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Trindon Holiday

 
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GridironGangsta


Joined: 02 Dec 2012
Posts: 3
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Trindon Holiday Reply with quote

Why in the world did the Houston Texans cut Trindon Holiday? He had 3 kick returns for TDs in the preseason, now he's owning it up with the Broncos, 2 already for touchdowns and a few more big returns. That guy was a steal for Denver, could come back to haunt the Texans in the playoffs...
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EliteTexan80


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Joined: 30 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:13 am    Post subject: Re: Trindon Holiday Reply with quote

GridironGangsta wrote:
Why in the world did the Houston Texans cut Trindon Holiday? He had 3 kick returns for TDs in the preseason, now he's owning it up with the Broncos, 2 already for touchdowns and a few more big returns. That guy was a steal for Denver, could come back to haunt the Texans in the playoffs...


Simply put, guy was a liability for the Texans as a return guy. We saw the potential in the preseason, but it wasn't showing in the regular season, as he was barely breaking past the 20 on kick returns, and routinely fielded punts he had no business fielding. You add to that the need for an ILB following Brian Cushing's ACL injury, and you had the Texans in a position to find a roster spot, and Trindon being the first guy up to be cut.

Glad he's doing well, but the Texans weren't in a position to keep him, given his lack of production and needs on defense.
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treece300e


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 427
Location: Nampa, ID
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Trindon Holiday Reply with quote

GridironGangsta wrote:
Why in the world did the Houston Texans cut Trindon Holiday? He had 3 kick returns for TDs in the preseason, now he's owning it up with the Broncos, 2 already for touchdowns and a few more big returns. That guy was a steal for Denver, could come back to haunt the Texans in the playoffs...


As ET80 stated, much of this was to bring in another LB to fill the void left by Cushing. Trindon was taking a lot of risks and really trying to prove he deserved a roster spot, and in doing so, sometimes put the team in bad positions. Keshawn Martin didn't do much the first few games, but has made a difference in the return game the past few weeks.

Holliday has made a difference on a team that can afford to have a return specialist, we simply didn't have the availability to keep him due to injuries. And while he has had some return TDs, he wasn't going to contribute in the receiving game like Keshawn does. It was a dagger to see TDs in consecutive weeks after the release, though.

Aside from the TD, the stats aren't dramatically in favor of Holliday:
Holiday - http://www.nfl.com/player/trindonholliday/497218/careerstats
Martin - http://www.nfl.com/player/keshawnmartin/2532900/careerstats
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Apollo Stallion


Joined: 06 Feb 2008
Posts: 5529
Location: Battle Red State
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This "debate" continues to befuddle me as people see 2 highlights on Sportscenter and think that's what wins football games instead of recognizing that the real difference between the Texans and say the Chiefs is about 50 yards per game on offense and 30 yards per game on defense in addition to turnovers, conversions, and red zone play. The difference between the middle 2/3s of teams when it comes to returns is about 10 yards of field position per game which is completely nullified with even 1 penalty per game on a return and I cannot remember a game going by where their wasn't at least one. There is ZERO, NONE, ZIP correlation between kick returns and ANYTHING in team records unless you are a Bills, Browns, Eagles, Jets fan this year and excited by the one area of the game where you don't suck. You might as well examine average hang time on kicks or coin flip wins and try to predict a teams record. Sure on a game by game basis a key return can make a difference as it almost did for us in getting a bad Jets teams closer than they should have been, but ultimately it's the hundreds of plays per game or THOUSANDS of plays over the course of a season that make a difference, not 2 fluky kick returns per season that are almost always counter balanced by several more disasterous decisions and fumbles by returners who put their glory over the team because they only get a few shots at it. Kyle Williams and Jacoby Jones both COST their teams Super Bowl shots last year which is one more player than I can name in the past decade who played any role in getting their team to a Super Bowl with kick returns. Remind me how many playoff games the all-time leader in kickoff return tds has played in (Josh Cribbs = 0)?

As for Holliday, the kickoff return against the Bengals was impressive and probably helped them win the game but the punt return TD against the Panthers impacted nothing but an extra TD to a blowout 36-14 win against a 3 win team. Of course, if you actually watched that play it says everything about why that guy will ultimately be a liability as he started celebrating before he crossed the end zone and lost the ball for what should have been a touchback. Holliday also lost a fumble in his first game as a Bronco and almost lost the game for them. Take away the 1 punt return and he's only at 9 yards per punt return while Martin is at 14 and aside from the 105 yard kickoff return, Holliday is at 24 yards per kickoff return as a Bronco (up from 19 as a Texan) while Martin is at 24 yards since taking behind an ever further diminished special teams blocking group that Holliday could only manage 19 yards behind. Remember, that 19 yard average on kickoffs is from where he caught the ball which with his penchant for taking balls out from 5-7 yards deep means way too many times where we started drives inside our own 15.

