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tonyto3690


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
This is one of those instances where I think Brady will have his finger on the scale. He already witnessed the fallout from when the team played hardball with Deion Branch [granted, they had every reason to do so], but at his age, Brady will not want a repeat of what he had to go through in 2006.


Gronkowski, Hernandez, Edelman, Lloyd, Ridley, Vereen are all better players than any skill position players on that team. Different situation.

I'm sure Brady wants him back and I'm sure Brady will say he wants him back. But Welker given his style of play isn't a great long term investment. That being said, he's productive, gets the job done, is a blue collar Patriots player, and is the kind of character you want on your team. It's likely the Patriots sign him some way some how.

Edelman has looked really good when healthy this year. Our offense with Lloyd/Edelman on the outside with Gronk/Heranndez inside, and Ridley/Vereen in the backfield would still be an elite offense with Brady piloting it. We don't need Welker. We 100% need defensive improvements.
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Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Donut wrote:
I'd really love to get Amendola in NE. WR is a need not as big as NBT suggests and wouldn't use a high pick on one unless someone fell.
I did too, but he's just been too unreliable. He missed all but one game last season, and is doubtful for this weekend, making this new heel injury the second injury that will have caused him to miss time this season.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonyto3690 wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
This is one of those instances where I think Brady will have his finger on the scale. He already witnessed the fallout from when the team played hardball with Deion Branch [granted, they had every reason to do so], but at his age, Brady will not want a repeat of what he had to go through in 2006.


Gronkowski, Hernandez, Edelman, Lloyd, Ridley, Vereen are all better players than any skill position players on that team. Different situation.
Nevertheless, Welker has been his favorite target for five seasons now. Taking that away from a QB is a risky proposition, even if he is Tom Brady.
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Sciz


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
Nevertheless, Welker has been his favorite target for five seasons now. Taking that away from a QB is a risky proposition, even if he is Tom Brady.
Well Welker is going to be 32 when next season starts, so I think it's safe to say it won't be too long before Brady is going to have to find a new favorite target whether Welker is here or not.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sciz wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Nevertheless, Welker has been his favorite target for five seasons now. Taking that away from a QB is a risky proposition, even if he is Tom Brady.
Well Welker is going to be 32 when next season starts, so I think it's safe to say it won't be too long before Brady is going to have to find a new favorite target whether Welker is here or not.
Brady is going to be 36. Odds of Welker's usefulness dwindling before Brady's aren't all that great, considering he's not a speed player.

Bottom line is that Welker's is a presence that needs to be supplemented, not replaced.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know deep down, tb wishes deion in 06 and randy in 2010 had just gotten paid. if they pull the same with wes, which is 90000% likely, doubt he likes it, though i doubt he complains either.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
you know deep down, tb wishes deion in 06 and randy in 2010 had just gotten paid. if they pull the same with wes, which is 90000% likely, doubt he likes it, though i doubt he complains either.
I think it's pretty clear from the past 3 years that Moss misses Brady a hell of a lot more than Brady misses Moss.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
tonyto3690 wrote:
Yeah, I don't really understand the love for Avril. He never really stood out to me as great as everyone says.

Jennings I don't have any interest in because of money. He's going to leave the Packers because the guy (deservedly) wants to be paid. While he's obviously better than Edelman, with Brady, Gronk, Hernandez, and our running game, we don't need to pay for a big time WR, which is why I'm okay with Welker walking this offseason.


Yeah, I'm OK with Welker walking too but I'm not OK going with Lloyd, Edleman and a bunch of unknowns/mediocrity which is the big problem.

Then 2013 WR situation is probably one of the 2 or 3 most interesting decisions Belichick has faced in his 12+ years here. I think they'll bring Welker back, if only because the alternatives are both risky and unpalatable. Given the lack of extra draft picks, I don't necessarily want a high draft pick invested in WR unless the D is reloaded with quality free agents.

Not sure what realistic alternatives are at WR beyond the probably too-pricey and the definitely too-crappy.

