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DaBoys
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 3022
Location: Lubbock Texas
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 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:12 am Post subject: Is Tyron Smith.... an Elite LT in the NFL? |
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There is a comparisons thread for top 5 LTs in the NFL for 2012. Of course Tyron Smith is getting no love, and I agreed. .........At first...... then I started doing a little research. Yeah he plays on a terrible line with no push in the running game. Now, being able to run the ball behind your LT is important, don't get me wrong, but the LTs main job is to keep the QB upright. Not to get push in the run game. And I know... He also has a lot of penalties. Russell Okung has more, though, and he is getting plenty of love in the top 5 LTs thread. Yes I am aware that the IQ level in the NFL general, NFL Comparison etc... forums is usually low. I would say that top 5 at your position is elite. Top 10 at your respective position and you can be labeled one of the best in the league.
So is Tyron Smith elite? One of the best in the league, but not elite? Or neither?
Sacks allowed by LTs in 2012
Duane Brown LT Texans - 1
Ryan Clady LT Broncos - 1
Russell Okung LT Seahawks - 1
Brandon Albert LT Cheifs - 1
Jeff Backus LT Lions - 1.5
Will Beatty LT Giants - 2.0
Joe Thomas LT Browns - 2.5
Tyron Smith LT Cowboys - 2.5
Nate Solder LT Patriots - 2.5
Cordy Glenn LT Bills - 2.5
Sam Baker LT Falcons - 3.0
Eugene Monroe LT Jaguars - 3.0
Donald Penn LT Bucs - 3.5
Jermon Bushrod LT Saints - 3.5
Andrew Whitworth LT Bengals - 4.0
Trent Williams LT Redskins - 4.0
Jared Veldheer LT Raiders - 4.0
Matt Kalil LT Vikings - 4.5
King Dunlap LT Eagles - 5.0
Jordan Gross LT Panthers - 5.5
Joe Staley LT 49ers - 6.0
Jake Long LT Dolphins - 7.0
Mike Harris LT Chargers - 7.0
Michael Oher LT Ravens - 7.0
Marshall Newhouse LT Packers - 7.5
Anthony Castonzo LT Colts - 8.5
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane. |
| The_Slamman wrote: | | Daboys is right. |
| Texas_OutLaw7 wrote: | | BTW, DaBoys wins this thread. |
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DaBoys
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 3022
Location: Lubbock Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Here are my rankings by the way:
Best LT in the NFL for 2012
#1. Ryan Clady
#2. Duane Brown
#3. Joe Thomas
#4. Nate Solder
#5. Sam Baker
#6. Brandon Albert
#7. Russell Okung
#8. Tyron Smith
#9. Eugene Monroe
#10. Donald Penn
EDIT: Okay for sure this time
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane. |
| The_Slamman wrote: | | Daboys is right. |
| Texas_OutLaw7 wrote: | | BTW, DaBoys wins this thread. |
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mco65
Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 534
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
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| Ty is not ELITE, yet.. he is only in his second season in the league and his first playing left tackle. plus he is only 20 or 21... he has plenty of time to be Elite and I think he will certainly move into that category very soon and stay there for the better part of a decade, baring injury. |
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DaBoys
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 3022
Location: Lubbock Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:35 am Post subject: |
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| mco65 wrote: | | Ty is not ELITE, yet.. he is only in his second season in the league and his first playing left tackle. plus he is only 20 or 21... he has plenty of time to be Elite and I think he will certainly move into that category very soon and stay there for the better part of a decade, baring injury. |
Do you think Nate Solder LT for the Patriots is elite? He too is in his 2nd year.... Or is his play a byproduct of Brady?
Just curious....
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane. |
| The_Slamman wrote: | | Daboys is right. |
| Texas_OutLaw7 wrote: | | BTW, DaBoys wins this thread. |
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matt79511
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2199
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:37 am Post subject: |
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Sacks allowed is an iffy stat, he allowed like 8 last year but he gave up very little other pressure, whereas this year he's given up a lot more pressure. Giving up half a sack also makes no sense- you get bonus points because another lineman got beat as well? No, you got beat. Plus he's missed a game and a half.
Definitely not elite, maybe just maybe Top 10- not gonna pretend to know how good every other left tackle in the NFL is. I do fully expect him to be elite in the near future, but he's not there yet.
