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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7846
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.


No they don't...people just know who has the final say in acquiring talent.
It is undeniable that Angelo was vilified here way out of proportion to his faults. Unless I press the point no one acknowledged that Smith helped make those decisions and got little blame for them.

Nobody gave Lovie a full pass then and few if any are doing so now. Remember the outcry here after the 2009 season when Lovie WASN'T fired? I do - I even wore this sig for a while about the debacle of a press conference the day after the season ended:



People just held Angelo more accountable because he had the final say. For all the criticism Lovie takes he has a team with probably the 2nd worst (behind AZ) OL in the entire league and the 31st most productive passing game (and only ahead of MIN because Harvin got hurt) and yet this team is 8-5. He isn't above criticism but he should credit for that, same as he should get credit for the 2010 team reaching the NFCCG with a porous offense. He hasn't won the big game (yet) and that is the only reason he isn't revered. Had we won SB XLI with no other differences to any other outcomes he would be as revered as Ditka. For what it's worth, Ditka made 3 NFCCG in 11 seasons with decidedly more talented teams than Lovie has had and he is a legend. Lovie has made 2 NFCCG in 9 seasons with teams annually having inferior talent at several key positions and people can't wait to run him out of town. Lovie isn't without flaws but he isn't the complete numbskull many make him out to be either.
Once Ditka got things in hand he won year in year out not every other year. His "GM", Vanisi, was fired and not replaced.

Smith cannot be mentioned in the same breath with Ditka by Bears fans.

Coaches don't get ten years to win the Super Bowls from teams which want to win it. Especially not when they limp long year after year. Lovie had two real good years and a decent on and could not get it done.

He has to go. There is nothing hasty or vindictive about this.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7846
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Lovie is not an idiot and he is not a bad football coach.

He is just not the guy who is going to turn the Bears into a top tier team. He has had 9 years and we are still incredibly inconsistent.

We need a new voice, a new vision and someone who can lead us to being a competent offense. Lovie has been given more than enough time and it is time for a change.

Andy Ried is not an idiot or a bad coach and he has been to 4 NFCCG and a Superbowl, but after 10 years or more you start to realize that while your coach is good he is not good enough.

I appreciate the comments of the last 2 posters.

Competent offense would be great - nobody will disagree with that - but if it comes at the expense of competent defense then how is the team any better off? An incomplete team is an incomplete team regardless of where the deficiencies lie.


But you are assuming the next coach cannot maintain the defence. You are assuming that he won't hire a really good defensive coordinator. Lovie is not the only guy in the league that can coach defence.

I an not assuming that Lovie is never going to build an offence. Lovie has had 9 years to bring balance to this team and has failed.

It is time to give someone else a shot to do it.

I really don't hate Lovie, but after 9 years I am fairly certain he is never going to lead us to where we need to go.


But at the same time you are presuming that the next coach could maintain the quality we have had on D...or that the next head coach will be a good one...

And it has never been Lovie's job to "build" an offence...that is on the GM to provide the talent to do so...before this year we are extremely talent deficient on the outside and Emery fixed that in one year...now we are still extremely talent deficient on the Oline...if Emery fixes that we might have half a chance to have a good offence but until we have the talent to do so no one should be thrown under the bus.
Of course, it is Lovie's job to build an offense, as it is to build a defense. He does that with the players Emery and he agree will help do that. The GM has only slightly more influence on what players are assembled than Smith. You are not going to find many who will shove unwanted players down a coach's throat or ignore what they tell them they need. Heck, Player Personnel probably has more to do with who is taken than either of them.
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TexasBearsFan


Joined: 02 Dec 2009
Posts: 1204
Location: Waco, TX
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.


No they don't...people just know who has the final say in acquiring talent.
It is undeniable that Angelo was vilified here way out of proportion to his faults. Unless I press the point no one acknowledged that Smith helped make those decisions and got little blame for them.