There are a few veteran options I expect to become available who aren't slated to become UFAs, but will potentially/likely be on the chopping block:

Santana Moss
Santonio Holmes
Jerricho Cotchery
Jason Avant
Michael Jenkins

Meh. None of them are mch better than Lloyd. We need talent.

Quote:
The most intriguing one to me is Kenny Britt. All-world talent, but has had his career derailed by injuries and suspensions, and he's now clearly fallen behind Nate Washington and Kendall Wright on the Titans' depth chart. Could be another one of those reclamation projects Belichick loves to roll the dice on. Plus, he's from Rutgers and we know how BB feels about Rutgers alums.


Oo oo oo oo oo oo Very Happy I'd dig it.

What we do with wide out will greatly depend on what happens in free agency with the defense. Assuming we can plug holes, though - I think we should go for Williams or Patterson at 32. Patterson would be downright terrifying in this offense with the ball in his hands, while Williams could get deep at will. Very Happy
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Last edited by NextBigThing on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:26 am; edited 1 time in total
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
you know deep down, tb wishes deion in 06 and randy in 2010 had just gotten paid. if they pull the same with wes, which is 90000% likely, doubt he likes it, though i doubt he complains either.
I think it's pretty clear from the past 3 years that Moss misses Brady a hell of a lot more than Brady misses Moss.


Oh, I don't know. For example...if we have Randy Moss on our team, I - being objective, reasonable, and logical- highly, HIGHLY doubt we have the playoff losses to the Jets in 2010 or the Giants last season.

The idea of Moss, Welker, Branch/Lloyd, and Gronandez? Too balanced. The receivers could not be defended. Even Moss as he is right now. Brady could probably and another 20% onto his 2011 number if we had Moss on the team instead of Chad Johnson, just due to the effect he would have had on the offense.

Its true. I'm not really disagreeing with that you said. But, in 2009 and early 2010 with Moss, not having a true # 2 wide out hurt him a bit; he saw double and triple teams constantly. It helped Wes have a HUGE 2009, and helped Hernandez erupt early in 2010. But, we were another true wide out away from being unstoppable again.

After the playoff loss to the Jets game, where they were begging us to go deep, and we have BRANDON TATE unable to separate down field, you just know Brady had to wonder "Why did it take trading Randy Moss to get Belichick to trade for Branch? Was keeping Randy and trading for Branch so much to ask for?".

Moss Welker Branch Gronkowski Herhandez. What an incredible group that would have been.

Frankly, we are still in the same boat. Defenses which demand we go deep...will give us fits. Fits we wouldn't have if we still had Moss.
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Last edited by NextBigThing on Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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24isthelaw


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great call on Kevin Williams, Sciz. If he wants to leave Minny, he'd be a great fit.

The two names on this list that really intrigue me are Byrd and Melton. Melton is a beast at doing the one thing we desperately need. He does play on a stacked line, but the talent is evident when the Bears play. Byrd is a very good FS, and he'd give us a lot of flexibility with McCourty, because he has serious cover skills.

Avril and Idonije, on the other hand, are players who I wonder about. Avril hasn't really played up to his physical potential his entire career, from college to the NFL, which makes me wary of overpaying. Idonije is a solid player, and would be a good DT/DE, but I'm not sure I see enough impact to justify paying him the salary his past production commands. I think he's an example of a guy who benefits from playing with very good players. Goldson I'm convinced is bad value. I mean, look at how Donte Whitner magically "got better" when he signed with the 49ers. The 49ers front is incredible and investing in someone who plays behind that is a big gamble. I also wouldn't do Jennings. He's a luxury so I'd rather not do it.

The difficult option to decide on is Ed Reed. The risks are obvious, and he's getting worse by the year. But BB's schemes have worked the best with guys like him (maybe not his caliber) who are just super reactive players. I can see his presence helping the secondary as a whole too, being a vet who's going to get a shot at the HOF.
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
you know deep down, tb wishes deion in 06 and randy in 2010 had just gotten paid. if they pull the same with wes, which is 90000% likely, doubt he likes it, though i doubt he complains either.
I think it's pretty clear from the past 3 years that Moss misses Brady a hell of a lot more than Brady misses Moss.


