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A case for REDBALL.... Long Post.
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DKDALfan


Joined: 18 Mar 2011
Posts: 2446
Location: Denmark
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

remember something with public disturbance at a hotel in beverly hills. also that he didnt accept the dress code put in by Garrett when he first started to be the HC.

Nothing big, or well maybe the last one since it's showing disrespect for your HC (even tho I agree that it was silly to have dress code).

I think that it had a lot to do with him feeling that his carreer was getting closer to its end way to early, no doubt that that will cause some frustrations.
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The_Slamman


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
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Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts, the RKG is not an identity... It's a draft philosophy. A team's identity is what it relies upon. its the foundation with which a team hopes to win the game. You want to know the team's identity? Here's the teams identity...

Fall behind early and rely on Romo magic to bring the team back into contention. Basically, the identity is for Romo to make a play out of nothing.

From a purely football coaching perspective, there's really nothing that Garrett excels at. The team is not fundamentally sound in any area. We don't block well. We don't tackle well. We commit way too many penalties. And we turn the ball over way too much. The only thing this team does really well is when Romo improvises when a play breaks down. Romo would be able to do that regardless of the HC.

Hell, I'm not even sold on the whole RKG thing. I'm looking more for the RKP... Right kinda player. You know... an OL who can sustain a block. Or, a DL who disrupt an entire offensive game plan. I want players who impose their will... not get imposed upon and then rely on the QB to pull a rabbit out of the hat.
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MaddHatter


Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting how different Jimmy and Jason are regarding players. Jimmy would put up with anything if you were good enough while Jason seems more interested in having a clean locker room vs. talent.
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Dboys88-82


Joined: 11 Jan 2011
Posts: 1761
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaddHatter wrote:
It's interesting how different Jimmy and Jason are regarding players. Jimmy would put up with anything if you were good enough while Jason seems more interested in having a clean locker room vs. talent.


Yeah Id have to say Jason needs to be a little more open minded. Players like Dez arent the kind that Garrett would draft even though a lot of Garrett supporters want to give him credit for drafting Dez. Nobody will ever convince me that anyone besides Jerry Jones draft Dez Bryant. There are actually many players in our Ring of Honor and great cowboys players that Garrett wouldnt draft or sign--Michael Irvin and Deion Sanders for instance.

I realize that having guys that are model citizens and all around guys like Jason Witten is great and they are good locker room guys, but at some point you also need guys that can go and make plays. Garrett has done a decent job in the early rounds so far of bringing in talent via the draft, but the later round hard working guys have yet to pay off. To me the later rounds are a good time to grab that troubled, yet talented player and see if he can turn into a big time play maker instead of drafting a career long role player.
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hitstreak07


Joined: 23 Apr 2011
Posts: 1454
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Matts, the RKG is not an identity... It's a draft philosophy. A team's identity is what it relies upon. its the foundation with which a team hopes to win the game. You want to know the team's identity? Here's the teams identity...

Fall behind early and rely on Romo magic to bring the team back into contention. Basically, the identity is for Romo to make a play out of nothing.

From a purely football coaching perspective, there's really nothing that Garrett excels at. The team is not fundamentally sound in any area. We don't block well. We don't tackle well. We commit way too many penalties. And we turn the ball over way too much. The only thing this team does really well is when Romo improvises when a play breaks down. Romo would be able to do that regardless of the HC.


Hell, I'm not even sold on the whole RKG thing. I'm looking more for the RKP... Right kinda player. You know... an OL who can sustain a block. Or, a DL who disrupt an entire offensive game plan. I want players who impose their will... not get imposed upon and then rely on the QB to pull a rabbit out of the hat.