Nobody gave Lovie a full pass then and few if any are doing so now. Remember the outcry here after the 2009 season when Lovie WASN'T fired? I do - I even wore this sig for a while about the debacle of a press conference the day after the season ended:



People just held Angelo more accountable because he had the final say. For all the criticism Lovie takes he has a team with probably the 2nd worst (behind AZ) OL in the entire league and the 31st most productive passing game (and only ahead of MIN because Harvin got hurt) and yet this team is 8-5. He isn't above criticism but he should credit for that, same as he should get credit for the 2010 team reaching the NFCCG with a porous offense. He hasn't won the big game (yet) and that is the only reason he isn't revered. Had we won SB XLI with no other differences to any other outcomes he would be as revered as Ditka. For what it's worth, Ditka made 3 NFCCG in 11 seasons with decidedly more talented teams than Lovie has had and he is a legend. Lovie has made 2 NFCCG in 9 seasons with teams annually having inferior talent at several key positions and people can't wait to run him out of town. Lovie isn't without flaws but he isn't the complete numbskull many make him out to be either.
Once Ditka got things in hand he won year in year out not every other year. His "GM", Vanisi, was fired and not replaced.

Smith cannot be mentioned in the same breath with Ditka by Bears fans.

Coaches don't get ten years to win the Super Bowls from teams which want to win it. Especially not when they limp long year after year. Lovie had two real good years and a decent on and could not get it done.

He has to go. There is nothing hasty or vindictive about this.



You know what is really funny? Ditka has the EXACT same winning percentage over his career that Lovie has. Don't believe it? Look it up, it's true. If he was such a super-stud, what happened in New Orleans? He was dreadful. Why? He didn't have the best defense of all time and arguably the best running back of all time and a visionary DC who implimented the perfect scheme for said defense. You know, the defense that Ditka didn't have much, if anything to do with. The DC who Ditka hated so much that they actually came to blows at halftime in Miami in '85. The DC who was carried off the field after the Super Bowl just like Ditka was.

After that, he won year after year...except for that whole '89-'92 stretch of 4 years where he was 1 game over .500. The Bears won a weak Central 2 of those years and were soundly beaten in the playoffs each time.

And lest we forget, Ditka made one of the worst draft day moves OF ALL TIME when he traded ALL of his 1999 picks and his first rounder in 2000 to move up and get Ricky Williams. The picks he traded became such players as LaVarr Arrington and Champ Bailey. If Lovie had done something as boneheaded as that, you'd have mentioned it 50 times by now.

Why, it almost seems like yet another example of what I pointed out before: coaches with good players look brilliant. Coaches with terrible players look terrible.
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BEARS24


Joined: 25 Sep 2008
Posts: 5037
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
BEARS24 wrote:
My opinion on the whole situation of Lovie...

Lovie Smith has been a faithful and excellent coach to one of the most illustrious and difficult teams to coach in all of team based sport, but in a town that expects so much he has not delivered the number one prize and it is wearing thin on many level headed fans here on FF

I don't think of myself as irrational and hot headed, and I hope that my posts on this site have reflected this, so my calls for a change at HC have been made with thought on how it could affect the team both positively and adversely as well

MM90 stated that Lovie is great 1 on 1 with the players, but when you get too comfortable in a job weather it be as a bag boy or an exec, you get complacent, so I think a new culture needs to be brought in especially with arguably the dawning of a new era in Chicago

Let me preface this next passage by saying this. My whole love of football stems from Brian Urlacher. He is the reason I started watching the game, why I wanted to play Linebacker when I first began to play football and why the Bears are my favorite sports team on the planet win or lose. But I think he will be gone this season, and I think it will be the right time for the team to move on and usher in a new era where we catch up with the rest of the NFL.

Emery was the beginning of this new era, and he showed he knows what it takes to be a championship calibre team in this day and age, with his immediate display of daylight robbery, or as it is more commonly referred to, the Brandon Marshall trade.

However, there is only so much a GM can do and it is down to the coach to handle his team throughout the season. Fact is we have not performed particularly well against quality opponents, and the playoffs is the cream of the crop, and a place we do not deserve to be.