Oh, I don't know. For example...if we have Randy Moss on our team, I - being objective, reasonable, and logical- highly, HIGHLY doubt we have the playoff losses to the Jets in 2010 or the Giants last season.

The idea of Moss, Welker, Branch/Lloyd, and Gronandez? Too balanced. The receivers could not be defended. Even Moss as he is right now. Brady could probably and another 20% onto his 2011 number if we had Moss on the team instead of Chad Johnson, just due to the effect he would have had on the offense.

Its true. I'm not really disagreeing with that you said. But, in 2009 and early 2010 with Moss, not having a true # 2 wide out hurt him a bit; he saw double and triple teams constantly. It helped Wes have a HUGE 2009, and helped Hernandez erupt early in 2010. But, we were another true wide out away from being unstoppable again.

After the playoff loss to the Jets game, where they were begging us to go deep, and we have BRANDON TATE unable to separate down field, you just know Brady had to wonder "Why did it take trading Randy Moss to get Belichick to trade for Branch? Was keeping Randy and trading for Branch so much to ask for?".

Moss Welker Branch Gronkowski Herhandez. What an incredible group that would have been.

Frankly, we are still in the same boat. Defenses which demand we go deep...will give us fits. Fits we wouldn't have if we still had Moss.


You do realize how the Jets shut us down in that playoff game right?

It was man coverage on the outside WRs and playing zone in the middle and flooding it with the two safeties.

Moss wouldn't have done jack squat. Revis would have shut him down.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
you know deep down, tb wishes deion in 06 and randy in 2010 had just gotten paid. if they pull the same with wes, which is 90000% likely, doubt he likes it, though i doubt he complains either.
I think it's pretty clear from the past 3 years that Moss misses Brady a hell of a lot more than Brady misses Moss.


Oh, I don't know. For example...if we have Randy Moss on our team, I - being objective, reasonable, and logical- highly, HIGHLY doubt we have the playoff losses to the Jets in 2010 or the Giants last season.

The idea of Moss, Welker, Branch/Lloyd, and Gronandez? Too balanced. The receivers could not be defended. Even Moss as he is right now. Brady could probably and another 20% onto his 2011 number if we had Moss on the team instead of Chad Johnson, just due to the effect he would have had on the offense.

Its true. I'm not really disagreeing with that you said. But, in 2009 and early 2010 with Moss, not having a true # 2 wide out hurt him a bit; he saw double and triple teams constantly. It helped Wes have a HUGE 2009, and helped Hernandez erupt early in 2010. But, we were another true wide out away from being unstoppable again.

After the playoff loss to the Jets game, where they were begging us to go deep, and we have BRANDON TATE unable to separate down field, you just know Brady had to wonder "Why did it take trading Randy Moss to get Belichick to trade for Branch? Was keeping Randy and trading for Branch so much to ask for?".

Moss Welker Branch Gronkowski Herhandez. What an incredible group that would have been.

Frankly, we are still in the same boat. Defenses which demand we go deep...will give us fits. Fits we wouldn't have if we still had Moss.


They had those problems early in 2010.

Maybe if Moss wasn't a turd who whined about his contract, he'd still be in Foxboro and the Pats would have another Lombardi or two. But at the end of the day, he turned into the high-maintenance baby he's been for much of his career.

The only person you should blame for Randy Moss not being with the Patriots is Randy Moss for being exactly who Randy Moss has always been.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NinjaZX6R wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
you know deep down, tb wishes deion in 06 and randy in 2010 had just gotten paid. if they pull the same with wes, which is 90000% likely, doubt he likes it, though i doubt he complains either.
I think it's pretty clear from the past 3 years that Moss misses Brady a hell of a lot more than Brady misses Moss.


Oh, I don't know. For example...if we have Randy Moss on our team, I - being objective, reasonable, and logical- highly, HIGHLY doubt we have the playoff losses to the Jets in 2010 or the Giants last season.

