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Is Tyron Smith.... an Elite LT in the NFL?
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atran35


Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 3235
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
mco65 wrote:
Ty is not ELITE, yet.. he is only in his second season in the league and his first playing left tackle. plus he is only 20 or 21... he has plenty of time to be Elite and I think he will certainly move into that category very soon and stay there for the better part of a decade, baring injury.


Do you think Nate Solder LT for the Patriots is elite? He too is in his 2nd year.... Or is his play a byproduct of Brady?

Just curious....


I watch the Patriots games occasionally due to my girl friend. Brady offense moves so fast and if there are any issues due to breakdown...he dumps it to the TEs or Wes. Plus their Olines have been BEAST for years. They don't care about elite WRs or RBs. It's all about Brady and the Oline.
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Spends


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.
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MaddHatter


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sacks allowed is terrible way to measure a LT's abilities - a LT with a very mobile/elusive QB will benefit while one with a QB with stone feet will suffer. I would prefer to atleast see pressures allowed including pressure/hit/sack and then break that down against number of drop backs by the respective QB.

I think FO has a DVOA measurement that would be far better

And no - Smith isn't one of hte best or elite
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Dboys88-82


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not one of the best or elite, but he is still very young, has a good work ethic, and a ton of potential.
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Northland


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
Not one of the best or elite, but he is still very young, has a good work ethic, and a ton of potential.


X2.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spends wrote:
Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.




IDK. TO7 gets to watch him a lot and defends a "he overrated" stance. I don't get to see him, so I just see him on paper and see that he has given up 7.0 sacks this year and then I combine that with what TO7 says about him and... well... idk
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DaBoys wrote:
Spends wrote:
Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.


IDK. TO7 gets to watch him a lot and defends a "he overrated" stance. I don't get to see him, so I just see him on paper and see that he has given up 7.0 sacks this year and then I combine that with what TO7 says about him and... well... idk


I don't want people to misunderstand. The guy is good. But he is not worth anywhere near the amount he is going to command. He has struggled all year long. Hehe. Get it? Long?

Buyer Beware.
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Dboys88-82


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
Spends wrote:
Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.


IDK. TO7 gets to watch him a lot and defends a "he overrated" stance. I don't get to see him, so I just see him on paper and see that he has given up 7.0 sacks this year and then I combine that with what TO7 says about him and... well... idk


I don't want people to misunderstand. The guy is good. But he is not worth anywhere near the amount he is going to command. He has struggled all year long. Hehe. Get it? Long?

Buyer Beware.


My brother is a dolphins fan and the little bit we have talked about Jake long he made it sound like it was more a change of blocking scheme that Long didnt fit and thats why he has been struggling.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
Spends wrote:
Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.


IDK. TO7 gets to watch him a lot and defends a "he overrated" stance. I don't get to see him, so I just see him on paper and see that he has given up 7.0 sacks this year and then I combine that with what TO7 says about him and... well... idk


I don't want people to misunderstand. The guy is good. But he is not worth anywhere near the amount he is going to command. He has struggled all year long. Hehe. Get it? Long?

Buyer Beware.


My brother is a dolphins fan and the little bit we have talked about Jake long he made it sound like it was more a change of blocking scheme that Long didnt fit and thats why he has been struggling.



It's not saying much but I would rather have him at RT than Free.
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
Sacks allowed is terrible way to measure a LT's abilities - a LT with a very mobile/elusive QB will benefit while one with a QB with stone feet will suffer. I would prefer to atleast see pressures allowed including pressure/hit/sack and then break that down against number of drop backs by the respective QB.

I think FO has a DVOA measurement that would be far better

And no - Smith isn't one of hte best or elite



I wouldn't say that it is a terrible way to measure, as long as you don't use it as the only measurement. Just look at the top of the list MH. Then ask yourself who the best LTs in the league are. You will see the names are very similar. Again, i'm not saying it makes the LT elite or not, but it is a stat that should be and is considered.