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DaBoys
Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 3022
Location: Lubbock Texas
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| matt79511 wrote: | Sacks allowed is an iffy stat, he allowed like 8 last year but he gave up very little other pressure, whereas this year he's given up a lot more pressure. Giving up half a sack also makes no sense- you get bonus points because another lineman got beat as well? No, you got beat. Plus he's missed a game and a half.
Definitely not elite, maybe just maybe Top 10- not gonna pretend to know how good every other left tackle in the NFL is. I do fully expect him to be elite in the near future, but he's not there yet. |
I agree that sacks allowed is not the end-all-be-all, but I think it is a good starting point. When you consider that most of the tackles people consider to be elite make up the top of the list. I also think holding calls should be a consideration because that USUALLY means you got beat and it would have been a sack. Smith has only 2 holding calls. Just for some comparison, Joe Thomas has given up the same amount of sacks and has 3 holding calls.
EDIT: Also Brandon Albert is considered one of the best by some and he has only started 10 games this year.
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| Matts4313 wrote: | | I agree with daboys, some of you might be insane. |
| The_Slamman wrote: | | Daboys is right. |
| Texas_OutLaw7 wrote: | | BTW, DaBoys wins this thread. |
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Dboys88-82
Joined: 12 Jan 2011
Posts: 1675
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| DaBoys wrote: | | matt79511 wrote: | Sacks allowed is an iffy stat, he allowed like 8 last year but he gave up very little other pressure, whereas this year he's given up a lot more pressure. Giving up half a sack also makes no sense- you get bonus points because another lineman got beat as well? No, you got beat. Plus he's missed a game and a half.
Definitely not elite, maybe just maybe Top 10- not gonna pretend to know how good every other left tackle in the NFL is. I do fully expect him to be elite in the near future, but he's not there yet. |
I agree that sacks allowed is not the end-all-be-all, but I think it is a good starting point. When you consider that most of the tackles people consider to be elite make up the top of the list. I also think holding calls should be a consideration because that USUALLY means you got beat and it would have been a sack. Smith has only 2 holding calls. Just for some comparison, Joe Thomas has given up the same amount of sacks and has 3 holding calls.
EDIT: Also Brandon Albert is considered one of the best by some and he has only started 10 games this year. |
So smith got away with more holds than joe thomas. the refs miss holds all the time. Its hard to use that against the players. False starts is another way to judge them and i dont think we would be very impressed with smith in that aspect. |
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mco65
Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 534
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| DaBoys wrote: | | mco65 wrote: | | Ty is not ELITE, yet.. he is only in his second season in the league and his first playing left tackle. plus he is only 20 or 21... he has plenty of time to be Elite and I think he will certainly move into that category very soon and stay there for the better part of a decade, baring injury. |
Do you think Nate Solder LT for the Patriots is elite? He too is in his 2nd year.... Or is his play a byproduct of Brady?
Just curious.... |
To be honest. I never noticed Nate Solder and would not have known who he was had you not told me he was the LT for the Patriots...  I pay little attention to other teams, who has the time to do that?? not me. I love football but when the Cowboys are not playing, I am on the REDZONE channel. |
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plan9misfit
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 18012
Location: RIP: B2TB, T14, & S.A. We miss you.
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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I care more about the entire offensive line as a unit playing well than worrying about whether an individual player is elite. For instance, I'd much prefer 5 above average players on the o-line as opposed to 1 elite guy, one average guy, and three sub-par players. I would argue that if we had four other players on the o-line who could play reasonably well, Tyron Smith's play would get better by default. There's a synergy with offensive and defensive lines that is very difficult to measure.
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Texas_OutLaw7
Joined: 27 Mar 2005
Posts: 19403
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of '12
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:05 am Post subject: |
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I don't think he is elite, no. I don't think he is in the conversation, either.
He has really high potential, but is still going through learning curves. He's been taken to task by some of the best pass-rushers in the NFL. His run-blocking is great at times, and whiffs at times. And a lot of it has to do with the influx of the line. There has been a mess created, and he just switched sides again. Give it time.
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The price of progress is trusting the process.