I couldn't agree more. I don't mean to come across as drastic or even a pessimist, but I feel like this team is one of the most unprepared Cowboys teams I've ever watched. Look I'm as happy as anyone about the win last night (especially to sweep the Eagles), but the fact the game was even close is a reflection of this team's entire season, SUB-PAR. This team has gone into halftime in 8 of 12 games this season, losing. That's unacceptable, and does not reflect a winning mentality on this organization. This team has more than flaws, they literally can not get out of their own way. Whether it's coaching mistakes (that goes for Ryan and Joe too) or player mistakes, this team is so unorganized, and undisciplined, it sometimes becomes humorous. I also question Garrett's ability to evaluate talent as well. Outside of Carr (and the jury is still out on him in my opinion, as far as earning $50 million), I feel our signings in FA were very weak, and look I get we couldn't drop millions on FA especially with the NFL cap penalty we got hit with last minute, but to sign guys who were brought in as upgrades (Living, Bernadeuce, Poole) over who we had last year, and then try and sell it to your fans is laughable. How about rounds 3-7 of the draft the past 2 years? What value have we gotten from those picks? Murray? Agreed though he's missed 10 weeks (to lazy to look it up) or so in both his first 2 seasons? Look, I think Garrett's a great guy, and I think he can definitely coach in this league in some capacity, but I'm not buying that he's established an identity, in fact, I'd argue that we know less about this team 12 weeks into the season than we did before the season started. Head Coach/Coordinators do not win in this league (see Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, Romeo Crennel), and I'm afraid Garrett is following this very path.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
Posts: 39023
Location: Cowboys Forum ROH Class of 12
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Slamman wrote:
Matts, the RKG is not an identity... It's a draft philosophy. A team's identity is what it relies upon..


Its more than a draft philosophy, its a culture. Similar to the "lunch pail steelers". Its the character of the football team and can very much be the basis of your identity.

I think you are narrowing your scope of identity to what style of offense or defense you run. Thats fine, its all semantics as I am sure you understand my point. When I say identity, I refer to what the collection of players most resembles.

For example, I would say that Bill B. teams are often smart and well prepared. That, to me, is their identity. Its the type of player that he usually will add to his squad.

The raiders, on the other hand I would say are extremely athletic. Their identity has historically been big, strong fast guys.


Maybe I am not using the right word here, but identity is close enough to make the point..
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If we're able to go 11-5 or better, then Garrett and his staff deserve to be coaches of the damned decade.
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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hitstreak07 wrote:
I feel like this team is one of the most unprepared Cowboys teams I've ever watched.


First - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dallas_Cowboys_season

It wasnt that long ago Laughing

hitstreak07 wrote:
Look I'm as happy as anyone about the win last night (especially to sweep the Eagles), but the fact the game was even close is a reflection of this team's entire season, SUB-PAR.


We were ahead by 11 with a minute left to go. In the NFL, thats a pretty solid lead.


hitstreak07 wrote:
I feel our signings in FA were very weak, and look I get we couldn't drop millions on FA especially with the NFL cap penalty we got hit with last minute



And the 30 million in dead cap from Roy Williams, L davis, Colombo, Barber, etc etc etc.... Be fair here, that is nearly 25% of our cap in dead money from signings before he was the head coach...

hitstreak07 wrote:
How about rounds 3-7 of the draft the past 2 years? What value have we gotten from those picks?


If your last point was unfair, this drives your argument into complete and total ridiculousness. Go through the draft and count up how many 3-7th rounders are significant contributors in the NFL right now. I bet its less than 5%. So far, Murray and Harris have both been contributors for us.

hitstreak07 wrote:
Head Coach/Coordinators do not win in this league (see Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, Romeo Crennel), and I'm afraid Garrett is following this very path.


I agree with this. The men who can do it are exceedingly rare.
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plan9misfit wrote:

If we're able to go 11-5 or better, then Garrett and his staff deserve to be coaches of the damned decade.
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cromagnum


Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 551
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
mco65 wrote:
I am not sure that RKG is an identity as much as it is a philosophy.. I mean Landry was a RKG type of coach. He simply didn't tolerate guys who were not the 'his kind of guys'. But at the same time, Landry had a system. A system that players executed flawlessly.. they didn't commit dozens of penalties game after game. They didn't shoot them selves in the foot or do STUPID things game after game... They were smart, hard workers or they were gone.

Not saying Garrett is not Landryesq at times but he is not full time yet and neither is this team.



I agree - and that is actually the whole point of this. I know Landrys situation is different, but he went 13-38 in his first 4 years.. It wasnt until 6 that he had a winning record.. at year >10< he was 1-4 in the playoffs.


It took Landry 12 years to build the team/roster/culture that could win a superbowl. 12 YEARS!!!!!!!


