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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22679
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Patience is over rated when you are running on the treadmill of mediocrity.

Lovie has had 9 years to build a balanced team that was a consistent playoff team and he has not done that.

So we allow him to fire his 4th OC and rebuild an offence again? Because whether you want to admit it or not our offences problems are not getting fixed. Mike Tice is really bad at calling plays.

I am not for blowing up the defence.

I am for a new head coach that can develop an offence, in less than 9 years, and if that comes with a new defence so be it.

And we do not even know if a new coach would blow the defence. If we bring in an offensive guy like Pete CarMichael he might choose to keep them.

But if it is between a fresh start for this team and keeping an aging defence in tact I choose a fresh start.


If we try and turn our D into a 3-4 D then you are blowing up the D…

Lovie hasn’t had 9 years to build a team…Jerry Angelo did because at the end of the day he was the guy responsible for putting talent on the field…his inability to do so cost him his job…it would have been easy for the ownership to let Lovie go at the same time but they can see the value he brings as an HC…some of his hires have been poor...but I'm not even ready to include Tice in that statement...after only 13 games in the job...

You are willing to scarify a top D to get a more exiting offence on the field…an offence ran by someone who we don’t even know if he can be an HC and who has never even been the driving force behind the Saints offence.
Smith had as much or more to do with the Bears personnel as Angelo. Would Angelo, on his own, gone out and brought that hoard of over the hill bums from St Louis over here? NO. This team is Smith's team AS MUCH AS ANYONE.

His winning seasons are FAR too inconsistent for him to remain as coach of the Bears. Winning every other year is NOT good enough. He has been exposed once too often by another December collapse and people are tried of it. I am a mild critic compared to what is coming across the air waves on sports babble wrt to Smith.

Now is the time to decide who is going to be next.


Altho he didn't because he isn't Andy Reid or Bill Belichick.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22679
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7911
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7911
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Patience is over rated when you are running on the treadmill of mediocrity.

Lovie has had 9 years to build a balanced team that was a consistent playoff team and he has not done that.

So we allow him to fire his 4th OC and rebuild an offence again? Because whether you want to admit it or not our offences problems are not getting fixed. Mike Tice is really bad at calling plays.

I am not for blowing up the defence.

I am for a new head coach that can develop an offence, in less than 9 years, and if that comes with a new defence so be it.

And we do not even know if a new coach would blow the defence. If we bring in an offensive guy like Pete CarMichael he might choose to keep them.

But if it is between a fresh start for this team and keeping an aging defence in tact I choose a fresh start.


If we try and turn our D into a 3-4 D then you are blowing up the D…

Lovie hasn’t had 9 years to build a team…Jerry Angelo did because at the end of the day he was the guy responsible for putting talent on the field…his inability to do so cost him his job…it would have been easy for the ownership to let Lovie go at the same time but they can see the value he brings as an HC…some of his hires have been poor...but I'm not even ready to include Tice in that statement...after only 13 games in the job...

You are willing to scarify a top D to get a more exiting offence on the field…an offence ran by someone who we don’t even know if he can be an HC and who has never even been the driving force behind the Saints offence.
Smith had as much or more to do with the Bears personnel as Angelo. Would Angelo, on his own, gone out and brought that hoard of over the hill bums from St Louis over here? NO. This team is Smith's team AS MUCH AS ANYONE.

His winning seasons are FAR too inconsistent for him to remain as coach of the Bears. Winning every other year is NOT good enough. He has been exposed once too often by another December collapse and people are tried of it. I am a mild critic compared to what is coming across the air waves on sports babble wrt to Smith.

Now is the time to decide who is going to be next.


Altho he didn't because he isn't Andy Reid or Bill Belichick.
There wasn't a player picked up or drafted which did not have Smith's approval after 06. Stop trying to exculpate Smith from personnel decisions, it won't work here.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7911
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
PacAttack04 wrote:
I mean, I always see Bears fans worried about the core of their defense. But as they replace their stars, they are going to have young players reaching their prime.

Guys like Henry Melton and Major Wright for sure I feel established they can always be playmakers on defense no matter the talent around them. At DE, you've invested in young talent such at Wootton as at LE, and McClein possibly at RE, and when guys like Idonije and Peppers leave, they could establish themselves as legitimate starting options. Paea is already at NT and he's shown some success and will likely be improving. Yes, there's a rebuild coming, but the team has slowly been adding high pickings, adding good young players, to the point where maybe when you replace Urlacher this year, you pick up a 3rd Round LB to eventually replace Briggs.

