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Frazier's Future/Future HC?
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Is Frazier the HC in 2013?
Yes?
55%
 55%  [ 19 ]
No?
44%
 44%  [ 15 ]
Total Votes : 34

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rpmwr19


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
rpmwr19 wrote:
Klomp wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
There were some bad losses against teams who are similar to us or worse, like the Redskins, Seahawks, Buccaneers and Bears.


The Bears are not similar to us.

They technically run a base cover-2...


I don't think he was talking schematically.

I know he wasn't, just being facetious.
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Freakout


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vikes_Bolts1228 wrote:
Freakout wrote:

I said before the season that our defense would be better than many expected. We had too much talent, when healthy, to be that bad. Other than health the problem was Leslie Fraizer making Fred Pagac the defensive coordinator.


Question: Does the DC pick the scheme or is it the HC? Or maybe both?

I for one think that the Cover 2 is an obsolete defense in today's era. Good QBs (like the 3 QBs we play twice a season) can pick apart the open zones. I also don't think this team has the personnel to run a successful Cover 2 pass defense including linebackers who are poor in pass coverage.

I kind of think of it like the Timberwolves offense under Kurt Rambis. Rambis tried to force his Laker offense onto a team that wasn't suited for it. The result? Well we know...

That's one thing I don't like about Frazier. It seems he's sticking with the defense that he's comfortable running not what best suits the team/times.

My opinion. May be off.


Really depends on the coach. Fraizer being a former defensive coordinator is going to have a lot of input on the defense and scheme we use. Typically they have their nose stuck on the side of the ball they are familiar with. Same with Childress and the offense.

As for the Tampa 2 / Cover 2, I do not think it is obsolete. It just requires very specific players at certain positions. I do question whether Fraizer really grasps it the way Tomlin did. You have to be an absolute rock against the run to make it successful.

I agree about our talent not fitting anymore. Robison isn't the type of LDE you want when your goal is containment and sealing the edge. Guion is certainly not good at playing the run and occupying blockers. Brinkley as a MLB that can cover the seam? Hilarious to even try it.

For me personally I think the team should make the change to the 3-4. Even if that means trading Jared and Kevin. Ballard and Guyton are better fits at 3-4 DE. Jasper would be much better as a run stopping ILB and Cole would likely fit better in it as well. There may be concerns with Greenway but I don't see a problem with him playing inside. I don't even cringe at the thought of starting Sanford in a true strong safety role. I could see Everson Griffen being a beast in a Bruce Irvin / Aldon Smith role.

I just see Jared Allen showing his age physically and Kevin Williams having the worst year of his career. I am not very enthused about extending either of them. Especially not at the money they will be expecting.

I got a tad of topic but this all relates to keeping Fraizer around.
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vikingsrule


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
There were some bad losses against teams who are similar to us or worse, like the Redskins, Seahawks, Buccaneers and Bears.


The Bears are not similar to us.


How are they not? Realistically, I see a 2-3 win difference between the Bears and Vikings. The Bears Oline is crumbling, I dont think they are going to get far or have much success going forward. They are a fringe playoff team just like the Vikings and I happen to think that the Bears are going to lose three of the next four (MN, GB and Det) to finish 9-7. I think the Vikings finish with 7 or 8 wins. I think the Packers are going to run away with the division once they get some of there players back from injury.
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DJpillz317


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I blame Ponder and Musgrave more than Frazier and Spielman. Honestly, I would keep Ponder next year for one more year to prove himself and fire Musgrave; upgrade the offense and If Ponder sucks, well, our record will also suck and you just draft another QB. This QB class this year has no starters that I'd have any more faith in than Ponder. Barkley looks EXACTLY like Ponder IMO, cept he has 2 1st round WRs and Ponder had nobody in college, and Ponder has nobody in the NFL.
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Klomp


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
How are they not? Realistically, I see a 2-3 win difference between the Bears and Vikings. The Bears Oline is crumbling, I dont think they are going to get far or have much success going forward. They are a fringe playoff team just like the Vikings and I happen to think that the Bears are going to lose three of the next four (MN, GB and Det) to finish 9-7. I think the Vikings finish with 7 or 8 wins. I think the Packers are going to run away with the division once they get some of there players back from injury.


I guess maybe its because I had Chicago pegged as a Super Bowl pick all year.

Green Bay has the same offensive line issues as Chicago does, and has NO running game. Defensively, Chicago is light years ahead of the Packers. Same with special teams.

Chicago will not lose to Detroit. I'm not a gambling man, but I'd probably even put money on that. Sure it's possible they could lose to both us and Green Bay, but I think it's just as likely that they win both of them.
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Vikes_Bolts1228


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Klomp wrote:

Green Bay has the same offensive line issues as Chicago does, and has NO running game.