Jimmy did it much faster... Of course with the caveat that the situations were vastly different. He did it in 4 years. But he also had the privilege of walking on to a team that had a HOF WR, would draft a HOF QB a couple weeks later and get a HOF RB the following year.


I post all that just to remind you - Garret is on year 2.


Matts you can't compare the Landry era to today's game..Coaches were given more time back then and Landry was taking over a expansion team with zero expectations..Big difference to Garret who took over a team who were one of the favorites to go to the superbowl but underachieved big time..Today coaches usually have 4 years to show some improvement..It's just the way it is..

Now when i watch the Cowboys under Garrett i see a team that does fight for there coach but still makes to many mistakes and is still one of the most penalized teams in the NFL..Garrett has also shown to be a bad game manager especially at the end of games..Baltimore and Arizona for example..The only difference i see with Garrett then with Wade Phillips is the Cowboys don't quit under Garrett like they did for Phillips..Other then that its the same old undisciplined team who find more times then not ways to lose then win..
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The_Slamman


Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 13730
Location: Las Vegas, NV
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
The_Slamman wrote:
Matts, the RKG is not an identity... It's a draft philosophy. A team's identity is what it relies upon..


Its more than a draft philosophy, its a culture. Similar to the "lunch pail steelers". Its the character of the football team and can very much be the basis of your identity.

I think you are narrowing your scope of identity to what style of offense or defense you run. Thats fine, its all semantics as I am sure you understand my point. When I say identity, I refer to what the collection of players most resembles.

For example, I would say that Bill B. teams are often smart and well prepared. That, to me, is their identity. Its the type of player that he usually will add to his squad.

The raiders, on the other hand I would say are extremely athletic. Their identity has historically been big, strong fast guys.


Maybe I am not using the right word here, but identity is close enough to make the point..


So, what you are really talking about is Garrett changing the culture at valley ranch and not the team's identity. IMO, to date, Garrett has failed to change the culture and the team still lacks an identity. Culturally, there is still little to no player accountability on the field. Doug free can give sacks and penalties without any fear of consequences. Garrett actually said he never considered benching him. The same applies to the entire OL and DL.

In terms of team identity, honestly, do you have more confidence in Romo or Garrett to call plays? I'd put my trust in Romo every day. Hell if romo called plays on a full time basis we'd probably Lu score more points than an MLB team in the first have of games.
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Northland wrote:
If mediocrity is your SuperBowl then Garrett is your Lombardi.


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Matts4313


Joined: 08 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

before I respond, I want to clarify 2 things:

You feel the culture is the same as under Phillips?
Are you a proponent of firing jg?
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plan9misfit wrote:

If we're able to go 11-5 or better, then Garrett and his staff deserve to be coaches of the damned decade.
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hitstreak07


Joined: 23 Apr 2011
Posts: 1454
Location: Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
hitstreak07 wrote:
I feel like this team is one of the most unprepared Cowboys teams I've ever watched.


First - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Dallas_Cowboys_season

It wasnt that long ago Laughing

hitstreak07 wrote:
Look I'm as happy as anyone about the win last night (especially to sweep the Eagles), but the fact the game was even close is a reflection of this team's entire season, SUB-PAR.


We were ahead by 11 with a minute left to go. In the NFL, thats a pretty solid lead.


hitstreak07 wrote:
I feel our signings in FA were very weak, and look I get we couldn't drop millions on FA especially with the NFL cap penalty we got hit with last minute



And the 30 million in dead cap from Roy Williams, L davis, Colombo, Barber, etc etc etc.... Be fair here, that is nearly 25% of our cap in dead money from signings before he was the head coach...

hitstreak07 wrote:
How about rounds 3-7 of the draft the past 2 years? What value have we gotten from those picks?


If your last point was unfair, this drives your argument into complete and total ridiculousness. Go through the draft and count up how many 3-7th rounders are significant contributors in the NFL right now. I bet its less than 5%. So far, Murray and Harris have both been contributors for us.

hitstreak07 wrote:
Head Coach/Coordinators do not win in this league (see Norv Turner, Wade Phillips, Romeo Crennel), and I'm afraid Garrett is following this very path.


I agree with this. The men who can do it are exceedingly rare.


1) I said ONE of the most unprepared teams I've ever seen, not necessarily THE, though I think its arguable.