You say you need to rebuild, but Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs, and Tillman are still playing at a high level, so why not slowly replace them? I feel that's what you have been doing on the D-line, then you move onto the LBs or secondary. Rebuilds don't necessarily have to take a long time


Exactly…but some don’t have the patience to see that.
Some won't tolerate the yearly December collapse. It is easy to see why Packer fans defend Smith but if McCarthy's record was like Smith - winning only every other year - he would have been sent packing from Cheeseville long ago.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22679
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22679
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Patience is over rated when you are running on the treadmill of mediocrity.

Lovie has had 9 years to build a balanced team that was a consistent playoff team and he has not done that.

So we allow him to fire his 4th OC and rebuild an offence again? Because whether you want to admit it or not our offences problems are not getting fixed. Mike Tice is really bad at calling plays.

I am not for blowing up the defence.

I am for a new head coach that can develop an offence, in less than 9 years, and if that comes with a new defence so be it.

And we do not even know if a new coach would blow the defence. If we bring in an offensive guy like Pete CarMichael he might choose to keep them.

But if it is between a fresh start for this team and keeping an aging defence in tact I choose a fresh start.


If we try and turn our D into a 3-4 D then you are blowing up the D…

Lovie hasn’t had 9 years to build a team…Jerry Angelo did because at the end of the day he was the guy responsible for putting talent on the field…his inability to do so cost him his job…it would have been easy for the ownership to let Lovie go at the same time but they can see the value he brings as an HC…some of his hires have been poor...but I'm not even ready to include Tice in that statement...after only 13 games in the job...

You are willing to scarify a top D to get a more exiting offence on the field…an offence ran by someone who we don’t even know if he can be an HC and who has never even been the driving force behind the Saints offence.
Smith had as much or more to do with the Bears personnel as Angelo. Would Angelo, on his own, gone out and brought that hoard of over the hill bums from St Louis over here? NO. This team is Smith's team AS MUCH AS ANYONE.

His winning seasons are FAR too inconsistent for him to remain as coach of the Bears. Winning every other year is NOT good enough. He has been exposed once too often by another December collapse and people are tried of it. I am a mild critic compared to what is coming across the air waves on sports babble wrt to Smith.

Now is the time to decide who is going to be next.


Altho he didn't because he isn't Andy Reid or Bill Belichick.
There wasn't a player picked up or drafted which did not have Smith's approval after 06. Stop trying to exculpate Smith from personnel decisions, it won't work here.


No one is trying to say Lovie didn't have "a say" in those picks...but Jerry Angelo was the deciding factor...hence why he is no longer in football.
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22679
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
PacAttack04 wrote:
I mean, I always see Bears fans worried about the core of their defense. But as they replace their stars, they are going to have young players reaching their prime.

Guys like Henry Melton and Major Wright for sure I feel established they can always be playmakers on defense no matter the talent around them. At DE, you've invested in young talent such at Wootton as at LE, and McClein possibly at RE, and when guys like Idonije and Peppers leave, they could establish themselves as legitimate starting options. Paea is already at NT and he's shown some success and will likely be improving. Yes, there's a rebuild coming, but the team has slowly been adding high pickings, adding good young players, to the point where maybe when you replace Urlacher this year, you pick up a 3rd Round LB to eventually replace Briggs.

You say you need to rebuild, but Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs, and Tillman are still playing at a high level, so why not slowly replace them? I feel that's what you have been doing on the D-line, then you move onto the LBs or secondary. Rebuilds don't necessarily have to take a long time


Exactly…but some don’t have the patience to see that.
Some won't tolerate the yearly December collapse. It is easy to see why Packer fans defend Smith but if McCarthy's record was like Smith - winning only every other year - he would have been sent packing from Cheeseville long ago.


Nothing to do with injury at all the last two years huh.
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AZBearsFan


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Joined: 04 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.

Pace also strongly resembled the Angelo move of trying to catch lightning in a bottle with a vet past his prime ala Ruben Brown, and Manu was a Martz guy. As for the defense how do we know Angelo didn't bring them in because he knew they had had success in Lovie's scheme before?
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 9728
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
PacAttack04 wrote:
I mean, I always see Bears fans worried about the core of their defense. But as they replace their stars, they are going to have young players reaching their prime.

