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A case for REDBALL.... Long Post.
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CowboysTilIDie


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
CowboysTilIDie wrote:
I find it almost impossible to grade team preparation. There is no possible way we can distinguish poor prep from poor execution. I also find it hard to believe a guy as detail oriented and intelligent as Redball doesn't have his team prepared. And I guarantee if you went into the locker room the day before the game and asked them if they feel prepared, they'd say they do.

Now, his game plan and playcalling can certainly be called into question as it should. But, I don't feel there is any way we can accurately grade his preparation of the team.


Oh. No doubt our execution has killed us. But doesn't game plan tie into preparation?


Yea. Your right it does. For me personally, (and its obvious many will disagree) I believe his game plans are sound. Putting together a game plan is not the most difficult part of coaching. Its calling the right plays at the right time and then executing those plays that you have built your game plan around. I agree that his play calling is severely lacking at times, but I also say execution has just as much to do with it as his play calling.

And then, about making adjustments...is that not an extension of game planning? When they go in at halftime and make adjustments, are they not making another gameplan? I just think the gameplanning isn't as much the issue as it is playcalling and executing.
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WizardHawk


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sure, but that's like judging your moms lasagna before its put in the oven. Its going to taste like ish. Jimmy's unbaked bread tasted like ish 2 years in as well.



Yah i guess you are right. Maybe all teams should keep coaches that have done nothing well as far as coaching goes then maybe they would all win superbowls. Gah all we have to do is keep a coach for 3 or 4 years regardless of his performance and we will be successful. Why didnt we think of that before?


Flip side, maybe we should get rid of him just because his first 3 years haven't been good...Houston should have dumped Kubiak long ago....Mike Shanahan should have never been an HC again after his Raiders gig, Belichick too. He sucked in Cleveland. Let's not forget Jimmy Johnson, he had horrible teams to start.

Coaching changes have worked out soo well for Dallas the past 15 years...I say we keep on doing it. That seems completely logical.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CowboysTilIDie wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
CowboysTilIDie wrote:
I find it almost impossible to grade team preparation. There is no possible way we can distinguish poor prep from poor execution. I also find it hard to believe a guy as detail oriented and intelligent as Redball doesn't have his team prepared. And I guarantee if you went into the locker room the day before the game and asked them if they feel prepared, they'd say they do.

Now, his game plan and playcalling can certainly be called into question as it should. But, I don't feel there is any way we can accurately grade his preparation of the team.


Oh. No doubt our execution has killed us. But doesn't game plan tie into preparation?


Yea. Your right it does. For me personally, (and its obvious many will disagree) I believe his game plans are sound. Putting together a game plan is not the most difficult part of coaching. Its calling the right plays at the right time and then executing those plays that you have built your game plan around. I agree that his play calling is severely lacking at times, but I also say execution has just as much to do with it as his play calling.

And then, about making adjustments...is that not an extension of game planning? When they go in at halftime and make adjustments, are they not making another gameplan? I just think the gameplanning isn't as much the issue as it is playcalling and executing.


You and I really don't disagree. I have often been a champion (and lone voice) that our biggest issue is execution and not play-calling. That, in fact, our calls have been perfect for a given situation. I actually love some of the gusty calls: On-side Kicks. 3rd and short - you bomb it, etc.

But there is something to be said that we have not scored 10 points in the first yet all year. Only team to hold that distinction.

There is something to be said that our opponents have outscored us by a laughable margin in the first half.
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sure, but that's like judging your moms lasagna before its put in the oven. Its going to taste like ish. Jimmy's unbaked bread tasted like ish 2 years in as well.



Yah i guess you are right. Maybe all teams should keep coaches that have done nothing well as far as coaching goes then maybe they would all win superbowls. Gah all we have to do is keep a coach for 3 or 4 years regardless of his performance and we will be successful. Why didnt we think of that before?