Individual players have been outstanding this year ie: Brandon Marshall and units have been on fire as well, but there has been a slow down and there has to be a reason why. Not to say that the team is comfortable with losing, but it seems that there will be no desire to become great at this time, and I think the first step to a new mentality in the team is to bring in a new coach and re-form the o-line, a job that has been put off for years, and this is a fact that still to this day baffles me.

Who this man will be, I do not know, but anyone who comes to Chicago will have to know the size of the task they have at hand, even with a winning team, fans and media will treat you like you are yet to win a game in your career, I trust Emery to make the right decision in this regard when discussing it the relevant higher ups in the franchise.

Some things should be left somewhat alone, that being the defense and the fact that we run a 4 -3, but things as simple as pressing at the line could have prevented so many obvious scores, and its a change that Lovie is not willing to make. I am sure people will argue the advantages of not doing it as well and more knowledgeable posters will say that we do not have the personnel to do this as well but something as got to give, and the prevent D has got to be thrown out of the playbook, I can't explain how badly I want to headbutt whoever thought of the concept of it.

Finally, the biggest reason for our lack of sustainable success is that prick Angelo. I forget who posted it, but they were right in saying that it will take at least a few years to wash the stink of his term as GM off our team, but regardless he has dug us into too many holes and deserves to never manage a team again, even a team of huskies in the north pole pulling him from the winter abyss we should all put him in.

Overall, all I want is change because the current formula has been very hit and miss. the time for a new era in Chicago is now and we need to strike while the iron is hot. Sustainable success is the one thing we all want as Bears fans and it needs to be built from the ground up rather than filling in the gaps.
But for the animosity towards Angelo that was an excellent post. The only players left from him are mostly good players. It does not take long to change a team's personnel.

I have a right to be mad!!! Laughing

And the thing with Chicago is that it won't be quick to forget Angelo and use him as a scapegoat, but you are correct in what you say when you think about it...
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Madmike90


Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Posts: 22279
Location: Scotland
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Lovie is not an idiot and he is not a bad football coach.

He is just not the guy who is going to turn the Bears into a top tier team. He has had 9 years and we are still incredibly inconsistent.

We need a new voice, a new vision and someone who can lead us to being a competent offense. Lovie has been given more than enough time and it is time for a change.

Andy Ried is not an idiot or a bad coach and he has been to 4 NFCCG and a Superbowl, but after 10 years or more you start to realize that while your coach is good he is not good enough.

I appreciate the comments of the last 2 posters.

Competent offense would be great - nobody will disagree with that - but if it comes at the expense of competent defense then how is the team any better off? An incomplete team is an incomplete team regardless of where the deficiencies lie.


But you are assuming the next coach cannot maintain the defence. You are assuming that he won't hire a really good defensive coordinator. Lovie is not the only guy in the league that can coach defence.

I an not assuming that Lovie is never going to build an offence. Lovie has had 9 years to bring balance to this team and has failed.

It is time to give someone else a shot to do it.

I really don't hate Lovie, but after 9 years I am fairly certain he is never going to lead us to where we need to go.


But at the same time you are presuming that the next coach could maintain the quality we have had on D...or that the next head coach will be a good one...

And it has never been Lovie's job to "build" an offence...that is on the GM to provide the talent to do so...before this year we are extremely talent deficient on the outside and Emery fixed that in one year...now we are still extremely talent deficient on the Oline...if Emery fixes that we might have half a chance to have a good offence but until we have the talent to do so no one should be thrown under the bus.
Of course, it is Lovie's job to build an offense, as it is to build a defense. He does that with the players Emery and he agree will help do that. The GM has only slightly more influence on what players are assembled than Smith. You are not going to find many who will shove unwanted players down a coach's throat or ignore what they tell them they need. Heck, Player Personnel probably has more to do with who is taken than either of them.


No he isn't...it's the GM decision to have the final say on personal decisions...Lovie has an opinion in the matter but only one guy makes the final decision.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think any of us know how much Lovie was involved in personnel moves.