Also i'm not sure that the mobile/elusive QB have much of anything to do with it. I would say those who have a QB who is smart, works through his progressions, and gets rid of the ball quickly benefits a LT WAY more than a mobile/elusive QB. For example, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning are possibly the least mobile QBs in the league but they are smart, work through their progressions, and release the ball quickly. Nate Solder and Ryan Clady have both benefited from this greatly as they have allowed 3.5 sacks combined. It is also well known that scrambling QBs get sacked more than any. They also tend to hang on the ball longer. Let's look at Andrew Luck. He is a mobile QB, yet his LT Anthony Castonzo has given up 8.5 sacks. Cam Newton is mobile and his LT Jordan Gross has given up 5.5 sacks. I would actually argue that having a QB that is mobile may hurt the bottom line of a LT because of the tendency to hold the ball longer. Stone feet has certainly not hurt Clady or Solder.
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wrong thread Crying or Very sad
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DaBoys


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
matt79511 wrote:
Sacks allowed is an iffy stat, he allowed like 8 last year but he gave up very little other pressure, whereas this year he's given up a lot more pressure. Giving up half a sack also makes no sense- you get bonus points because another lineman got beat as well? No, you got beat. Plus he's missed a game and a half.

Definitely not elite, maybe just maybe Top 10- not gonna pretend to know how good every other left tackle in the NFL is. I do fully expect him to be elite in the near future, but he's not there yet.


I agree that sacks allowed is not the end-all-be-all, but I think it is a good starting point. When you consider that most of the tackles people consider to be elite make up the top of the list. I also think holding calls should be a consideration because that USUALLY means you got beat and it would have been a sack. Smith has only 2 holding calls. Just for some comparison, Joe Thomas has given up the same amount of sacks and has 3 holding calls.

EDIT: Also Brandon Albert is considered one of the best by some and he has only started 10 games this year.


So smith got away with more holds than joe thomas. the refs miss holds all the time. Its hard to use that against the players. False starts is another way to judge them and i dont think we would be very impressed with smith in that aspect.


Holding happens on every play. It's only the blatant holds where you are seriously beat, and just trying to save your QB/RB from getting creamed, that get called. I don't think the Smith is better than Thomas right now. Don't get me wrong. He may never be actually, but just being close would make him solid.

I feel like holds are a better way to judge a LT than a false start. A false start could just be cadence issues with the center. Something that cowboys have certainly had to deal with. It could also be discipline. Just for sits and siggles here they are compared to each other.

Joe Thomas 5 penalties for 40 yards
Tyron Smith 8 penalties for 55 yards

Joe Thomas 2 false starts 3 holding
Tyron Smith 5 false starts 2 holding

Joe Thomas 2.5 sacks allowed for 19.5 yards
Tyron Smith 2.5 sacks allowed for 17.5 yards

I want to say one more time that I don't think Smith is on quite the same level as Thomas, but I will say that their stats(as far as stats go) are very similar.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
Spends wrote:
Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.


IDK. TO7 gets to watch him a lot and defends a "he overrated" stance. I don't get to see him, so I just see him on paper and see that he has given up 7.0 sacks this year and then I combine that with what TO7 says about him and... well... idk


I don't want people to misunderstand. The guy is good. But he is not worth anywhere near the amount he is going to command. He has struggled all year long. Hehe. Get it? Long?

Buyer Beware.


My brother is a dolphins fan and the little bit we have talked about Jake long he made it sound like it was more a change of blocking scheme that Long didnt fit and thats why he has been struggling.


Again. Don't want people to misunderstand. Long is a good LT. He is just not worth the money he will command. My issue is value vs production. He has struggled this year - but I don't think an off-year is tantamount to damnation. I just don't want him because of the price he will command. It would hamstring us based on what we receive.
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Spends


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
DaBoys wrote:
Spends wrote:
Jake Long not in the top 10? I'm not arguing it, but it is surprising given the buzz about him being a free agent this offseason and all the money they say he is going to get.

Taking a bit from Slam's post and the question from another guy - Yes Tom Brady makes Nate Solder better. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link...and we have too many weak links to call Tyron Smith elite. He may have elite potential, but he will never reach it with this supporting cast.


IDK. TO7 gets to watch him a lot and defends a "he overrated" stance. I don't get to see him, so I just see him on paper and see that he has given up 7.0 sacks this year and then I combine that with what TO7 says about him and... well... idk


I don't want people to misunderstand. The guy is good. But he is not worth anywhere near the amount he is going to command. He has struggled all year long. Hehe. Get it? Long?

Buyer Beware.


My brother is a dolphins fan and the little bit we have talked about Jake long he made it sound like it was more a change of blocking scheme that Long didnt fit and thats why he has been struggling.


Again. Don't want people to misunderstand. Long is a good LT. He is just not worth the money he will command. My issue is value vs production. He has struggled this year - but I don't think an off-year is tantamount to damnation. I just don't want him because of the price he will command. It would hamstring us based on what we receive.


I understand your point. However, given the amount of money he is going to command I feel like he should at least make a "Top 10 LT" list. Perception is Reality.
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