Flip side, maybe we should get rid of him just because his first 3 years haven't been good...Houston should have dumped Kubiak long ago....Mike Shanahan should have never been an HC again after his Raiders gig, Belichick too. He sucked in Cleveland. Let's not forget Jimmy Johnson, he had horrible teams to start.

Coaching changes have worked out soo well for Dallas the past 15 years...I say we keep on doing it. That seems completely logical.


Exactly my point. Crappy teams have coaching turnstiles. Its pretty clear historically.

Good teams hire a candidate they believe in and stick with him through the ups and downs.
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CowboysTilIDie


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
CowboysTilIDie wrote:
Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
CowboysTilIDie wrote:
I find it almost impossible to grade team preparation. There is no possible way we can distinguish poor prep from poor execution. I also find it hard to believe a guy as detail oriented and intelligent as Redball doesn't have his team prepared. And I guarantee if you went into the locker room the day before the game and asked them if they feel prepared, they'd say they do.

Now, his game plan and playcalling can certainly be called into question as it should. But, I don't feel there is any way we can accurately grade his preparation of the team.


Oh. No doubt our execution has killed us. But doesn't game plan tie into preparation?


Yea. Your right it does. For me personally, (and its obvious many will disagree) I believe his game plans are sound. Putting together a game plan is not the most difficult part of coaching. Its calling the right plays at the right time and then executing those plays that you have built your game plan around. I agree that his play calling is severely lacking at times, but I also say execution has just as much to do with it as his play calling.

And then, about making adjustments...is that not an extension of game planning? When they go in at halftime and make adjustments, are they not making another gameplan? I just think the gameplanning isn't as much the issue as it is playcalling and executing.


You and I really don't disagree. I have often been a champion (and lone voice) that our biggest issue is execution and not play-calling. That, in fact, our calls have been perfect for a given situation. I actually love some of the gusty calls: On-side Kicks. 3rd and short - you bomb it, etc.

But there is something to be said that we have not scored 10 points in the first yet all year. Only team to hold that distinction.

There is something to be said that our opponents have outscored us by a laughable margin in the first.


Yea. Can't argue with those numbers at all.
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Dboys88-82


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WizardHawk wrote:
Dboys88-82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sure, but that's like judging your moms lasagna before its put in the oven. Its going to taste like ish. Jimmy's unbaked bread tasted like ish 2 years in as well.



Yah i guess you are right. Maybe all teams should keep coaches that have done nothing well as far as coaching goes then maybe they would all win superbowls. Gah all we have to do is keep a coach for 3 or 4 years regardless of his performance and we will be successful. Why didnt we think of that before?


Flip side, maybe we should get rid of him just because his first 3 years haven't been good...Houston should have dumped Kubiak long ago....Mike Shanahan should have never been an HC again after his Raiders gig, Belichick too. He sucked in Cleveland. Let's not forget Jimmy Johnson, he had horrible teams to start.

Coaching changes have worked out soo well for Dallas the past 15 years...I say we keep on doing it. That seems completely logical.


It can definitely be argued both ways, but what i was getting at is we cant simply say lets stay with garrett because the only way we will win superbowls is if we pick a guy and stick with him. Id hate to see where the team would be if we stuck with wade. Just as every player should be evaluated all the coaches should be evaluated. You look at what they are doing and you look at who else is available. If there is a realistic upgrade you have to at least consider it. I just cant see many things that garrett has done well as far as coaching goes. Love the drafts we have had though.
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Dirk Gently


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hitstreak07 wrote:

Weren't Dez and Lee selected while Wade was still the head coach?


Yes, I'm just pointing out there's been more success in the first two rounds of the last three drafts, than in the 2006=2009 drafts combined. Not so much about Garrett as about a continuing trend of improved talent evaluation.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:


It can definitely be argued both ways, but what i was getting at is we cant simply say lets stay with garrett because the only way we will win superbowls is if we pick a guy and stick with him. Id hate to see where the team would be if we stuck with wade. Just as every player should be evaluated all the coaches should be evaluated. You look at what they are doing and you look at who else is available. If there is a realistic upgrade you have to at least consider it. I just cant see many things that garrett has done well as far as coaching goes. Love the drafts we have had though.


