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treat88
Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 6722
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 Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| kethnaab wrote: | | Gatoradus wrote: | | If that's true, wouldn't chase thomas be a 1st round prospect, not 2nd? Cause the need for ilb is still high in this league you know? |
you aren't going to see too many ILBs drafted in the 1st round anymore. That 2007 "explosion" might be one of the last ones you'll see anytime soon. Too much value in the 2nd - 4th rounds now.
Yes, Patrick Willis was a 1st rounder, as is Luke Kuechly, and so will Manti Te'o.
but take a look at the number of excellent/standouts from the 2nd-4th rounds that are starting and doing very well:
Daryl Washington, James Laurinaitis, NaVorro Bowman, Bobby Wagner,
Brandon Spikes, David Harris, Paul Posz, Colin McCarthy, Donald Butler, Bruce Carter, Sean Lee, Navorro Bowman, Stephen Tulloch, and Curtis Lofton
1st round has become the primary home of QBs, pass rushers, and passing skill position players (CB/WR)
right, wrong, or otherwise, that's just the recent trend. There's only 32 guys that can go in the first round, and I figure darn near 2/3s of them will be DT, rush OLB/DE, or CB/WR alone |
Spot on sarge.
It's a truly rare ILB that deserves to go in the 1st.
The skills required for the position are simply not as hard to comeby as the skills required for other positions, namely those you mention.
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JustPlainNasty
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7327
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Another reason why Teo is being over valued. It is possible he could go like 8 or something , but I wouldn't advise it. The only reason I would consider drafting him anywhere near that is a "Jeter" type factor, but based on skills and abilities alone I'd have a very hard time agreeing that his value is that high.
The value for Thomas comes in on how much you believe he will be able to rush the passer. Otherwise he is a more like an early 2nd round value. If you are looking at him more for OLB he is probably a 1st round talent but I'm not sure that is his most suited position. If you are getting an ILB that is versatile and can rush effectively from the middle then more so late 1st. If just a solid ILB then somewhere in the 2nd.
I think it lies in the middle but should be no chance he is available when we pick in the 2nd, although I was amazed when Bowman slid past us, but off field stuff had to come into play there.
I have one odd concern with him, his neck, its an odd build, not sure what that equates to but it is different.
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Gatoradus
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2631
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:23 am Post subject: |
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Also when evaluating a pass-rusher, you have to look into more than just his "motor". To be honest, what pass-rusher doesn't have a motor? Bruce davis of ours have a great motor. I have learned to watch for those things; strengths and weaknesses, how does this player avoid his weakness and enhance into his strengths? Even players in hall of famer have their limits but play beyond the ability due to great football IQ. One come to mind; Howie Long. Kevin Greene, even.
When watching Dion Jordan, his size at first glance was a concern. He appears to use his body very well, when facing a bull-rushing tackles he'd try to get a coverage sack by running longer route or make some shuffle moves. Facing leaner, passing blocker he'd just bull-rush the tackle. Its almost a total win for him, this doesn't even include his coverage ability and he'd be able to get physical with tight ends in nfl. That's why I was entirely. Excited of the idea he could fall to us. If you ask me, dion jordan flash more elite potentials than jarvis jones have. |
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SteelProven
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 12212
Location: Ramstein, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:16 am Post subject: |
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Can't say I know to much about D. Jordan, but watching the Fresno video was kind of a concern. I did like that he is a pass rusher that gets reps in pass coverage which isn't a normal thing for most teams.
Jarvis Jones reminds of of the typical SEC DE/OLB good in college and not the same in the league.
Chase Thomas seems like a effort type of guy doesn't have much true skill. I think he's probably better at ILB then OLB. I'd wouldn't take him in the first round though.
I really still stuck on Brandon Jenkins yes I know he's coming off a injury, but he's would be amazing talent in Pittsburgh.
