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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore
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macklemore


Joined: 27 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
pretty bad


you can't fix all the problems in one offseason, the defense will take atleast 4 years.

the offense is the easiest to fix, we just need to switch schemes and improve the line, I did that.

I also added an extra 1st round pick for the 2014 draft, which could help us in trading up for Jadevon Clowney or adding two defensive prospects, we could double dip at CB or DE or draft one of each.
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macklemore


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Trading down is the only sensible option. We need as much talent as we can get, and the top of the draft is kinda weak this year.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread


Great minds think alike.

My logic on Warmack is simple. Not saying the team or McKenzie will use this logic, just that it's what I would do.
We all know we desperately need an impact lineman / pass rusher. But we're probably many players away from having a good D. Throw alot of picks and FA at the problem, but something has to carry this team to a better record while we continue to rebuild and develop and it won't be the defense. That falls on the best players we have. Who just happen to be Palmer, Reece, McFadden. 2 RBs and the QB. So what do you do to help them - OL. And what do you do when 2 of them are running backs, and your weakest line position is Guard, and possibly the best prospect at his position in the draft also happens to a Guard? Draft a guard, that guy.
Then maybe the offense upgrades it's weakest link with a strength, and has the chance to give the team a decent boost while everything else is worked on. What I would try to do...
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macklemore


Joined: 27 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread


Great minds think alike.

My logic on Warmack is simple. Not saying the team or McKenzie will use this logic, just that it's what I would do.
We all know we desperately need an impact lineman / pass rusher. But we're probably many players away from having a good D. Throw alot of picks and FA at the problem, but something has to carry this team to a better record while we continue to rebuild and develop and it won't be the defense. That falls on the best players we have. Who just happen to be Palmer, Reece, McFadden. 2 RBs and the QB. So what do you do to help them - OL. And what do you do when 2 of them are running backs, and your weakest line position is Guard, and possibly the best prospect at his position in the draft also happens to a Guard? Draft a guard, that guy.
Then maybe the offense upgrades it's weakest link with a strength, and has the chance to give the team a decent boost while everything else is worked on. What I would try to do...


I considered Warmack, but look at our division, Von Miller, Justin Houston and Shaun Phillips all rush the RT. Who do we have to fear in the interior?
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread


Great minds think alike.

My logic on Warmack is simple. Not saying the team or McKenzie will use this logic, just that it's what I would do.
We all know we desperately need an impact lineman / pass rusher. But we're probably many players away from having a good D. Throw alot of picks and FA at the problem, but something has to carry this team to a better record while we continue to rebuild and develop and it won't be the defense. That falls on the best players we have. Who just happen to be Palmer, Reece, McFadden. 2 RBs and the QB. So what do you do to help them - OL. And what do you do when 2 of them are running backs, and your weakest line position is Guard, and possibly the best prospect at his position in the draft also happens to a Guard? Draft a guard, that guy.
Then maybe the offense upgrades it's weakest link with a strength, and has the chance to give the team a decent boost while everything else is worked on. What I would try to do...


I considered Warmack, but look at our division, Von Miller, Justin Houston and Shaun Phillips all rush the RT. Who do we have to fear in the interior?


Cooper Carlisle and Mike Brisiel.

Part of our rapid descent has been leaving it all on Carson Palmer to throw 40+ times every game, which has been overlooked. We gotta run again.

I realize RT is a need, but RT isn't going to be drafted by us high in the 1st. And I never said not to address it. We ave all of our other picks and free agency with which to address RT. I just think Warmack makes a ton of sense, and he's one of the few guys in the whole draft who is the undisputed best player at his position. Not only that, but looks like a player who could quickly emerge to be the best player at his position in the pros as well.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread


Great minds think alike.

My logic on Warmack is simple. Not saying the team or McKenzie will use this logic, just that it's what I would do.
We all know we desperately need an impact lineman / pass rusher. But we're probably many players away from having a good D. Throw alot of picks and FA at the problem, but something has to carry this team to a better record while we continue to rebuild and develop and it won't be the defense. That falls on the best players we have. Who just happen to be Palmer, Reece, McFadden. 2 RBs and the QB. So what do you do to help them - OL. And what do you do when 2 of them are running backs, and your weakest line position is Guard, and possibly the best prospect at his position in the draft also happens to a Guard? Draft a guard, that guy.
Then maybe the offense upgrades it's weakest link with a strength, and has the chance to give the team a decent boost while everything else is worked on. What I would try to do...


I considered Warmack, but look at our division, Von Miller, Justin Houston and Shaun Phillips all rush the RT. Who do we have to fear in the interior?


Evidently everyone Laughing

Seriously, our guard play this year has been awful. I can't see us moving on from Brisiel yet but Coop is as good as gone. Then again, that's what I said last season.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread


Great minds think alike.