Which is valid. Options should always be considered. It's just insane the sheer amount of overreactions we see on this forum.

Realistically, who would you look at for Head Coach? And would you pull a Dolphins and interview people to see if you can nab someone better while keeping Redball?
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
So matts, at which aspect of "coaching" does Garrett excel? It's obvious not discipline, game management or play calling. What is it about Garrett's coaching that would make him a better coach than Sean Payton, Jon Gruden or even Andy Reid?


Player development, personnel, leadership, conditioning, mental toughness. That's why he needs an oc for the other things.

Auto correct, ftl..


Matts, I know this is tough for you but you also gotta keep realism involved in the discussion. It's kinda like when I posted that the Boys were $20M over the salary cap and you replied that ESPN was not reliable and the Boys are really 25M under the cap... only to have Stephen Jones confirm that the team is severely cap strapped the following day. Like your $25M under the cap projection, your assessment of Garrett is contrary to known fact. Specifically, the owner of the team wants the HC to call the plays. Over the past year, he has said it a dozen times. He doesn't want a "walk around" coach. Just last week he emphasized it again. That is reality.

See, you are having a problem realizing that what you think is best for the team (having a real OC) is different than the what the owner thinks is best for the team. Guess which one of you two will win that argument? The fact that you acknowledge that Garrett needs an OC to develop an offensive identity, game plan, and call plays because Garrett is severely lacking in those qualities underscores the point that Garrett is probably not the man for the job in Dallas. The owner wants a coach who can do it all and Garrett basically sucks from an X and O, game preparation, discipline, mental error perspective. That is the reality.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirk Gently wrote:
I think he's saying he wants Garrett to be the head coach and give up OC duties, which is a common desire. I believe Garrett himself has alluded to that being the plan with Callahan.


I believe you are wrong. In fact, I know for a fact you are wrong. Garrett does not want to give up play calling duties and Jerry doesn't want him to either. Just last week Jerry said that Jason didn't have too much on his plate and that he wants his HC to call the plays. Deal with it. That is reality.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry also listens (at times too much) to the council of others. There has been clear challenges this year on the offensive side of the ball. So while there has been a desire for Redball to be a jack-of-all-trades, one would logically assume that there would be a specific plan of attack to attempt to fix the solution. Why is the assumption that Redball will forever be play-caller have to be reality? It's speculation.

I don't think it's realistic, at all, to assume that after the off-season the Cowboys will sit around and go: "We need to improve on nothing. Hip, hip, Hooray!" So I don't really see the issue with hoping that we explore other alternatives.

I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't want Redball. Hell, if S.P. was a realistic acquisition (and I don't think he is - at all) I would be okay with that. But past that, I would be more comfortable giving Redball one more year to see what mettle he is really made of. I haven't seen a realistic alternative offered. I also question how many people would be willing to give a new coach the time to properly put in their system as opposed to expecting instant results with the team we have - which also isn't realistic, let alone fair.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Jerry also listens (at times too much) to the council of others. There has been clear challenges this year on the offensive side of the ball. So while there has been a desire for Redball to be a jack-of-all-trades, one would logically assume that there would be a specific plan of attack to attempt to fix the solution. Why is the assumption that Redball will forever be play-caller have to be reality? It's speculation.

I don't think it's realistic, at all, to assume that after the off-season the Cowboys will sit around and go: "We need to improve on nothing. Hip, hip, Hooray!" So I don't really see the issue with hoping that we explore other alternatives.

I don't begrudge anyone who doesn't want Redball. Hell, if S.P. was a realistic acquisition (and I don't think he is - at all) I would be okay with that. But past that, I would be more comfortable giving Redball one more year to see what mettle he is really made of. I haven't seen a realistic alternative offered. I also question how many people would be willing to give a new coach the time to properly put in their system as opposed to expecting instant results with the team we have - which also isn't realistic, let alone fair.