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JustPlainNasty
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7327
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| Gatoradus wrote: | Also when evaluating a pass-rusher, you have to look into more than just his "motor". To be honest, what pass-rusher doesn't have a motor? Bruce davis of ours have a great motor. I have learned to watch for those things; strengths and weaknesses, how does this player avoid his weakness and enhance into his strengths? Even players in hall of famer have their limits but play beyond the ability due to great football IQ. One come to mind; Howie Long. Kevin Greene, even.
When watching Dion Jordan, his size at first glance was a concern. He appears to use his body very well, when facing a bull-rushing tackles he'd try to get a coverage sack by running longer route or make some shuffle moves. Facing leaner, passing blocker he'd just bull-rush the tackle. Its almost a total win for him, this doesn't even include his coverage ability and he'd be able to get physical with tight ends in nfl. That's why I was entirely. Excited of the idea he could fall to us. If you ask me, dion jordan flash more elite potentials than jarvis jones have. |
Most of them don't. Effort high and very similar down to down. Definitions vary.
I would only qualify maybe two or three guys in this draft as having a true motor.
I can only think of a few in the pros. For example Lamarr Woodley is not a good example of a high motor guy. Tamba Hali is historically known or at least very much was in college.
Of course all of these guys bring it, but to qualify as high motor you have to be relentless in your effort every single down.
Melvin Ingram was a high motor guy last year.
Really only John Simon comes to mind off the top of my head for this year. Thomas for example has a good motor but tails off from time to time this year.
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gatek99
Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 5252
Location: Ytown, Ohio 1 hour northwest of the Steelers
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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John Simon sans Skov, our future replacements of Foote and Harrison
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Gatoradus
Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Posts: 2631
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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Fair enough. Yes, definitions are different in every aspects. My initial thought was... you know that kid, Rudy from the movie? He has a great motor. Doesn't mean... he's able to put in his effort onto the field. It take IQ, fatigueness, athleticism, size, and especially talent.
If I'm following you right, those are the players that play without fatigues, play until whistle, and has good accrelations, yes?
That's your definition of "motor"? |
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kethnaab
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10115
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| treat88 wrote: | | The skills required for the position are simply not as hard to comeby as the skills required for other positions, namely those you mention. |
and more specifically, the delta between a 1st rounder and a 4th rounder at ILB just won't be as large as it USUALLY is between a 1st and 4th round edge rusher
yes, there are exceptions to every rule.
| JustPlainNasty wrote: | | The value for Thomas comes in on how much you believe he will be able to rush the passer. Otherwise he is a more like an early 2nd round value. |
and he didn't rush that often this season. I'm hoping that drops his value. Another guy is the kid from WSU, but he got hurt, so he might be a late rounder.
| Gatoradus wrote: | | When watching Dion Jordan, his size at first glance was a concern. He appears to use his body very well, when facing a bull-rushing tackles he'd try to get a coverage sack by running longer route or make some shuffle moves. Facing leaner, passing blocker he'd just bull-rush the tackle. Its almost a total win for him, this doesn't even include his coverage ability and he'd be able to get physical with tight ends in nfl. That's why I was entirely. Excited of the idea he could fall to us. If you ask me, dion jordan flash more elite potentials than jarvis jones have. |
distinct possibility. He's a super-high upside guy with a really low floor. Tough to argue with that freakness, which is why I think he'll be long gone
| SteelProven wrote: | Chase Thomas seems like a effort type of guy doesn't have much true skill. I think he's probably better at ILB then OLB. I'd wouldn't take him in the first round though.
I really still stuck on Brandon Jenkins yes I know he's coming off a injury, but he's would be amazing talent in Pittsburgh. |
agree re: Chase Thomas.
I'd like to see Jenkins, but as I said, I'm an injury-averse kinda guy |
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jebrick
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10168
Location: Indianapolis
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| gatek99 wrote: | | John Simon sans Skov, our future replacements of Foote and Harrison |
Not a fan of Simon. Workout warrior who is topped out in terms of improvement. Meaning very low ceiling and middle floor. He will be a mid round pick. He is defiantly not a OLB. He has zero hip flexibility and has no real explosion. He is relentless but that is about it.