Guys like Henry Melton and Major Wright for sure I feel established they can always be playmakers on defense no matter the talent around them. At DE, you've invested in young talent such at Wootton as at LE, and McClein possibly at RE, and when guys like Idonije and Peppers leave, they could establish themselves as legitimate starting options. Paea is already at NT and he's shown some success and will likely be improving. Yes, there's a rebuild coming, but the team has slowly been adding high pickings, adding good young players, to the point where maybe when you replace Urlacher this year, you pick up a 3rd Round LB to eventually replace Briggs.

You say you need to rebuild, but Peppers, Urlacher, Briggs, and Tillman are still playing at a high level, so why not slowly replace them? I feel that's what you have been doing on the D-line, then you move onto the LBs or secondary. Rebuilds don't necessarily have to take a long time


Exactly…but some don’t have the patience to see that.
Some won't tolerate the yearly December collapse. It is easy to see why Packer fans defend Smith but if McCarthy's record was like Smith - winning only every other year - he would have been sent packing from Cheeseville long ago.


Nothing to do with injury at all the last two years huh.


All teams deal with injuries it cannot be execuse.

Every year guys are going to get hurt and you have to rise above it.

Last year with Jay it was different, QB is the exception when it comes to injuries.
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IronMike84


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saying a guy is an "Angelo pick" or a "Lovie guy" is all hearsay, and you guys just makeup whatever you feel like to back your arguments.

Unless you were in the room or have solid evidence on this stuff, it's all just speculation.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7911
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7911
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Patience is over rated when you are running on the treadmill of mediocrity.

Lovie has had 9 years to build a balanced team that was a consistent playoff team and he has not done that.

So we allow him to fire his 4th OC and rebuild an offence again? Because whether you want to admit it or not our offences problems are not getting fixed. Mike Tice is really bad at calling plays.

I am not for blowing up the defence.

I am for a new head coach that can develop an offence, in less than 9 years, and if that comes with a new defence so be it.

And we do not even know if a new coach would blow the defence. If we bring in an offensive guy like Pete CarMichael he might choose to keep them.

But if it is between a fresh start for this team and keeping an aging defence in tact I choose a fresh start.


If we try and turn our D into a 3-4 D then you are blowing up the D…

Lovie hasn’t had 9 years to build a team…Jerry Angelo did because at the end of the day he was the guy responsible for putting talent on the field…his inability to do so cost him his job…it would have been easy for the ownership to let Lovie go at the same time but they can see the value he brings as an HC…some of his hires have been poor...but I'm not even ready to include Tice in that statement...after only 13 games in the job...

You are willing to scarify a top D to get a more exiting offence on the field…an offence ran by someone who we don’t even know if he can be an HC and who has never even been the driving force behind the Saints offence.
Smith had as much or more to do with the Bears personnel as Angelo. Would Angelo, on his own, gone out and brought that hoard of over the hill bums from St Louis over here? NO. This team is Smith's team AS MUCH AS ANYONE.

His winning seasons are FAR too inconsistent for him to remain as coach of the Bears. Winning every other year is NOT good enough. He has been exposed once too often by another December collapse and people are tried of it. I am a mild critic compared to what is coming across the air waves on sports babble wrt to Smith.

Now is the time to decide who is going to be next.


Altho he didn't because he isn't Andy Reid or Bill Belichick.
There wasn't a player picked up or drafted which did not have Smith's approval after 06. Stop trying to exculpate Smith from personnel decisions, it won't work here.


No one is trying to say Lovie didn't have "a say" in those picks...but Jerry Angelo was the deciding factor...hence why he is no longer in football.
Angelo was the sacrificial victim thrown to the Lynch Mob rather than bite the bullet and get rid of both. How does Smith get the credit for the Bears success while Angelo gets the blame?
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7911
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.

Pace also strongly resembled the Angelo move of trying to catch lightning in a bottle with a vet past his prime ala Ruben Brown, and Manu was a Martz guy. As for the defense how do we know Angelo didn't bring them in because he knew they had had success in Lovie's scheme before?
It didn't take past the first exhibition game to see there was nothing similar in the two players. Brown showed no deterioration in his skills while Pace was a shadow of himself. There wasn't a player put on the Bears without Smith's approval.
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ChicagoAl


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IronMike84 wrote:
Saying a guy is an "Angelo pick" or a "Lovie guy" is all hearsay, and you guys just makeup whatever you feel like to back your arguments.

Unless you were in the room or have solid evidence on this stuff, it's all just speculation.
There wasn't a player put on the Bears without Smith's approval. That is the bottom line. Angelo never went out and found players without that, never said "here he is, coach him up."
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