The idea of Moss, Welker, Branch/Lloyd, and Gronandez? Too balanced. The receivers could not be defended. Even Moss as he is right now. Brady could probably and another 20% onto his 2011 number if we had Moss on the team instead of Chad Johnson, just due to the effect he would have had on the offense.

Its true. I'm not really disagreeing with that you said. But, in 2009 and early 2010 with Moss, not having a true # 2 wide out hurt him a bit; he saw double and triple teams constantly. It helped Wes have a HUGE 2009, and helped Hernandez erupt early in 2010. But, we were another true wide out away from being unstoppable again.

After the playoff loss to the Jets game, where they were begging us to go deep, and we have BRANDON TATE unable to separate down field, you just know Brady had to wonder "Why did it take trading Randy Moss to get Belichick to trade for Branch? Was keeping Randy and trading for Branch so much to ask for?".

Moss Welker Branch Gronkowski Herhandez. What an incredible group that would have been.

Frankly, we are still in the same boat. Defenses which demand we go deep...will give us fits. Fits we wouldn't have if we still had Moss.


You do realize how the Jets shut us down in that playoff game right?

It was man coverage on the outside WRs and playing zone in the middle and flooding it with the two safeties.

Moss wouldn't have done jack squat. Revis would have shut him down.


Randy Moss is the solution to all the problems in the football world. Which is why he has so many rings.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonyto3690 wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
This is one of those instances where I think Brady will have his finger on the scale. He already witnessed the fallout from when the team played hardball with Deion Branch [granted, they had every reason to do so], but at his age, Brady will not want a repeat of what he had to go through in 2006.


Gronkowski, Hernandez, Edelman, Lloyd, Ridley, Vereen are all better players than any skill position players on that team. Different situation.

I'm sure Brady wants him back and I'm sure Brady will say he wants him back. But Welker given his style of play isn't a great long term investment. That being said, he's productive, gets the job done, is a blue collar Patriots player, and is the kind of character you want on your team. It's likely the Patriots sign him some way some how.

Edelman has looked really good when healthy this year. Our offense with Lloyd/Edelman on the outside with Gronk/Heranndez inside, and Ridley/Vereen in the backfield would still be an elite offense with Brady piloting it. We don't need Welker. We 100% need defensive improvements.


I'm a bigger Edelman fan than most here, but I wouldn't go as far as to say he's been "really good." He's proven he deserves a definitive role on offense and that he can produce when the ball is in his hands. I don't know that he's shown much ability in terms of route running or savvy.

The other thing here is that Hernandez is a bit injury prone and Lloyd and Gronkowski have had their share of injuries in their careers. Take Welker out and then lose one of those guys and the passing offense is in big trouble. Look how much Welker has helped bail out the offense while Hernandez was out. They need someone who is reliable and of good quality, if Welker isn't retained. It might seem that they have an embarrassment of riches in terms of offensive threats, but they need a large number of threats to keep the offense moving.

Could they stand to weaken the offense a bit if they improved the defense a lot? Of course. But I don't see much out there on defense that is a lock to make the types of improvements they would need to compensate for a drop on offense.

Besides, there should be money for Welker and defensive help though possibly not money for Welker, Vollmer and defensive help.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
Sciz wrote:
Tzimisce wrote:
Nevertheless, Welker has been his favorite target for five seasons now. Taking that away from a QB is a risky proposition, even if he is Tom Brady.
Well Welker is going to be 32 when next season starts, so I think it's safe to say it won't be too long before Brady is going to have to find a new favorite target whether Welker is here or not.
Brady is going to be 36. Odds of Welker's usefulness dwindling before Brady's aren't all that great, considering he's not a speed player.

Bottom line is that Welker's is a presence that needs to be supplemented, not replaced.


Slot receivers and guys of Welker's stature tend not to age well. Between the concussion risk, any loss of lateral agility will impact his game and it's natural to lose that over your early-mid 30's. I would be surprised if he's still effective enough at the age of 34 to be worth $7-9M per season which is what he'll demand.

Logic tells me that they should let Welker go and find an alternative solution but they might be in GFIN mode or might be so down on the possible alternatives that making a somewhat bad investment on Welker might be the most optimal solution
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