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A case for REDBALL.... Long Post.
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Desperado82


Joined: 20 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
I have a question - do those attributes remind you of any other Dallas hc?


Sucky first year...lose in first round of the playoffs second year....third year win the first of two Lombardi Trophies.... Think
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CowboysTilIDie


Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
So matts, at which aspect of "coaching" does Garrett excel? It's obvious not discipline, game management or play calling. What is it about Garrett's coaching that would make him a better coach than Sean Payton, Jon Gruden or even Andy Reid?


Player development, personnel, leadership, conditioning, mental toughness. That's why he needs an oc for the other things.

Auto correct, ftl..


So, really, you are basically saying you want Garrett to be the GM and run the offseason conditioning program. Nothing about actual coaching.


Out of the five things Matts listed, only two of them would be the GM's responsibility. Leadership, conditioning, and mental toughness all stem from the head coach....
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desperado82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
I have a question - do those attributes remind you of any other Dallas hc?


Sucky first year...lose in first round of the playoffs second year....third year win the first of two Lombardi Trophies.... Think



Close, it was actually a guy who had one of the worst seasons in nfl history his first year, he had a sucky second year, lost in the first round his 3 year... then won back to back Lombardi's.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ironically I think Redball suffers from the same sin that the man in the Hat did. Loyalty to a fault.
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Dboys88-82


Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CowboysTilIDie wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
So matts, at which aspect of "coaching" does Garrett excel? It's obvious not discipline, game management or play calling. What is it about Garrett's coaching that would make him a better coach than Sean Payton, Jon Gruden or even Andy Reid?


Player development, personnel, leadership, conditioning, mental toughness. That's why he needs an oc for the other things.

Auto correct, ftl..


So, really, you are basically saying you want Garrett to be the GM and run the offseason conditioning program. Nothing about actual coaching.


Out of the five things Matts listed, only two of them would be the GM's responsibility. Leadership, conditioning, and mental toughness all stem from the head coach....


How about we come up with a list of things coaches should be graded on and grade garrett accordingly. Then we can truly see where he stands. Things like preparing his team each week, adjusting during the game, game management, leadership, inspiring his players, challenging plays, holding players accountable, play calling,---add or subtract from the list and then lets have everyone grade him on a scale of 1-10 and see what kind of grade cowboys fans on this forum would give him based on his coaching responsibilities period.
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Desperado82


Joined: 20 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Desperado82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
I have a question - do those attributes remind you of any other Dallas hc?


Sucky first year...lose in first round of the playoffs second year....third year win the first of two Lombardi Trophies.... Think



Close, it was actually a guy who had one of the worst seasons in nfl history his first year, he had a sucky second year, lost in the first round his 3 year... then won back to back Lombardi's.


*sigh*...math never was my strong suit Laughing
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, but that's like judging your moms lasagna before its put in the oven. Its going to taste like ish. Jimmy's unbaked bread tasted like ish 2 years in as well.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
CowboysTilIDie wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
So matts, at which aspect of "coaching" does Garrett excel? It's obvious not discipline, game management or play calling. What is it about Garrett's coaching that would make him a better coach than Sean Payton, Jon Gruden or even Andy Reid?


Player development, personnel, leadership, conditioning, mental toughness. That's why he needs an oc for the other things.

Auto correct, ftl..


So, really, you are basically saying you want Garrett to be the GM and run the offseason conditioning program. Nothing about actual coaching.


Out of the five things Matts listed, only two of them would be the GM's responsibility. Leadership, conditioning, and mental toughness all stem from the head coach....


How about we come up with a list of things coaches should be graded on and grade garrett accordingly. Then we can truly see where he stands. Things like preparing his team each week, adjusting during the game, game management, leadership, inspiring his players, challenging plays, holding players accountable, play calling,---add or subtract from the list and then lets have everyone grade him on a scale of 1-10 and see what kind of grade cowboys fans on this forum would give him based on his coaching responsibilities period.