Keeping a 6th receiver for a few yards of possession that is usually countered by the inevitable penalties on returns is simply a poor allocation of resources and our LBs and corners dropping like flies show why (especially when we lost multiples in single games). I was much more concerned about Chris Johnson beating us last week or Welker this week than counting on some fluke return to win it for us and having that roster spot active for a Barrett Ruud or Brandon Harris to impact dozens of plays per game far outweighs the return game, especially considering it has been vastly improved with Martin back there and I'm much less concerned about him pulling a Jacoby-esque move to LOSE a game for us.

The other fact is that in a close playoff game, you will likely see Daniel Manning back there returning kickoffs anyway.
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Texansfan713


Joined: 24 Dec 2009
Posts: 30076
Location: Houston
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A stat Adam Wexler tweeted this morning:

Martin vs Holliday

Quote:
Adam Wexler ‏@awexler

Just talked about #Texans sp. teams. Martin v Holliday (w/ HOU). KR avg: 24.1-19.4. PR avg: 14.3-9.2. Martin now 4th in NFL in PR avg.


Quote:
Adam Wexler ‏@awexler

@nathanredmon Holliday w/ DEN as KR: 13.0 (Martin 14.3). The diff is on KR. Holliday at 37.4 (best in NFL). Den was awful b4 Holliday


Losing Holliday isn't as bad as it seems, and I wish him well with the Broncos, but Martin brings more things to the table since he can actually contribute as a WR.
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amazingandre


Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 14094
Location: Elkhorn, WI
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apollo Stallion wrote:
This "debate" continues to befuddle me as people see 2 highlights on Sportscenter and think that's what wins football games instead of recognizing that the real difference between the Texans and say the Chiefs is about 50 yards per game on offense and 30 yards per game on defense in addition to turnovers, conversions, and red zone play. The difference between the middle 2/3s of teams when it comes to returns is about 10 yards of field position per game which is completely nullified with even 1 penalty per game on a return and I cannot remember a game going by where their wasn't at least one. There is ZERO, NONE, ZIP correlation between kick returns and ANYTHING in team records unless you are a Bills, Browns, Eagles, Jets fan this year and excited by the one area of the game where you don't suck. You might as well examine average hang time on kicks or coin flip wins and try to predict a teams record. Sure on a game by game basis a key return can make a difference as it almost did for us in getting a bad Jets teams closer than they should have been, but ultimately it's the hundreds of plays per game or THOUSANDS of plays over the course of a season that make a difference, not 2 fluky kick returns per season that are almost always counter balanced by several more disasterous decisions and fumbles by returners who put their glory over the team because they only get a few shots at it. Kyle Williams and Jacoby Jones both COST their teams Super Bowl shots last year which is one more player than I can name in the past decade who played any role in getting their team to a Super Bowl with kick returns. Remind me how many playoff games the all-time leader in kickoff return tds has played in (Josh Cribbs = 0)?

As for Holliday, the kickoff return against the Bengals was impressive and probably helped them win the game but the punt return TD against the Panthers impacted nothing but an extra TD to a blowout 36-14 win against a 3 win team. Of course, if you actually watched that play it says everything about why that guy will ultimately be a liability as he started celebrating before he crossed the end zone and lost the ball for what should have been a touchback. Holliday also lost a fumble in his first game as a Bronco and almost lost the game for them. Take away the 1 punt return and he's only at 9 yards per punt return while Martin is at 14 and aside from the 105 yard kickoff return, Holliday is at 24 yards per kickoff return as a Bronco (up from 19 as a Texan) while Martin is at 24 yards since taking behind an ever further diminished special teams blocking group that Holliday could only manage 19 yards behind. Remember, that 19 yard average on kickoffs is from where he caught the ball which with his penchant for taking balls out from 5-7 yards deep means way too many times where we started drives inside our own 15.

Keeping a 6th receiver for a few yards of possession that is usually countered by the inevitable penalties on returns is simply a poor allocation of resources and our LBs and corners dropping like flies show why (especially when we lost multiples in single games). I was much more concerned about Chris Johnson beating us last week or Welker this week than counting on some fluke return to win it for us and having that roster spot active for a Barrett Ruud or Brandon Harris to impact dozens of plays per game far outweighs the return game, especially considering it has been vastly improved with Martin back there and I'm much less concerned about him pulling a Jacoby-esque move to LOSE a game for us.

The other fact is that in a close playoff game, you will likely see Daniel Manning back there returning kickoffs anyway.


Completely disagree with this. One, Martin is doing great for us and 2, why would Wade give up his play making safety for kr, pr duties and risk his health with something, even you say, is pretty pointless. Keep it the way it is, we're 11-1 with Martin deep and it seems like he is finally starting to get the hang of the speed and angles. He has been close to breaking them the last few weeks.
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