The problem is that Jerry made these comments just last week...

Quote:
At this particular juncture, Jason doesnít have too much on his plate.


Quote:
I think he certainly has the capacity to handle a lot of things. Iíve heard all of my life that if you really want a job done right, pick the busiest person you can find to go do it. It has just always worked that way. A small percentage of people do 85 percent of the work. Those are the kinds of things that Iíve heard. The facts are that I know that you can cover too much ground, and you let detail drop through the cracks when you cover a lot of ground. Advantages are also there.


Quote:
If a coach is successful on offense and as well as being the head coach, that gives him more influence, in my mind. And I agree with that. Joe Gibbs is the one who basically explained that to me a long time ago.


Quote:
I will say this, if you get it in the end zone and your head coach is your coordinator, thereís more of a feeling that he got it in the end zone and he helped us get it in the end zone like the quarterback did.


The owner has NO intention of bringing in an OC. He thinks the current situation is working. And, most importantly, Jason Garrett has gone on record saying that he will continue to call plays and that he does not want to relinquish play calling duties. Think about it from Garrett perspective... he knows his job is on the line. He's maybe got one more year to prove his worth. Why would he trust playcalling to somebody else??? If he's going to go down, he will want it to be 100% on him.

In a nutshell, the HC doesn't want to change his responsibilities and the owner doesn't want to either. Everybody needs to comes to grips with this. The probability of the Cowboys having a real OC who calls the plays is slim to none. It's based on wishful thinking and not the cold hard facts known to us. Now, I'm sorry if this is peeing in your cheerios but it's the truth. Sometimes, people gotta deal with the truth.

The whole purpose of this thread is based on a likely false assumption... that Garrett will hire Norv (or other) to be the OC and call the plays. Most people would agree that we'd love for this to happen. However, the real question should be whether we want Garrett to return in the future under the exact same role that he currently has.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it possible nothing changes? Sure. Is it possible something does change? Yes.

I don't eat Cheerios, so have at it. But again, I see a lot of 'raw, I hate Redball' posts without providing an logical alternative - and asserting whether or not proper time will be given for that new coach to make this his team.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Texas_OutLaw7 wrote:
Is it possible nothing changes? Sure. Is it possible something does change? Yes.

I don't eat Cheerios, so have at it. But again, I see a lot of 'raw, I hate Redball' posts without providing an logical alternative - and asserting whether or not proper time will be given for that new coach to make this his team.


First, anything is possible. But, when we're talking probabilities... it's much more probable that Garrett would return in the exact same capacity.

Second, I don't hate Redball. And, I'm saying the Cowboys should not make a change just to make a change... that if a change is made, it needs to be for a proven upgrade and not an unknown risk. But, the truth of the matter is that nobody can sit here and explain what JG does well from an Xs and Os coaching perspective. The people who want Garrett to return basically want him to be the GM. They don't trust his play calling, game preparation or game management. They say things like "player development" but blatantly ignore the lack of player develop on the OL and DL (where games are won). They say he's done a good job drafting players, but ignore the fact that the players he's drafted had injury histories which caused them to fall in the first place... and continue to have injuries at the NFL level. Hell, Matts even said this team is mentally tough. This is probably the mentally weakest team in the NFL... Pre-snap penalties on both sides of the ball, falling behind at home every game!!! Not to mention the mental blunders, turnovers and penalties. In 2.5 years as HC, Garrett has NOT been able to improve the most basic things like staying onsides, not jumping before the ball is hiked, and snapping the ball before the time runs out on the play clock. Truthfully, do I want another year of this crap??? Not really. But, again, I'm not advocating making a change just to make a change. This team NEEDS a HC that will install some real discipline and Garrett's teams have actually been less disciplined than the majority of Wade's teams.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
First, anything is possible. But, when we're talking probabilities... it's much more probable that Garrett would return in the exact same capacity.