But we can all agree that he is at least somewhat responsible for the roste as it is now with its strengths and weaknesses.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7846
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BEARS24 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
BEARS24 wrote:
My opinion on the whole situation of Lovie...

Lovie Smith has been a faithful and excellent coach to one of the most illustrious and difficult teams to coach in all of team based sport, but in a town that expects so much he has not delivered the number one prize and it is wearing thin on many level headed fans here on FF

I don't think of myself as irrational and hot headed, and I hope that my posts on this site have reflected this, so my calls for a change at HC have been made with thought on how it could affect the team both positively and adversely as well

MM90 stated that Lovie is great 1 on 1 with the players, but when you get too comfortable in a job weather it be as a bag boy or an exec, you get complacent, so I think a new culture needs to be brought in especially with arguably the dawning of a new era in Chicago

Let me preface this next passage by saying this. My whole love of football stems from Brian Urlacher. He is the reason I started watching the game, why I wanted to play Linebacker when I first began to play football and why the Bears are my favorite sports team on the planet win or lose. But I think he will be gone this season, and I think it will be the right time for the team to move on and usher in a new era where we catch up with the rest of the NFL.

Emery was the beginning of this new era, and he showed he knows what it takes to be a championship calibre team in this day and age, with his immediate display of daylight robbery, or as it is more commonly referred to, the Brandon Marshall trade.

However, there is only so much a GM can do and it is down to the coach to handle his team throughout the season. Fact is we have not performed particularly well against quality opponents, and the playoffs is the cream of the crop, and a place we do not deserve to be.

Individual players have been outstanding this year ie: Brandon Marshall and units have been on fire as well, but there has been a slow down and there has to be a reason why. Not to say that the team is comfortable with losing, but it seems that there will be no desire to become great at this time, and I think the first step to a new mentality in the team is to bring in a new coach and re-form the o-line, a job that has been put off for years, and this is a fact that still to this day baffles me.

Who this man will be, I do not know, but anyone who comes to Chicago will have to know the size of the task they have at hand, even with a winning team, fans and media will treat you like you are yet to win a game in your career, I trust Emery to make the right decision in this regard when discussing it the relevant higher ups in the franchise.

Some things should be left somewhat alone, that being the defense and the fact that we run a 4 -3, but things as simple as pressing at the line could have prevented so many obvious scores, and its a change that Lovie is not willing to make. I am sure people will argue the advantages of not doing it as well and more knowledgeable posters will say that we do not have the personnel to do this as well but something as got to give, and the prevent D has got to be thrown out of the playbook, I can't explain how badly I want to headbutt whoever thought of the concept of it.

Finally, the biggest reason for our lack of sustainable success is that prick Angelo. I forget who posted it, but they were right in saying that it will take at least a few years to wash the stink of his term as GM off our team, but regardless he has dug us into too many holes and deserves to never manage a team again, even a team of huskies in the north pole pulling him from the winter abyss we should all put him in.

Overall, all I want is change because the current formula has been very hit and miss. the time for a new era in Chicago is now and we need to strike while the iron is hot. Sustainable success is the one thing we all want as Bears fans and it needs to be built from the ground up rather than filling in the gaps.
But for the animosity towards Angelo that was an excellent post. The only players left from him are mostly good players. It does not take long to change a team's personnel.

I have a right to be mad!!! Laughing

And the thing with Chicago is that it won't be quick to forget Angelo and use him as a scapegoat, but you are correct in what you say when you think about it...
Angelo hired the coaches that led us into the Super Bowl and collected the players. Smith started to remove them as soon as he had more power. Can't say there was any improvement from that.

Smith is 1-10 for the last eleven games when they are behind at the half.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7846
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Lovie is not an idiot and he is not a bad football coach.

He is just not the guy who is going to turn the Bears into a top tier team. He has had 9 years and we are still incredibly inconsistent.

