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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:

By playing Veldheer at RT in 2013 he can be franchised at RT $ in 2014 if need be.


There's no such thing.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:

It's certainly not ideal, but I doubt it as the reason he gets pushed into the pocket often, or chewed up by an elite rusher occasionally. It's probably because no matter what he learns or what you teach him, this is generally the best he can do.


Yeah, no player has ever improved in the NFL. Great players are great right away. And 3rd rounders making the jump from unknown colleges obviously have no hope of ever improving with pro coaching.


Not what I said (read the word probably in my statement a little closer, again that says "probably"), but conversely, players tend to show their permanent weaknesses within the first 3 years. It is like imaging DHB will catch with his hands if you give him a couple more years. Will he? PROBABLY not.


I haven't noticed Veldheer having a major issue that could hinder his develoment at his position like DHB has. Obviously, you can be worried with a WR who has an issue catching the ball. What's Veldheer issue?
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macklemore


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
What makes you think I was talking about your draft?


the thread you are in
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:

It's certainly not ideal, but I doubt it as the reason he gets pushed into the pocket often, or chewed up by an elite rusher occasionally. It's probably because no matter what he learns or what you teach him, this is generally the best he can do.


Yeah, no player has ever improved in the NFL. Great players are great right away. And 3rd rounders making the jump from unknown colleges obviously have no hope of ever improving with pro coaching.


Not what I said (read the word probably in my statement a little closer, again that says "probably"), but conversely, players tend to show their permanent weaknesses within the first 3 years. It is like imaging DHB will catch with his hands if you give him a couple more years. Will he? PROBABLY not.


I haven't noticed Veldheer having a major issue that could hinder his develoment at his position like DHB has. Obviously, you can be worried with a WR who has an issue catching the ball. What's Veldheer issue?


John Abraham.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
What makes you think I was talking about your draft?


the thread you are in



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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
holyghost wrote:

It's certainly not ideal, but I doubt it as the reason he gets pushed into the pocket often, or chewed up by an elite rusher occasionally. It's probably because no matter what he learns or what you teach him, this is generally the best he can do.


Yeah, no player has ever improved in the NFL. Great players are great right away. And 3rd rounders making the jump from unknown colleges obviously have no hope of ever improving with pro coaching.


Not what I said (read the word probably in my statement a little closer, again that says "probably"), but conversely, players tend to show their permanent weaknesses within the first 3 years. It is like imaging DHB will catch with his hands if you give him a couple more years. Will he? PROBABLY not.


I haven't noticed Veldheer having a major issue that could hinder his develoment at his position like DHB has. Obviously, you can be worried with a WR who has an issue catching the ball. What's Veldheer issue?


John Abraham.


Juqua Parker had his number.
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CrashMan510


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/report-jon-gruden-talking-to-the-raiders-about-a-return/

idk if someone already posted this....

Chucky back to Oakland? holy crap Laughing
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashMan510 wrote:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/04/report-jon-gruden-talking-to-the-raiders-about-a-return/

idk if someone already posted this....

Chucky back to Oakland? holy crap Laughing


This was talked about either yesterday, or the day before.
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attack_in_s/b


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:
attack_in_s/b wrote:
Does anyone actually think Gruden is coming back? For real, as an HC Oakland is the last possible place you want to be... Why would he come out of retirement to come here? Anyone think the reason we got a pansy like DA was because most reputable coaches would rather coach highschool than come here? No one wants to come here. DA was never given a fair shot from start, but what i hate about him is that he seems to have brought back the typical 'Oakland Culture"... need a microscope to find some heart on this team. It's unfortunate b/c between Cable and Hue that looked like the biggest thing we were turning around. That was what was gonna help us the most, make this a team people wanna play for. DA just destroyed that... Oakland is back to it's old rep of playing with no heart, demoralized players, a coach no one really cares for, etc... we've got the losing culture back... thank you DA.



This gave me a good lol. Where was the heart in the team last year when we had the playoffs in sight and the team tanked horribly? 1-4 in the last 5 games - an you talk about how the team had heart under Hue? :lol:


+1. This season has been so horrible that fans have begun to think the Raiders really accomplished something in 2011 that was special.

Also, I'm seriously bored with fans acting like they know how the players feel about Allen. He's demoralizing them? Seriously? Has it even crossed some of your minds that the players ARE the issue here. The majority of the roster is still soiled with Davis players. Those that have always listened to the owner over the coaches. The ones Rod Woodson talked about.

You have to rid yourself of the disease before you can be cured. That's a process.


I think the fans want Gruden back because of his personality. Everyone thinks just because DA isn't flamboyant that he's in over his head, clueless, and should be demoted. And because of that players aren't responding to him, players aren't responding because they make more than him and seen more HCs in the last few years.

Everyone talks about heart, we want to focus on the Kelly's and McClain's who wouldn't play right if Mike Ditka was coach. Look around Reese comes in and plays tough, Burris, Huff, Palmer, veldheer, Wiz, Myers, ect.

We hear about the small of players that don't like him, they probably don't like DA because they know that next year they are getting kicked to the curb.