Second, I don't hate Redball. And, I'm saying the Cowboys should not make a change just to make a change... that if a change is made, it needs to be for a proven upgrade and not an unknown risk. But, the truth of the matter is that nobody can sit here and explain what JG does well from an Xs and Os coaching perspective. The people who want Garrett to return basically want him to be the GM. They don't trust his play calling, game preparation or game management. They say things like "player development" but blatantly ignore the lack of player develop on the OL and DL (where games are won). They say he's done a good job drafting players, but ignore the fact that the players he's drafted had injury histories which caused them to fall in the first place... and continue to have injuries at the NFL level. Hell, Matts even said this team is mentally tough. This is probably the mentally weakest team in the NFL... Pre-snap penalties on both sides of the ball, falling behind at home every game!!! Not to mention the mental blunders, turnovers and penalties. In 2.5 years as HC, Garrett has NOT been able to improve the most basic things like staying onsides, not jumping before the ball is hiked, and snapping the ball before the time runs out on the play clock. Truthfully, do I want another year of this crap??? Not really. But, again, I'm not advocating making a change just to make a change. This team NEEDS a HC that will install some real discipline and Garrett's teams have actually been less disciplined than the majority of Wade's teams.


We are dealing with probabilities. Telling people to 'deal with it' ignores any room for discussion. You don't think the probabilities changes if friend Turner is looking for employment? If mentor Turner is looking for a place to ride off into a sun-set? That's the thing. There are a lot of outliers still to be addressed. Until the possibility is closed, I see no problem with hoping for improvement.

And forgive me, I wasn't saying you hate Redball (although, my post certainly came across that way), I was making sweeping accusations that this motif has been established to thumb ones chest for change and provide no viable alternative. While also sprinkling an unrealistic expectation for immediate success under this mystery new coach. That wasn't directed at you.

I really don't think Redball excels at X's and O's. I don't think he is brilliant like Martz, LeBeau and of those ilk. But I also don't think a head coach needs to excel in this aspect. Tomlin doesn't. Whisenhunt does. McCarthy didn't, and now does. Turner does. [I can also provide examples that show it doesn't hurt like BB, but the point is it isn't a necessity.]

And while his playcalling is better than people here like to give him credit for, no I don't want him to call plays. That doesn't mean I am demanding his head though. In terms of game preparation, it may be a simple case of over-planning. But yes, his game management needs work. However, people should realize that no one is perfect. Anyone who watch the SEC Championship game saw the best College Coach (Saban) horribly mis-manage a half-time situation. Redball has a lot to improve on (which makes sense given how young he is in terms of Head Coach) - but perfection is unrealistic.

I also don't think it's fair to say we haven't seen players develop. Costa has developed. Smith is developing. Hatcher has developed. Brent has developed. Liss has developed. By no means can we close up shop and go home and pat ourselves on the back, but to say our players aren't developing is disingenuous.

In terms of drafting injuries - there are certainly risks involved. But this is football, and you can't project injuries will always re-occur. No one can deny though, that when on the field we have had very productive players. The draft as a whole is a crap shot. We are at least drafting players who are buying into the system and getting the fan base excited. I would like to see them stay healthy, though. But no one can deny they are players.

I disagree with you about this team being mentally weak. Well, sort of. I think this is a very low-football IQ team - that's improving. But I think this team is extremely resilient. It get's punched in the mouth and get's back up. Every game day thread people on this forum have given up after a few mins in a game - only to be intensely into the game with only a few mins left because we have a chance to win. The fans are mentally weak, not these players. We won't win sexy. But we won't give up. I don't think that is something that should be discounted or dismissed.

The penalties are certainly frustrating. I think the most are the pre-snap penalties. But just this season we have seen improvement. Every home game we would have an absurd amount of false starts (and some blame needs to be placed at the merry-go-round of the OL - which isn't something that anyone could have accounted for) has drastically gone down. This team had (has) a lot of deficiencies. Which are slowly being addressed. But there is still more work to be done. A lot more work.

This team is a collection of fighters for the first time in a very, very, long time. I can't really think of a realistic alternative that would give this team instantaneous success.
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