Team Prep - Awful
Adjustments - Amazing
Management - Poor
Leadership - Excellent
Inspiring players - Difficult to grade, but this team won't give up. So I am going to go with Really Good
Challenging Plays - Mediocre - he is really conservative with them.
Accountability - Good (from what I read). He punishes in private.
Play Calling - Poor.
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Dboys88-82


Joined: 12 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Sure, but that's like judging your moms lasagna before its put in the oven. Its going to taste like ish. Jimmy's unbaked bread tasted like ish 2 years in as well.



Yah i guess you are right. Maybe all teams should keep coaches that have done nothing well as far as coaching goes then maybe they would all win superbowls. Gah all we have to do is keep a coach for 3 or 4 years regardless of his performance and we will be successful. Why didnt we think of that before?
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CowboysTilIDie


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it almost impossible to grade team preparation. There is no possible way we can distinguish poor prep from poor execution. I also find it hard to believe a guy as detail oriented and intelligent as Redball doesn't have his team prepared. And I guarantee if you went into the locker room the day before the game and asked them if they feel prepared, they'd say they do.

Now, his game plan and playcalling can certainly be called into question as it should. But, I don't feel there is any way we can accurately grade his preparation of the team.
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CowboysTilIDie wrote:
I find it almost impossible to grade team preparation. There is no possible way we can distinguish poor prep from poor execution. I also find it hard to believe a guy as detail oriented and intelligent as Redball doesn't have his team prepared. And I guarantee if you went into the locker room the day before the game and asked them if they feel prepared, they'd say they do.

Now, his game plan and playcalling can certainly be called into question as it should. But, I don't feel there is any way we can accurately grade his preparation of the team.


Oh. No doubt our execution has killed us. But doesn't game plan tie into preparation?
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Matts4313


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dboys88-82 wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Sure, but that's like judging your moms lasagna before its put in the oven. Its going to taste like ish. Jimmy's unbaked bread tasted like ish 2 years in as well.



Yah i guess you are right. Maybe all teams should keep coaches that have done nothing well as far as coaching goes then maybe they would all win superbowls. Gah all we have to do is keep a coach for 3 or 4 years regardless of his performance and we will be successful. Why didnt we think of that before?


Keeping coaches long enough to implement their plan/culture does sound like a difficult thought process for the instant results culture that is America.

Problem is, that's what all the good teams that are competing in superbowls do... so maybe we should give it a shot??
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hitstreak07


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dirk Gently wrote:
Matts4313 wrote:
Hit- I wasn't disagreeing about mid round picks. I was saying its crazy talk to say that we have sucked on those rounds when he has only been here 2 years and he has hit on a couple guys. Gotta give players and coaches more time to develop.


Much more importantly, look at the results of our six 1st and second rounders the last few years. Out of six picks we've gotten five players who are going to be good to great for the next several years-- at cornerstone positions, too.


Weren't Dez and Lee selected while Wade was still the head coach? Look at don't disagree with our 1st and 2nd or even 3rd Round picks under Garrett, I just feel its crucial to get value in the mid to late rounds, and its concerning that the last 2 years, we've gotten more value from our undrafted free agents.....I agree, players have to develop, but my point again, is that we've gotten more production from UNDRAFTED players the last 2 years than players drafted.....Does that not reflect on the ability of the coaches to evaluate talent? Now with all this being said, my biggest concerns with Garrett were in my first 3 points in his actual ability to coach this team, make smart decisions, manage a game, make your players accountable, etc...
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Texas_OutLaw7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

FWIW, this was EXACTLY the type of thread I had in mind when I kept alluding to the fact we should have a Redball thread. Potential for some real educational discussions.
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Kiei7


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
Secondly - do you remember how we choked away alto of games in the 4th last year? Do you think that Garrett has improved the conditioning and/or mentality of this team?


Instead of playing well for 3 quarters and falling apart in the 4th, we play terribly for 3 quarters and play one quarter of competent football. I'm not sure which one is better.
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mse326 wrote:
Fired-Up wrote:

Yes, but he won the super bowl.

Seriously I've never seen anyone as wrong as you all the time. The fact that you have knocked Skip Bayless off that perch has brought great shame upon this website.
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