IMO fans want gruden back because he's the last coach to have a winning season here, and he's a big name... he definitely has the persona to go with it. But with DA it's not about being flamboyant, you look at the best coaches, particularly the younger ones. They are losing their sh**t on the sidelines, when the team scores they go crazy. Celebrate with the players, scream at refs, etc... DA's got one face on the sideline... the "i hope i don't get fired this week" face. IMO coaching is as much about leading by example as it is the schemes. Hue was fired up, the players fed off it. Cable was so fired up he even jacked up one of our players... at the very least that's what we need. IMO the Harbaugh brothers are a perfect example of what im talking about. You can't deny that players respond to a coach like that.

As well, i feel like when we talk about the team having no heart we are more specifically referring to the defense
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attack_in_s/b


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Chali21"]
big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:
attack_in_s/b wrote:
Does anyone actually think Gruden is coming back? For real, as an HC Oakland is the last possible place you want to be... Why would he come out of retirement to come here? Anyone think the reason we got a pansy like DA was because most reputable coaches would rather coach highschool than come here? No one wants to come here. DA was never given a fair shot from start, but what i hate about him is that he seems to have brought back the typical 'Oakland Culture"... need a microscope to find some heart on this team. It's unfortunate b/c between Cable and Hue that looked like the biggest thing we were turning around. That was what was gonna help us the most, make this a team people wanna play for. DA just destroyed that... Oakland is back to it's old rep of playing with no heart, demoralized players, a coach no one really cares for, etc... we've got the losing culture back... thank you DA.



This gave me a good lol. Where was the heart in the team last year when we had the playoffs in sight and the team tanked horribly? 1-4 in the last 5 games - an you talk about how the team had heart under Hue? :lol:



You can't say that because we didn't make the playoffs last year we had no heart.... you could say we didn't make the playoffs for a lot of reasons. Getting a new QB that hadn't played in over a year, losing our star runningback when he was actually playing like a star RB, tough schedule, etc... Man, look at the last 4 games... we might as well have not even showed up. These games weren't even competitive, we just got totally beat on. As i have said before, i dont judge heart based on our record. At the end of the day some teams just have far superior players than others... but when you're getting blown out by the 2nd half constantly it leads me to believe that the players (or at least a lot of them) have already rolled over, possibly before the game even begun.


+1. This season has been so horrible that fans have begun to think the Raiders really accomplished something in 2011 that was special.

Also, I'm seriously bored with fans acting like they know how the players feel about Allen. He's demoralizing them? Seriously? Has it even crossed some of your minds that the players ARE the issue here. The majority of the roster is still soiled with Davis players. Those that have always listened to the owner over the coaches. The ones Rod Woodson talked about.

You have to rid yourself of the disease before you can be cured. That's a process.


On paper we didn't do anything special last year. But look at the last 10 years prior, our best record was what, 5-11? and half the time it was a struggle just to get to that. We've seen bad draft pick after bad draft pick, new coaches every year... when you take our circumstances into account, 8-8 definitely seems special. The first time we've actually been in playoff contension in how long? Not even just the usual BS wins that come at the end of the season for us and inflate our record... we were actually a team with legitimate playoff hopes. That's something we hadn't seen in a decade. At the very least, it was a step forward... all we've seen for so long is steps backwards... even when it seems like we can't really go any further backwards. The fact that it seems like we went 1 step forward and 3 backwards this year is what frustrates me so.

Also, i don't claim to know how the players feel. It is simply my opinion... based on A) the way we play and B) What i've seen from DA on the sidelines and in press conferences and. Simply my opinion, i'm not a psychologist, mind reader, etc... I'm just expressing my opinion, same as you are.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Darbsk wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
We all wish Gruden would come back, but highly unlikely so Allen will stay.

Also Jared Veldheer is not a Left Tackle so I can see the Raiders drafting a Left Tackle, and moving Jared Veldheer either to Right Tackle or like Gallery to Left Gaurd.


No me, that would be like Art Shell part deux IMO.

Good point about Veldheer though.


Seriously? One man has actually proven to be a sound HC with a modern feel for the game and players. The other hired Tom Walsh from a bed and breakfast to run his offense.

Laughing Laughing Laughing


Seriously. When you scratch the surface and look a little deeper........

Gruden was the right man in the right place with the Raiders at the turn of the 2000s, but the team was built through FA by AL Davis. Some would say that Gruden was a motivator and man manager but just think about the players that needed 'motivation'.........Greg Biekert, Tim Brown, Rich Gannon, Lincoln Kennedy, Rod Woodson......... and so on.

Not to take a way anything from Gruden but he had the last great Raider team built for him by Al Davis who he guided, he was not brought in to build a roster or nurture young talent or develop players. The team in Tampa was already assembled with a great D. He basically had success in the exact opposite of what we are trying to currently do.

IMO he has been out of coaching for too long to walk into a rebuilding team and take the reigns, he needs a ready assembled squad he can dictate and guide, theres also a reason why they say 'never go back' as Art Shell found out.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darbsk wrote:

Seriously. When you scratch the surface and look a little deeper........

