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Willis666
Joined: 29 Dec 2008
Posts: 252
Location: The hell known as the library....studying.
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 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Raidin wrote: | | Willis666 wrote: | | Raidin wrote: | Problem is it works both ways. Coaches and Reggie can say the players don't have the talent so the coaches should get a pass. Honestly if I was player I'd be thinking "hang on, you give us a rookie head coach an a rookie DC so don't expect us to pick up the slack for your rookie coaches".
There was one play against the Bengals were Joselio hanson was in the slot one on one vs AJ Green, obviously Greene broke off a big 40+ yard play. It could be argued that's on Hanson, got make the plays etc however if I was a player on that team I'd be looking at that match up and thinking "wtf are you going Tarver?". It goes both ways. |
That mentality is exactly what we have to get rid of. The players are paid professionals, and should be giving their all no matter what the circumstances are. To have that mindset is why the Raiders have a losing culture, and why it will take several years before we see them return to being the feared Nation.
The coaches are being evaluated too. I doubt that they would be given a pass, and I would bet that Reggie has more input next time with coordinators. Being a rookie GM means he's going to make mistakes. Now let's see if he learns from them. |
A lot of the players do give their all though, problem is no matter how much a guy like Hanson gives he just simply doesn't have the talent to consistently cover a guy like AJ Greene. It's the same for a lot of the other players.
I have to say the contrast is stark to the reaction Hugh got when he did the same. Agendas and all that I suppose. |
I agree with you. A guy like Hanson simply doesn't have the talent to be covering Green, but unfortunately he might have been the most talented choice that we had at the time. I mean, who else were the coaches going to use?? This team is really lacking on talent, and I'm really looking forward to see how Reggie upgrades it.
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NCOUGHMAN
Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 12581
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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| big_palooka wrote: | My favorite quote:
| Quote: | | Reggie McKenzie on Pat Lee: "the one thing he could do is come in there and get you by games... I wish Pat Lee was more dominant" |
Music to my ears. He wants dominate players. That's what this is about. For too long we've seen a roster of underachieving average players.
The fans get upset when guys like Pat Lee is getting cut. There's your problem!
Excited to see this offseason. |
so i guess reg think pat's replacement has been dominant 
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| green24 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN >>>>>> all of you |
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holyghost
Joined: 18 Jan 2007
Posts: 5306
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:34 am Post subject: |
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Here's my issue with the coaches vs. players argument.
I guarantee you across the board the coaching staff busts their butts in their jobs. When it comes to any of these at the lower levels who aspire to better jobs, and when it comes to the GM and Coordinators and Coach. All of them are working 7 days a week pretty much, work weeks in excess of 100 hours I am sure.
The argument keeps going back and forth, staff vs. players. Well, at least I know that when a coach doesn't execute his planned task it's not a matter of a lack of effort.
There's no coach "checking out". There's no GM "losing the players" who stops managing the organization.
That's where all the BS falls to pieces. How many players does anyone here thinks puts in as much time into the Raiders as Reggie McKenzie does? Pat Lee probably got paid a higher salary than Reggie McKenzie, and alot of other scrubs on the field. How many hours a week do you think even the hardest working Raider puts in? 50 hours? 60? And you know what, with 2 hour practices and meetings, and 2 hour workouts, I bet it's 50 hours or less for almost every player on the team.
So I think I will reserve my criticism of the coaching staff and whose fault it is for the day when the players start to actually put in the true effort that I know the staff puts in every week. Seriously, lemme see a player work to execute a play as long as it took the coaches to design the play??
Execution is a matter of effort and discipline. And if the players are failing at their execution then maybe they should put in more effort. And maybe they should appreciate their millionaire jobs a little more, or someone else who is willing to work can take them away. Let them work like the coaches work, or toss em. |
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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 17522
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| holyghost wrote: | Here's my issue with the coaches vs. players argument.
I guarantee you across the board the coaching staff busts their butts in their jobs. When it comes to any of these at the lower levels who aspire to better jobs, and when it comes to the GM and Coordinators and Coach. All of them are working 7 days a week pretty much, work weeks in excess of 100 hours I am sure.
The argument keeps going back and forth, staff vs. players. Well, at least I know that when a coach doesn't execute his planned task it's not a matter of a lack of effort.
There's no coach "checking out". There's no GM "losing the players" who stops managing the organization.
That's where all the BS falls to pieces. How many players does anyone here thinks puts in as much time into the Raiders as Reggie McKenzie does? Pat Lee probably got paid a higher salary than Reggie McKenzie, and alot of other scrubs on the field. How many hours a week do you think even the hardest working Raider puts in? 50 hours? 60? And you know what, with 2 hour practices and meetings, and 2 hour workouts, I bet it's 50 hours or less for almost every player on the team.
So I think I will reserve my criticism of the coaching staff and whose fault it is for the day when the players start to actually put in the true effort that I know the staff puts in every week. Seriously, lemme see a player work to execute a play as long as it took the coaches to design the play??
Execution is a matter of effort and discipline. And if the players are failing at their execution then maybe they should put in more effort. And maybe they should appreciate their millionaire jobs a little more, or someone else who is willing to work can take them away. Let them work like the coaches work, or toss em. |
WTH is this. Is this post serious. Please tell me what you seen in the gameplan or execution that I should assume Knapp is giving it 100%. I see a lot of assumptions in this post. "Lemme see a player work to execute a play as long as it took the coaches to design" What does this even mean. Also by your logic no coach ever in the NFL deserves any blame. I bet Art shell and his bed and breakfast ocord put in more hours than the players to, dont matter if the coaches suck though. |
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Silver&Black88
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24624
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | My favorite quote:
| Quote: | | Reggie McKenzie on Pat Lee: "the one thing he could do is come in there and get you by games... I wish Pat Lee was more dominant" |
Music to my ears. He wants dominate players. That's what this is about. For too long we've seen a roster of underachieving average players.