You couldn't tell that against the Vikes in the 2nd half last Sunday Laughing
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byuvike88


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vikingsrule wrote:
Klomp wrote:
vikingsrule wrote:
There were some bad losses against teams who are similar to us or worse, like the Redskins, Seahawks, Buccaneers and Bears.


The Bears are not similar to us.


How are they not? Realistically, I see a 2-3 win difference between the Bears and Vikings. The Bears Oline is crumbling, I dont think they are going to get far or have much success going forward. They are a fringe playoff team just like the Vikings and I happen to think that the Bears are going to lose three of the next four (MN, GB and Det) to finish 9-7. I think the Vikings finish with 7 or 8 wins. I think the Packers are going to run away with the division once they get some of there players back from injury.


That's a tough pill to swallow, takes a lot of humilty to admit it Confused
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thestonedkoala


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In response to the beautifully written analysis by Arctic; we understand that the firebrand and pulpit spewing guys like Parcells and Ditka don't have the best results. Frazier might have the demeanor and the experience but he's missing the football intelligence, and that's just putting it mildly and as nicely as I can. And while yes Bilichik might not be a fiery guy, he at least shows some reaction, some sort of emotion when things go bad. Remember him shoving the ref?

Mostly Frazier comes off as very passive and very dull. He is also terrible at making adjustments. This is a 2 quarter team. I will say he's gotten slightly better but it doesn't seem like the Vikings can adjust or do anything after halftime. Getting out to a quick start and putting Minnesota behind a touchdown or two is the best way to beat them because they simply can't adjust. They have a difficult time coming back and winning.

Furthermore, while not every head coach is an expert at both offensive and defensive schemes, the fact that we continue running the same offense that hasn't worked tells me he's way out of depth. He might be an excellent defensive coach, but that doesn't make him a great head coach. He might be a nice guy and all but that doesn't make him a great head coach.

Frazier feels like a depressant when we need some caffeine.
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PurpleMugen


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DJpillz317 wrote:
I blame Ponder and Musgrave more than Frazier and Spielman. Honestly, I would keep Ponder next year for one more year to prove himself and fire Musgrave; upgrade the offense and If Ponder sucks, well, our record will also suck and you just draft another QB. This QB class this year has no starters that I'd have any more faith in than Ponder. Barkley looks EXACTLY like Ponder IMO, cept he has 2 1st round WRs and Ponder had nobody in college, and Ponder has nobody in the NFL.


It's really hard to estimate how to appropriately split the blame. Frazier, Musgrave, Spielman, Ponder - they are all culprits in this debacle in their own ways, but I think I currently agree with the way you have it. Ponder is the chief problem imo, followed closely by Musgrave, and then Frazier and Spielman have a hand in it all as well but not to the same extent.
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ArcticNorseman


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koala . . . maybe you are correct in presuming Frazier is not a "great head coach" and then again maybe he'll prove he is, eventually. Isn't the standard by which coaches are judged related to SB wins, longevity, sustaining excellence and overall W-L record?

I'm curious how you determine Frazier lacks football intelligence . . . he played college football, made a roster as an undrafted FA, and started for a Superbowl Champion. So, his last year of playing was in 1985-86, and he took some time off prior to returning to coaching at the college level, but he's been working in the NFL for at least 13 years as a coach.

I have not personally talked with Leslie Frazier about the game, never sat down with him for an interview to discuss game-by-game strategy. Sure, I've been vocal about things I've seen on TV -- nowhere near game speed, but less sideline and he makes split-second decisions on things that occur 50 yards from him -- how does he process that info?

Since Frazier made an NFL roster as a FA when the draft was 12 rounds, and there were 8 less teams, one would suspect he wasn't drafted because he lacked certain physical stature or prowess. Yet, he got a tryout and made the team -- and became a starter. What do you think could've made up for that lack of physical ability?

I do agree with some of your points on making adjustments in games . . . even in the last one, I would've handed that ball to Adrian 17 times in a row . . . lol. That said -- watch his post game presser video closely - - - in no way was he passive and dull. He was composed, but extremely P!$$T.
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thestonedkoala


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArcticNorseman wrote:
Koala . . . maybe you are correct in presuming Frazier is not a "great head coach" and then again maybe he'll prove he is, eventually. Isn't the standard by which coaches are judged related to SB wins, longevity, sustaining excellence and overall W-L record?


His W-L is atrocious right now. I think you want to see coaches grow and see the team grow. We've only gone backwards in many different ways.

Quote:

I'm curious how you determine Frazier lacks football intelligence . . . he played college football, made a roster as an undrafted FA, and started for a Superbowl Champion.