We need a new voice, a new vision and someone who can lead us to being a competent offense. Lovie has been given more than enough time and it is time for a change.

Andy Ried is not an idiot or a bad coach and he has been to 4 NFCCG and a Superbowl, but after 10 years or more you start to realize that while your coach is good he is not good enough.

I appreciate the comments of the last 2 posters.

Competent offense would be great - nobody will disagree with that - but if it comes at the expense of competent defense then how is the team any better off? An incomplete team is an incomplete team regardless of where the deficiencies lie.


But you are assuming the next coach cannot maintain the defence. You are assuming that he won't hire a really good defensive coordinator. Lovie is not the only guy in the league that can coach defence.

I an not assuming that Lovie is never going to build an offence. Lovie has had 9 years to bring balance to this team and has failed.

It is time to give someone else a shot to do it.

I really don't hate Lovie, but after 9 years I am fairly certain he is never going to lead us to where we need to go.


But at the same time you are presuming that the next coach could maintain the quality we have had on D...or that the next head coach will be a good one...

And it has never been Lovie's job to "build" an offence...that is on the GM to provide the talent to do so...before this year we are extremely talent deficient on the outside and Emery fixed that in one year...now we are still extremely talent deficient on the Oline...if Emery fixes that we might have half a chance to have a good offence but until we have the talent to do so no one should be thrown under the bus.
Of course, it is Lovie's job to build an offense, as it is to build a defense. He does that with the players Emery and he agree will help do that. The GM has only slightly more influence on what players are assembled than Smith. You are not going to find many who will shove unwanted players down a coach's throat or ignore what they tell them they need. Heck, Player Personnel probably has more to do with who is taken than either of them.


No he isn't...it's the GM decision to have the final say on personal decisions...Lovie has an opinion in the matter but only one guy makes the final decision.
As I said that is just the stamp of approval for what the Player Personnel recommends.

Smith is 1-10 in the last eleven games in which the Bears were behind at the half. That is totally unacceptable. And he will ONCE AGAIN defer and allow GB to take the initiative. He needs to carefully study Sun Tzu's Art of War. It makes it clear that leadership is the most significant factor in war of which football is a minor form but subject to many of the same rules.
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ChicagoAl


Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 7846
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TexasBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
Madmike90 wrote:
ChicagoAl wrote:
AZBearsFan wrote:
WindyCity wrote:
Jerry Angelo, not saying he was not to blame but he and Lovie worked together since the Superbowl on personnel.

Has anyone ever confirmed this, or is it just a wide spread assumption?
The parade of washed up, over the hill bums from the Rams confirms it. Do you seriously believe Angelo would have wasted time and money on them on his own?


Where do you get this from Al?...since Lovie took over in 2004 the only guys who we have brought in with any connection to the Rams when Lovie was there who were expected to make any significant contribution are Adam Archuleta & Orlando Pace.
Yeah, I guess we just brought in the TE and the LB and others to give them hundreds of thousands of dollars to stand around and LOOK like football players or maybe it was to pursue diversity.


Pisa was a very solid player for us who was only derailed by injury...Manu was a Martz want.
We knew Pisa was likely to be injured again when we got him.

But lets assume that Smith had NO influence on personnel but only coaches after 06. Then there is even a stronger case to be made against him as a head coach.

Smith made it to the Super Bowl with the coaches ANGELO picked, coaching the players ANGELO picked. Then after the Super Bowl Smith allegedly gains control and does not retain the excellent DC and the defensive undergoes turmoil while Smith is figures out what he is doing. Is any one going to argue that he hired BETTER coaches than Angelo? Anyone in their right mind that is?

And suddenly Angelo can't give him the players he need to win consistently. Uh huh, I'll buy that but only after becoming much less mentally acute. That may be any day now if I have to watch much more of this debacle or people defending the greatest of all mediocre coaches.


Let’s not…since no one is stupid enough to think that Lovie had no say in our draft picks…the point is as much as Lovie maybe wanted a guy or maybe didn’t want a guy there was only one person within the organisation with the final say…and that was Angelo.
The way people attack Angelo it is as if Smith had NOTHING at all to do with personnel. It was all Angelo.