Gruden was the right man in the right place with the Raiders at the turn of the 2000s, but the team was built through FA by AL Davis. Some would say that Gruden was a motivator and man manager but just think about the players that needed 'motivation'.........Greg Biekert, Tim Brown, Rich Gannon, Lincoln Kennedy, Rod Woodson......... and so on.

Not to take a way anything from Gruden but he had the last great Raider team built for him by Al Davis who he guided, he was not brought in to build a roster or nurture young talent or develop players. The team in Tampa was already assembled with a great D. He basically had success in the exact opposite of what we are trying to currently do.

IMO he has been out of coaching for too long to walk into a rebuilding team and take the reigns, he needs a ready assembled squad he can dictate and guide, theres also a reason why they say 'never go back' as Art Shell found out.


When he came to Oakland, he only had Biekert and Brown. He turned the team into winners and throughout the years, the vets were added to make a run. He did a fine job as a HC. Imo, his offense also made Gannon look better than he really was. That's what good coaches do, they optimize players talent. Which is part of the reason i'm far from convinced Allen is the right guy. He isn't optimizing anything so far.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Darbsk wrote:

Seriously. When you scratch the surface and look a little deeper........

Gruden was the right man in the right place with the Raiders at the turn of the 2000s, but the team was built through FA by AL Davis. Some would say that Gruden was a motivator and man manager but just think about the players that needed 'motivation'.........Greg Biekert, Tim Brown, Rich Gannon, Lincoln Kennedy, Rod Woodson......... and so on.

Not to take a way anything from Gruden but he had the last great Raider team built for him by Al Davis who he guided, he was not brought in to build a roster or nurture young talent or develop players. The team in Tampa was already assembled with a great D. He basically had success in the exact opposite of what we are trying to currently do.

IMO he has been out of coaching for too long to walk into a rebuilding team and take the reigns, he needs a ready assembled squad he can dictate and guide, theres also a reason why they say 'never go back' as Art Shell found out.


When he came to Oakland, he only had Biekert and Brown. He turned the team into winners and throughout the years, the vets were added to make a run. He did a fine job as a HC. Imo, his offense also made Gannon look better than he really was. That's what good coaches do, they optimize players talent. Which is part of the reason i'm far from convinced Allen is the right guy. He isn't optimizing anything so far.


What scares the hell out of me is that I think he might not have even thought of that kind of stuff. At least on offense. Seems like he just was like 'Hmmmm, I need an OC. The ZBS always seems to work and we had a good offense last year. I'll get a ZBS guy to make it even better and not think about it'.

On D, I don't have many qualms. He knew we had CB problems so he instituted a lot more zone to mask them. Fits our LBs who were poor in man. So he picked up Wheeler, who was cheap, could blitz and knows zone from playing in Indy. I don't think anyone expected our DL to be such a POS. Overall, his defensive moves make sense to me. Some of them didn't work out, but he did have some bad luck with injuries.

I may take issue with RMK allowing Allen to follow that kind of train of thought on offense if that happened. But I get the feeling he was like 'OK, the guy knows what he wants. Whatever. I'm going to let him do it, out of respect and be hands off.'. I don't think he thought it'd be such a trainwreck. I know none of us here thought it would be this bad either.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:

By playing Veldheer at RT in 2013 he can be franchised at RT $ in 2014 if need be.


There's no such thing.


Sorry! This is correct. I was thinking of a situation in Baltimore where the Ravens attempted to switch OT Gaither to RT in a thinly veiled attempt to extend his contract at RT money. However, using the franchise tag in consecutive years is not as punitive as it used to be, if need be.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
What scares the hell out of me is that I think he might not have even thought of that kind of stuff. At least on offense. Seems like he just was like 'Hmmmm, I need an OC. The ZBS always seems to work and we had a good offense last year. I'll get a ZBS guy to make it even better and not think about it'.

On D, I don't have many qualms. He knew we had CB problems so he instituted a lot more zone to mask them. Fits our LBs who were poor in man. So he picked up Wheeler, who was cheap, could blitz and knows zone from playing in Indy. I don't think anyone expected our DL to be such a POS. Overall, his defensive moves make sense to me. Some of them didn't work out, but he did have some bad luck with injuries.

I may take issue with RMK allowing Allen to follow that kind of train of thought on offense if that happened. But I get the feeling he was like 'OK, the guy knows what he wants. Whatever. I'm going to let him do it, out of respect and be hands off.'. I don't think he thought it'd be such a trainwreck. I know none of us here thought it would be this bad either.


I believe (though there's no proof obviously) that Reggie went out to find a coach with similar ideals to himself, that was his primary motivation. He wants the Raiders to be a scheme first team who drafts and brings in guys to suit our system rather than find a system to suit the players that are brought in.

IMO he wants a ball control WCO with a ZBS because they are generally considered easier to find value players that can fit. He wanted a defensive minded coach specifically i think and Knapp is a stop gap at OC until they can upgrade IMO as he was the last turkey left in the shop that runs the scheme they are implementing.

I don't think he selected the HC in Dennis Allen and then let him just run things his way, i think they share the same vision for the long-term for the Raiders style of schemes both offensive and defensive, though we are yet to understand due to injuries, talent etc. what the defensive master plan will be Smile
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