2) We were losing in the 4th QTR.....This game should've been over in the 1st half as bad as the Eagles are

3) I stated that we couldn't drop millions. But to sign players who are not slightly talented (one of whom was cut in the preseason) is not reasonable

4) I don't think its ridiculous, I think it's crucial to a team's success to be able to bring in players in later rounds that can contribute. I said I agreed with Murray, and I will say that Harris has been solid as well, but this team has a history of disappointment drafting in later rounds, and I'm not seeing where that's in line to change. In fact, I would argue that we've had more success from undrafted players in the last 2 years than from rounds 4-7. 2011: Orie Lemon, Kowalski, Dan Bailey, Phillip Tanner, Alex Albright (undrafted)... Arkin, Josh Thomas, Harris, Chapas, Nagy (drafted) 2012: Lance Dunbar, Cole Beasley (undrafted)....Wilbur, Johnson, Coale, Hannah, Mcsurdy (drafted). How is it acceptable to get more production of undrafteds then guys in rounds 4-7 in the last 2 years?

5) I actually agree with a lot of your posts Matts, glad you agreed with at least one of these! haha
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Dboys88-82


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garrett has brought in some players that hold themselves accountable.
Garrett himself does absolutely nothing himself to hold them accountable.

Our identity as a football team: I dont see it. We do work harder than before, and I can see a little less quit in the team. BUT...what is the one single thing we can lean on in the final quarter of a playoff game?

--Run the ball? HA! Behind this o line? Murray is good but..
--Pass the ball? Maybe. Only because Romo can run around and help out this terrible o line. I will not put total trust in romo yet however either. He has burned and rebuilt and burned and rebuilt so many bridges with me.

--Defense?--Not anymore. Not with all the injuries. Was there a time earlier this season where i thought maybe? yes, but it was still only maybe. I wasnt totally convinced yet. I wont be until we get some superstar talent on that d line. This is Rob Ryans group anyways and Garrett stays out of it.

Well there you have it. Still no identity. Poor gameplanning, play calling, game management. My biggest pet peave with garret--he hates to throw the red flag. Rob ryan is always sprinting his huge body down the sidelines jumpin up and down tryin to get him to throw the darn thing. He fails in almost every aspect of coaching. The good drafts might be him, or it might be our scouts. Who really knows. Im not about to give him full credit though. We definitely arent seeing an increase in wins and even though the players are playing harder I cant really say its better coaching than Wade Phillips. Garrett has players that hold themselves accountable something that wade didnt. NO im not standing up for wade. He sucks as a head coach, but so does Garrett.
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The_Slamman


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
before I respond, I want to clarify 2 things:

You feel the culture is the same as under Phillips?
Are you a proponent of firing jg?


I'm not a proponent of firing Garrett just to fire him. But I don't think he excels at any aspect of coaching. For example, If you tell me right now Garrett will return next year, I CANNOT say that the team will good at "fill in the blank here" because of Garrett's coaching. So, if a coach who will give this team a true identity becomes available and is interested, I'd look to making a change.

In terms of the culture being the same as with Phillips, I'd have to say that it depends on the year with Phillips. The 2007 team had an identity and a positive culture. The 2010 team completely quit.

This is what I will say, Garrett babies Doug Free the same way wade Phillips treated players with kid gloves. The penalties and mental mistakes are about the same if not worse under Garrett. I don't see a marked improvement in player accountability, penalties and mental errors. And, I think Garrett's game planning and preparation is worse than Phillips. You look at the end on 2009 under Phillips where the team had shutouts and held the saints in check... Garrett has never had that type of big game preparation.
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matt79511


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Marc Colombo was the very definition of RKG, he was just decrepit at that point.
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WizardHawk


Joined: 31 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: A case for REDBALL.... Long Post. Reply with quote

Matts4313 wrote:
TLDR version: Garrett has planted the seeds of our new identity. He deserves at least one more year to see the fruits of his labor.


This is all I see and all I really care about. And, I'd even go so far as saying Garrett needs 2 more years to fix this team. I think the past 15 years back this up.
There is just no way, imo, that a team can expect to step forward when they change coaches/philosophy every 3 years. There has to be some form of stability. I believe Garrett can/has brought that and needs more time.

btw, good post Matts
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