If I'm look mid round OLB I look at Ryne Giddins(Southern florida) or Chris Smith (Arkansas).
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JustPlainNasty
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7327
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| jebrick wrote: | | gatek99 wrote: | | John Simon sans Skov, our future replacements of Foote and Harrison |
Not a fan of Simon. Workout warrior who is topped out in terms of improvement. Meaning very low ceiling and middle floor. He will be a mid round pick. He is defiantly not a OLB. He has zero hip flexibility and has no real explosion. He is relentless but that is about it.
If I'm look mid round OLB I look at Ryne Giddins(Southern florida) or Chris Smith (Arkansas). |
Not that Woodley really has any of those abilities either. Simon just has a constant motor. Not saying you're wrong but Woodley is not great in coverage nor was Kevin Greene, one side is typically asked to be more of an elephant. It hurts his stock but doesn't make him incapable of providing value or being an OLB. Ability to play multiple roles always garners higher value but an excellent fit in a role such as rush LB can make up for it.
Id be more than happy to take a chance on him in the 3rd, but look for him to go in the second with any kind of showing at the combine, especially if he shows at all in the drills. Senior Bowl may be a telling opportunity as well.
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jebrick
Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 10168
Location: Indianapolis
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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Woodley was explosive off the ball. Simon is not explosive. Woodley can actually turn his hips. I do not think Simon can turn his hips over 3 degrees without the rest of his trunk ( including his head following). Simon is going to play in the NFL as a backup UT on a 4-3 team.
Basically, if you are kind of mad at what Woodley looks like NOW by bulking up, do not draft Simon.
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"You build with draft choices. You find people with talents adaptable to your plans and then you teach them to do things the way we do them." - Chuck Noll |
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SteelProven
Joined: 20 Apr 2005
Posts: 12212
Location: Ramstein, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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Don't know the current status of Brandon Jenkins injury, but if he's a participant in the combine. Then I think he'll show what talent he really is and I doubt the Steelers get a realistic chance of drafting him.
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JustPlainNasty
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7327
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| SteelProven wrote: | | Don't know the current status of Brandon Jenkins injury, but if he's a participant in the combine. Then I think he'll show what talent he really is and I doubt the Steelers get a realistic chance of drafting him. |
I'm sure he'll skip combine and just do private workout closer to the draft if healthy.
I have said all along that I felt he was the best pure pass rusher available. I had him as my preseason #7 overall and am reluctant to take him out of my top 32 overall prospects. That doesn't mean he is going in the 1st but that I believe he is still a top 32 talent.
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Do something you love so much you'd gladly do it for free, learn to do it so well, people will gladly pay you for it. - Walt Disney |
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JustPlainNasty
Joined: 11 Feb 2008
Posts: 7327
Location: Las Vegas
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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Watching the Kent State @ Rutgers game and this play happened.
I don't ever think I've seen one quite like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZE2dfpWy9c
Notably Fackler had another crazy interception with similar type reaction earlier in the game, but that was more you typical D-lineman gets his hands up and makes a crazy tip play catch. The one above however made me say Wow!
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Do something you love so much you'd gladly do it for free, learn to do it so well, people will gladly pay you for it. - Walt Disney |
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waffles7
Joined: 18 Feb 2010
Posts: 4888
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| JustPlainNasty wrote: | Watching the Kent State @ Rutgers game and this play happened.
I don't ever think I've seen one quite like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZE2dfpWy9c
Notably Fackler had another crazy interception with similar type reaction earlier in the game, but that was more you typical D-lineman gets his hands up and makes a crazy tip play catch. The one above however made me say Wow! |
Current Golden Flash right here. I taught him everything he knows 
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