My logic on Warmack is simple. Not saying the team or McKenzie will use this logic, just that it's what I would do.
We all know we desperately need an impact lineman / pass rusher. But we're probably many players away from having a good D. Throw alot of picks and FA at the problem, but something has to carry this team to a better record while we continue to rebuild and develop and it won't be the defense. That falls on the best players we have. Who just happen to be Palmer, Reece, McFadden. 2 RBs and the QB. So what do you do to help them - OL. And what do you do when 2 of them are running backs, and your weakest line position is Guard, and possibly the best prospect at his position in the draft also happens to a Guard? Draft a guard, that guy.
Then maybe the offense upgrades it's weakest link with a strength, and has the chance to give the team a decent boost while everything else is worked on. What I would try to do...


I considered Warmack, but look at our division, Von Miller, Justin Houston and Shaun Phillips all rush the RT. Who do we have to fear in the interior?


i still say the rt is just as important as the lt in a offense
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
i still say the rt is just as important as the lt in a offense


The LT is a little higher on the list since they typically are blocking the best pass rushers, but I still pretty much agree with you. If you need a RT and their is a stud RT available, I dont see why you wouldnt take him with a high pick. The only time I wouldnt is when you have so many other problems like we do. We should be in line for a top pass rusher or DT. If they are all taken before us, I would be all for drafting the top T. The better our offensive line, the better our offense, the better our team.
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I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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macklemore


Joined: 27 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
macklemore wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
And to pile on to the flip side of your argument, it turns out a 3rd round OT from Hillsdale college was a nice find, but not the second coming of Orlando Pace. Not a big deal, and not a Pro Bowler either.


True but at the same time, we don't know if Joeckel is that kind of player either. Unless the draft gets shaken up big time, I only want to pick Joeckel if we can't get Star or Moore


Honestly, I'm not even concerned about the OT position and if I was it wouldn't be concern about Veldheer. Just pointing out he's not elite and probably never will be.

We need to address RT, but the Guards need work even worse. So if I had a choice I'd love to see us trade back only a few spots, pick up an extra pick or two, and grab Warmack. He seems like the only prospect in this entire draft who is THE standout at his position. Too bad it's at G which is one of the least valued positions, because if he was an OT he'd likely go #1. If anything, we just need so bad to crush this pick regardless of the position and I vote for him as long as it is in a draft position where the value is OK, meaning not top 5..


Literally said the same thing about crushing it in the other thread


Great minds think alike.

My logic on Warmack is simple. Not saying the team or McKenzie will use this logic, just that it's what I would do.
We all know we desperately need an impact lineman / pass rusher. But we're probably many players away from having a good D. Throw alot of picks and FA at the problem, but something has to carry this team to a better record while we continue to rebuild and develop and it won't be the defense. That falls on the best players we have. Who just happen to be Palmer, Reece, McFadden. 2 RBs and the QB. So what do you do to help them - OL. And what do you do when 2 of them are running backs, and your weakest line position is Guard, and possibly the best prospect at his position in the draft also happens to a Guard? Draft a guard, that guy.
Then maybe the offense upgrades it's weakest link with a strength, and has the chance to give the team a decent boost while everything else is worked on. What I would try to do...


I considered Warmack, but look at our division, Von Miller, Justin Houston and Shaun Phillips all rush the RT. Who do we have to fear in the interior?


Evidently everyone Laughing

Seriously, our guard play this year has been awful. I can't see us moving on from Brisiel yet but Coop is as good as gone. Then again, that's what I said last season.


I drafted Gabe Jackson to replace Carlisle.. and we still have Tony Bergstrom.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What makes you think I was talking about your draft?
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Also Veldheer is perfectly fine at LT. He's not elite but he's certainly good enough to start and if we moved him to RT he'd simply leave when his contract runs out.


True. People talk about continuity a lot, well there's no bigger deal than having to change position coach every single year which is what Veldheer has been going thru in his 3 years career. What about switching back and forth between ZBS and PBS? How could he be elite right now?


I don't know. He's always struggled against speed rushers and always has been good at run blocking. And he's smart and at a decent skill level to begin with. I think it should be at least considered. I'm not upset that he isn't elite but at the same time, I'm not sure he ever can be. And since we could possibly staring the best LT prospect this year in the face when we're on the clock I don't see how this shouldn't at least be a consideration.


Since Veldheer is generally lesser at pass blocking than run blocking, I'm not sure how switching back and forth between ZBS and PBS relates. They're run blocking systems? This is more in reference to the poster above you.

He's a good player, that's it and that's the reality a Raider fan struggles to see. He's not what everyone hopes or hypes. He's a good player. Not nearly elite, probably never will be. And not irreplaceable or untouchable. But all accounts point to him being a quiet hard worker, so we don't have enough of that to go around right now. And since he can actually do his job with a modicum of aptitude, I think it's pretty clear we have much bigger more pressing needs all over the roster than to tend to his position right now.


First of all Veldheer is one of my favorite players on the team. Veldheer has really worked to reshape his body. However, Veldheer is susceptible to the inside speed rush. Iirc, one of the highest in the league last season. A few points:

Veldheer has played RT before and didn't gripe
By all accounts Veldheer is the ultimate team player he would be MORE than willing to get the best starting 5 on the field imo.
By playing Veldheer at RT in 2013 he can be franchised at RT $ in 2014 if need be.
Using the franchise tag in consecutive years is not as punitive as it was under the new CBA.
Imo, Veldheer at RT makes him a potential Pro-Bowler rather than just solid.
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