No they don't...people just know who has the final say in acquiring talent.
It is undeniable that Angelo was vilified here way out of proportion to his faults. Unless I press the point no one acknowledged that Smith helped make those decisions and got little blame for them.

Nobody gave Lovie a full pass then and few if any are doing so now. Remember the outcry here after the 2009 season when Lovie WASN'T fired? I do - I even wore this sig for a while about the debacle of a press conference the day after the season ended:



People just held Angelo more accountable because he had the final say. For all the criticism Lovie takes he has a team with probably the 2nd worst (behind AZ) OL in the entire league and the 31st most productive passing game (and only ahead of MIN because Harvin got hurt) and yet this team is 8-5. He isn't above criticism but he should credit for that, same as he should get credit for the 2010 team reaching the NFCCG with a porous offense. He hasn't won the big game (yet) and that is the only reason he isn't revered. Had we won SB XLI with no other differences to any other outcomes he would be as revered as Ditka. For what it's worth, Ditka made 3 NFCCG in 11 seasons with decidedly more talented teams than Lovie has had and he is a legend. Lovie has made 2 NFCCG in 9 seasons with teams annually having inferior talent at several key positions and people can't wait to run him out of town. Lovie isn't without flaws but he isn't the complete numbskull many make him out to be either.
Once Ditka got things in hand he won year in year out not every other year. His "GM", Vanisi, was fired and not replaced.

Smith cannot be mentioned in the same breath with Ditka by Bears fans.

Coaches don't get ten years to win the Super Bowls from teams which want to win it. Especially not when they limp long year after year. Lovie had two real good years and a decent on and could not get it done.

He has to go. There is nothing hasty or vindictive about this.



You know what is really funny? Ditka has the EXACT same winning percentage over his career that Lovie has. Don't believe it? Look it up, it's true. If he was such a super-stud, what happened in New Orleans? He was dreadful. Why? He didn't have the best defense of all time and arguably the best running back of all time and a visionary DC who implimented the perfect scheme for said defense. You know, the defense that Ditka didn't have much, if anything to do with. The DC who Ditka hated so much that they actually came to blows at halftime in Miami in '85. The DC who was carried off the field after the Super Bowl just like Ditka was. Ditka had Buddy grafted onto him because of an extra-ordinary letter to Halas from the defensive players probably written by Fencik. DITKA is GONE so Lovie should join him by your thinking.

After that, he won year after year...except for that whole '89-'92 stretch of 4 years where he was 1 game over .500. The Bears won a weak Central 2 of those years and were soundly beaten in the playoffs each time. The Bears were the best team in the league for three years and they were not "roundly" beaten in the playoffs but lost close games either without McMahon or with him coming back from missing a month or so. And in each game it took terrific plays to beat them. After that they started to try and find a QB and never were able to get the same production and the defense started to drop. It did not drop off when Buddy left and was actually better the next year.

And lest we forget, Ditka made one of the worst draft day moves OF ALL TIME when he traded ALL of his 1999 picks and his first rounder in 2000 to move up and get Ricky Williams. The picks he traded became such players as LaVarr Arrington and Champ Bailey. If Lovie had done something as boneheaded as that, you'd have mentioned it 50 times by now. Yes, I would and all the We Love Lovie Chorus would be even more vociferously claiming that he had NOTHING to do with it.

Why, it almost seems like yet another example of what I pointed out before: coaches with good players look brilliant. Coaches with terrible players look terrible.
Leadership is the most important quality in a winning football team. Great coaches make average player look good, bad players look ok and good players look great.

Smith has lost 10 of 11 of the last games where he was behind at the half.
It is impossible for such a team to win the Super Bowl.
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WindyCity


Joined: 26 Jun 2009
Posts: 9602
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I forgot the Lovie fired himself as DC after a miserable season of actually calling plays.

This guy goes through some serious assistant coaches.
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