That's much different. Playing and coaching is very different. I mean would you consider Pat Williams a coaching candidate? Randall Gay? (he started for two different Super Bowl Champions being an UDFA)

The adjustments are the biggest I have with Frazier. Good teams find ways to win. Bad teams find ways to lose. And that's what it seems like with Minnesota. Frazier seems to be constantly out coached. His time management is horrendous. His adjustments after half time are terrible. And all around, the team has no urgency or pace.
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ArcticNorseman


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thestonedkoala wrote:
ArcticNorseman wrote:
Koala . . . maybe you are correct in presuming Frazier is not a "great head coach" and then again maybe he'll prove he is, eventually. Isn't the standard by which coaches are judged related to SB wins, longevity, sustaining excellence and overall W-L record?


His W-L is atrocious right now. I think you want to see coaches grow and see the team grow. We've only gone backwards in many different ways.

Quote:

I'm curious how you determine Frazier lacks football intelligence . . . he played college football, made a roster as an undrafted FA, and started for a Superbowl Champion.


That's much different. Playing and coaching is very different. I mean would you consider Pat Williams a coaching candidate? Randall Gay? (he started for two different Super Bowl Champions being an UDFA)

The adjustments are the biggest I have with Frazier. Good teams find ways to win. Bad teams find ways to lose. And that's what it seems like with Minnesota. Frazier seems to be constantly out coached. His time management is horrendous. His adjustments after half time are terrible. And all around, the team has no urgency or pace.


Let me re-phrase my question -- how do you determine whether a coach has football intelligence?

In high school intelligence is graded via tests, homework, SAT and ACT scores . . . later in life there's the GRE, LSAT, MCAT, AIA, PE exams . . . and the list goes on. I've heard of the wonderlic test in football . . . do the coaches have one?

To further elaborate my point, some of the most intelligent people in football have elite football intelligence, but can't generally relate it to others in the HC capacity (ala Mike Martz or Charlie Weiss). I don't know if Frazier has elite football intelligence or not -- but he sure isn't a Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory. Wink

Is Frazier being outcoached at every turn? There have been four games this year I believe he was outcoached, and he outcoached a few . . . in the games where coaching could be graded equal, the Vikes have won and lost games.

On a side topic from other threads . . . All the rhetoric about the early part of the schedule being easy . . . does Indy look like and easy opponent now? The Redskins are still competitive even after losing several good players. The Seahawks and Bucs were two games that we all thought were easy wins, and how'd that turn out? Those are four games where Frazier, his staff and the team under-performed -- well until you look at the other teams' records. I will agree that the Vikes weren't emotionally charged for the Bucs game, but I think the past two games were games that everyone expected the Vikes to lose before training camp began. So, why the angst?

This is the tough part of the Vikes schedule and if The Vikes beat Chicago and GB at home, I think Frazier will have done his part. Now preparing the team for the Texans and Rams on the road -- those will be the real tests of how much effort this team puts in and how well the coaches prepare them.

One final question -- if you were HC, how would you handle Percy this week?
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thestonedkoala


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ArcticNorseman wrote:

Let me re-phrase my question -- how do you determine whether a coach has football intelligence?


You watch the team on the field. You see the adjustments. The constant but small improvements. You look at a guy like Harbaugh (both of them) and a guy like Frazier. Who do you choose? Why?

It's not how you lose, it's the way you lose. Yes, we thought we would lose to the Bears and to the Packers, but you want to see at least a fight. We have an elite defensive end. Zero sacks against one of the worst lines in probably football history. We have one of the greatest linebackers in football history, and our linebackers are terrible.

For me, I would shut down Harvin. This season unfortunately at this point is nearing the lost point.
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CriminalMind


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

With no HC changes this season, Spielman + Frazier are tight to an improved record next season, or could both be gone.

That schedule, we're potentially facing next season, is very difficult
I think Spielman could buy himself, an extra year if he fired Frazier now and brough in his guy.
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disaacs


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rpmwr19 wrote:
It has a lot to do with poor talent, but the coaches are also not putting the players in a position to succeed; that is particularly true on offense.


That isn't necessarily correct. While we certainly can see deficiencies on the team, let's look at all the players having good years under this coaching staff:

Kyle Rudolph
Adrian Peterson
Percy Harvin
Michael Jenkins (not spectacular certainly, but he actually is having a decent season)
Jamarca Sanford
Chris Cook (prior to the injury)
Harrison Smith

There certainly are some coaching staff issues at times, but I still argue that unless the actual talent is upgraded, coaching staff changes aren't going to help. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

It's more than just a coaching staff issue. Firing Musgrave and/or Frazier won't solve the problems. We saw that with Childress. How many people here were clamoring for him to get fired in '07/'08 because his/Bevell's playcalling was terrible? Favre comes in, same playcalling, they go to the NFCC.
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