the public.

Quote:
There is absolutely a gigantic difference. One was cutting the person involved in the action after initially going lenient. The other would be firing a person for doing the exact same actions he's taken himself. The entire Ravens organization still supports Rice as a person, even the players after the Steelers game said they played for him -- they're a family. They all care for Rice on a personal level -- they just simply could not have him play for the Ravens until he takes care of his personal issues and becomes a better person.


I suppose if we go with your rosy interpretation above, sure. You have a little wiggle room.

If you use some common sense and realize that a billionaire like Bisciotti wasn't ignorant of what Rice did (and most likely saw the video - I still find it laughable to claim that their investigators never showed it to the brass - this is the story Ravens fans should be scared of), you see that he didn't really care about Rice's actions. Or, at the least, he didn't find them so reprehensible to cancel out what Rice had done. And nothing has likely changed because of the video (the text, according to your interpretation, supports that).

So, he cut Rice because of public backlash. It is essentially the same as firing people and letting them take the fall for the cover-up.

Quote:

Absolutely, to the public perception matters most -- but in this situation, that perception isn't on the level of a racist owner and thus won't be one that forced Bisciotti to sell his team. It paints a picture of ownership who were a bit more concerned about the well being of their football team over what's morally right, sure, but that's a far cry from what we've seen with owners forced to sell the team.


What I like is how completely you have disavowed Rice to support the Ravens in all of this.

I also enjoy the comparison here between DV and some half-senile old man babbling to a girl a fraction of his age in a private conversation.

Quote:

Yeah, I may be hopelessly naive (though I was pushing for Rice to be cut from the day after this happened, so I won't be accused of blindly defending him), but that read to me like Steve letting it be known that he still cared about Ray, and wanted to do what he could for him.


I never discounted this, but the ESPN story (filled with quotes from Rice's 'best friend') strongly implies that it was in fact a form of a bribe. They attribute this view to Rice himself. The whole story went easy on Rice most likely because he set up those interviews with his 'best friend' and simply didn't want to openly go against the Ravens/league at this point in time.
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the three games I've watched today have three former raven kickers...
Cundiff
Hauschka
Gano
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wackywabbit


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sp6488 wrote:
So the three games I've watched today have three former raven kickers...
Cundiff
Hauschka
Gano


So far 2/2 have choked
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