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Wes Welker Circa 2012.
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tonyto3690


Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 5506
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mco65 wrote:
Johnson and Smith are not in the HOF either.. if they retired today, they likely would NOT get in.. but just like Welker, they are not done putting up numbers so who knows...

The game changes constantly and TDs can be spread among other players on a team. Which the Patriots do as well as anyone... but back in '07 when the Pats had Randy Moss (a sure fire HOFer) and Wes Welker.. Welker had more catches but Moss had WAY more TDs (23 to 8 ).. If the Patriots had another Moss on their team today, he would be getting those TDs as well.

If you looked at the current receiving TDs leader board... you would find 8 WRs and 2 TEs.. TEs are not catching more TD passes than WR in general.

Welker is a slot guy, a chains mover. He simply does not run posts patterns which would result in TDs... that's not a knock on him, he is the best slot receiver in the game and the HOFers voters could and should take that into consideration but if he is on a ballet that contains outside receivers like MOSS who has over 100 career TDs, he is not gonna get in.. at least not until all those 100 TD receiver are already in.. Chris Carter for example.. Sad


You're missing the point though. You already acknowledged Welkers role isn't to score TDs, it's to move the chains. When you have the greatest jump ball receiver to ever play the game in Moss, and the best redzone target in the NFL in Gronk, along with what is now a top 5 redzone running game, he is naturally not going to get a lot of TDs. That doesn't mean he isn't important or great, because I guarantee without Welker, the Patriots score a heck of a lot TDs.

I pointed out earlier. Gronk is our unquestioned #1 redzone target. He missed the past two games. What happened to Welker stats? Roughly 19 catches, 200 yards, 2 TDs. It's not a coincidence. It's not like he CANT do it. Just Gronkowski is more consistent, reliable and easier to score with in the redzone.


Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Welker didn't get in because of TDs, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't. From a pure production and on the field results, he should get in. He is constantly moving the chains for us and has been the key cog to multiple all time great offenses. Without Welker, Brady doesn't touch 50 TDs nor go anywhere near 5000 last year. Not that he still wouldn't have had a good season, but Welker gives the Patriots so many more opportunities with his 3rd down conversions.
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:

Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT.
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fortdetroit


Joined: 27 Dec 2011
Posts: 2143
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mco65 wrote:
Chris Carter is getting in.. bank on it.

numbers matter, TDs matter more and Chris Carter had 130! YOu can't keep that kind of production OUT of the HOF..


The point still stands. If Chris Carter, the 2nd leading receiver of all time (?), can't get into the HOF in his first 5 years of eligibility....that still speaks to how much the HOF voters value WR numbers. Even if Carter EVENTUALLY gets is years down the road, that's still disconcerning for Welker considering he's not near Carter as a receiver.
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mco65


Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 534
Location: US
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonyto3690 wrote:
mco65 wrote:
Johnson and Smith are not in the HOF either.. if they retired today, they likely would NOT get in.. but just like Welker, they are not done putting up numbers so who knows...

The game changes constantly and TDs can be spread among other players on a team. Which the Patriots do as well as anyone... but back in '07 when the Pats had Randy Moss (a sure fire HOFer) and Wes Welker.. Welker had more catches but Moss had WAY more TDs (23 to 8 ).. If the Patriots had another Moss on their team today, he would be getting those TDs as well.

If you looked at the current receiving TDs leader board... you would find 8 WRs and 2 TEs.. TEs are not catching more TD passes than WR in general.

Welker is a slot guy, a chains mover. He simply does not run posts patterns which would result in TDs... that's not a knock on him, he is the best slot receiver in the game and the HOFers voters could and should take that into consideration but if he is on a ballet that contains outside receivers like MOSS who has over 100 career TDs, he is not gonna get in.. at least not until all those 100 TD receiver are already in.. Chris Carter for example.. Sad


You're missing the point though. You already acknowledged Welkers role isn't to score TDs, it's to move the chains. When you have the greatest jump ball receiver to ever play the game in Moss, and the best redzone target in the NFL in Gronk, along with what is now a top 5 redzone running game, he is naturally not going to get a lot of TDs. That doesn't mean he isn't important or great, because I guarantee without Welker, the Patriots score a heck of a lot TDs.

I pointed out earlier. Gronk is our unquestioned #1 redzone target. He missed the past two games. What happened to Welker stats? Roughly 19 catches, 200 yards, 2 TDs. It's not a coincidence. It's not like he CANT do it. Just Gronkowski is more consistent, reliable and easier to score with in the redzone.


Again, I wouldn't be surprised if Welker didn't get in because of TDs, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't. From a pure production and on the field results, he should get in. He is constantly moving the chains for us and has been the key cog to multiple all time great offenses. Without Welker, Brady doesn't touch 50 TDs nor go anywhere near 5000 last year. Not that he still wouldn't have had a good season, but Welker gives the Patriots so many more opportunities with his 3rd down conversions.


I am NOT missing the point. I am just telling you the way it is. I like Welker, if he continued at his current pace and played another 5 seasons i would vote him in but I don't get a vote.. I am just telling you what the current voters are looking for... that might change once Welker retires, who knows but if you doubled his numbers right now and he were on the ballot today, he would have a hard time getting in.. those are just the facts as I see them!

Welker currently has 36 TDs.. that's low and sticks OUT loudly for a receiver.. If you doubled them he would have 70.. Carter has damn near double that and he aint in.. yet.. I contend Carter gets in but he has been kept out for several years now..

Welker has to either start scoring many more TDs or the writers have to change their stance a little on WRs.. something has to change for Welker to get in.. if not, he's gonna have a hard time getting in.

Also note that it will be hard for writers to contend that Welker is a HOFer, one of the best to ever play yet he was never the best Receiver on his team..
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tonyto3690


Joined: 29 Jan 2010
Posts: 5506
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cris carter not being in has more to do with politics than his numbers so it's unfair to compare welker to him.

Anyways the we agree. Tds will prevent him getting in, I'm just stating that it SHOULDN'T. Moving the chains is what he does so others can score tds. Welker has been the best wideout the patriots had since 2008/2009. And for overall receiver you can't blame him for playing next to the second best receiver ever and a te on pace to be the GOAT.
_________________
C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:

Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT.
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