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mco65
Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 534
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | I care more about the entire offensive line as a unit playing well than worrying about whether an individual player is elite. For instance, I'd much prefer 5 above average players on the o-line as opposed to 1 elite guy, one average guy, and three sub-par players. I would argue that if we had four other players on the o-line who could play reasonably well, Tyron Smith's play would get better by default. There's a synergy with offensive and defensive lines that is very difficult to measure. |
As Doug Free has demonstrated this year, just 1 sub par guy on the offensive line can make the other side of the line play moot especially on passing plays.. ARGH! |
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Tony7188
Joined: 02 Jan 2011
Posts: 2506
Location: Baltimore, MD
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| mco65 wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | I care more about the entire offensive line as a unit playing well than worrying about whether an individual player is elite. For instance, I'd much prefer 5 above average players on the o-line as opposed to 1 elite guy, one average guy, and three sub-par players. I would argue that if we had four other players on the o-line who could play reasonably well, Tyron Smith's play would get better by default. There's a synergy with offensive and defensive lines that is very difficult to measure. |
As Doug Free has demonstrated this year, just 1 sub par guy on the offensive line can make the other side of the line play moot especially on passing plays.. ARGH! |
I still think we need a center above all else. Then a RT after
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| Fender wrote: | | I agree. At some point people have to stop assigning blame of personnel decisions that go wrong to the person responsible for personnel decisions. |
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DKDALfan
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 1582
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Tony7188 wrote: | | mco65 wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | I care more about the entire offensive line as a unit playing well than worrying about whether an individual player is elite. For instance, I'd much prefer 5 above average players on the o-line as opposed to 1 elite guy, one average guy, and three sub-par players. I would argue that if we had four other players on the o-line who could play reasonably well, Tyron Smith's play would get better by default. There's a synergy with offensive and defensive lines that is very difficult to measure. |
As Doug Free has demonstrated this year, just 1 sub par guy on the offensive line can make the other side of the line play moot especially on passing plays.. ARGH! |
I still think we need a center above all else. Then a RT after |
Why do you think Bernadeau will play better in the future then Costa? In Costa's limited time on the field, he has showen much improvement. He showed that he really has worked his but off this off season because he finally got the chance to start, and he showed that he isnt willing to just give it away again.
- Bernadeau, has just showed that he is a bum. And after 5 years in the league, I doubt that there can be much hope for improvement. With a really strong OG class comming up, I want us to draft a guard early since I see that as our biggest weakness. |
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DKDALfan
Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 1582
Location: Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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As for Tyron, no. He isn't elite. But he defintly has the potential and the work ethic, and everything he has showen so far in the NFL points to him becomming elite somewhere in the near future.
- We have to remember, this guy is only in his 2nd year and he is also just 21 years old. That is younger then most 1st years players. |
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GeneralDissaray
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 4472
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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I think this whole 'Elite' label is pointless. It's so subjective. It's like the MVP debate, or the Emmitt/Barry debate. Scene from 'Thank you for smoking' between father Nick(tobacco lobbyist) and son Joey.
Joey Naylor: ...so what happens when you're wrong?
Nick Naylor: Whoa, Joey I'm never wrong.
Joey Naylor: But you can't always be right...
Nick Naylor: Well, if it's your job to be right, then you're never wrong.
Joey Naylor: But what if you are wrong?
Nick Naylor: OK, let's say that you're defending chocolate, and I'm defending vanilla. Now if I were to say to you: 'Vanilla is the best flavour ice-cream', you'd say...
Joey Naylor: No, chocolate is.
Nick Naylor: Exactly, but you can't win that argument... so, I'll ask you: so you think chocolate is the end all and the all of ice-cream, do you?
Joey Naylor: It's the best ice-cream, I wouldn't order any other.
Nick Naylor: Oh! So it's all chocolate for you is it?
Joey Naylor: Yes, chocolate is all I need.
Nick Naylor: Well, I need more than chocolate, and for that matter I need more than vanilla. I believe that we need freedom. And choice when it comes to our ice-cream, and that Joey Naylor, that is the defintion of liberty.
Joey Naylor: But that's not what we're talking about
Nick Naylor: Ah! But that's what I'm talking about.
Joey Naylor: ...but you didn't prove that vanilla was the best...
Nick Naylor: I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right.
Joey Naylor: But you still didn't convince me
Nick Naylor: It's that I'm not after you. I'm after them.
[points into the crowd] |
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