The fans get upset when guys like Pat Lee is getting cut. There's your problem!
Excited to see this offseason. |
so i guess reg think pat's replacement has been dominant |
I know. I laughed hard at BP. 'Music to my ears' lmao, that post was idiotic. Sorry man but I speaketh the truth. eth.
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Silver&Black88
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24624
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:39 am Post subject: |
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| dante9876 wrote: | | Please tell me what you seen in the gameplan or execution that I should assume Knapp is giving it 100% .... dont matter if the coaches suck though. |
There's your answer for Knapp. Allen and Tarver I cut more slack because they have less to work with
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Raidin
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 4309
Location: Dublin
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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It seems everyone agrees the reason the D sucks is lack of talent and not effort. Or are people now saying it's actually both? If it's a lack of talent the I can't fault the players really, blown assignments are on the players so if that happens then they deserve the criticism for that play. Since pretty much everyone said it's a talent issue I don't agree with throwing them all under the bus like Reggie did.
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OakRaiders3828
Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 9140
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Raidin wrote: | | It seems everyone agrees the reason the D sucks is lack of talent and not effort. Or are people now saying it's actually both? If it's a lack of talent the I can't fault the players really, blown assignments are on the players so if that happens then they deserve the criticism for that play. Since pretty much everyone said it's a talent issue I don't agree with throwing them all under the bus like Reggie did. |
I think that's for Reggie to decide, considering he sees them every day and reviews film constantly
Honestly, I'm glad he did what he did. He is the future, not 90% of the players. I expect a huge turnover over the next few years
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19044
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | My favorite quote:
| Quote: | | Reggie McKenzie on Pat Lee: "the one thing he could do is come in there and get you by games... I wish Pat Lee was more dominant" |
Music to my ears. He wants dominate players. That's what this is about. For too long we've seen a roster of underachieving average players.
The fans get upset when guys like Pat Lee is getting cut. There's your problem!
Excited to see this offseason. |
so i guess reg think pat's replacement has been dominant |
I know. I laughed hard at BP. 'Music to my ears' lmao, that post was idiotic. Sorry man but I speaketh the truth. eth. |
What's idiotic is you guys not reading between the lines. The 'dominate' player isn't here. That's for Reggie to find.
The point of the 'music to my ears' comment was he's not going to settle for mediocre players. Yes, Bartel is not a 'dominate' player. Tell me where did I say that? But he's better than Lee and needs evaluated further and Lee added nothing on STs.
What's idiotic are the people who get bent out of shape over mediocre guys like Pat Lee getting waived.
As for the dominate part. All words until Reggie proves capable of finding a dominate player.
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justwinbaby81
Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 3080
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| big_palooka wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | My favorite quote:
| Quote: | | Reggie McKenzie on Pat Lee: "the one thing he could do is come in there and get you by games... I wish Pat Lee was more dominant" |
Music to my ears. He wants dominate players. That's what this is about. For too long we've seen a roster of underachieving average players.
The fans get upset when guys like Pat Lee is getting cut. There's your problem!
Excited to see this offseason. |
so i guess reg think pat's replacement has been dominant |
I know. I laughed hard at BP. 'Music to my ears' lmao, that post was idiotic. Sorry man but I speaketh the truth. eth. |
What's idiotic is you guys not reading between the lines. The 'dominate' player isn't here. That's for Reggie to find.
The point of the 'music to my ears' comment was he's not going to settle for mediocre players. Yes, Bartel is not a 'dominate' player. Tell me where did I say that? But he's better than Lee and needs evaluated further and Lee added nothing on STs.
What's idiotic are the people who get bent out of shape over mediocre guys like Pat Lee getting waived.
As for the dominate part. All words until Reggie proves capable of finding a dominate player. |
It's this. This is what we have all been clamoring for with a GM. A guy who is going to assemble a roster of championship-caliber players. Not enough to "get by", like he said.
And enough with the coddling of these players. If they can't handle his comments and they don't give 100% because of it... Reggie will kick them to the curb, plain and simple.
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Silver&Black88
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24624
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| big_palooka wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | My favorite quote:
| Quote: | | Reggie McKenzie on Pat Lee: "the one thing he could do is come in there and get you by games... I wish Pat Lee was more dominant" |
Music to my ears. He wants dominate players. That's what this is about. For too long we've seen a roster of underachieving average players.
The fans get upset when guys like Pat Lee is getting cut. There's your problem!
Excited to see this offseason. |
so i guess reg think pat's replacement has been dominant |
I know. I laughed hard at BP. 'Music to my ears' lmao, that post was idiotic. Sorry man but I speaketh the truth. eth. |
What's idiotic is you guys not reading between the lines. The 'dominate' player isn't here. That's for Reggie to find.
The point of the 'music to my ears' comment was he's not going to settle for mediocre players. Yes, Bartel is not a 'dominate' player. Tell me where did I say that? But he's better than Lee and needs evaluated further and Lee added nothing on STs.
What's idiotic are the people who get bent out of shape over mediocre guys like Pat Lee getting waived.
As for the dominate part. All words until Reggie proves capable of finding a dominate player. |
Dude, if we're talking idiotic then I should tell you: Its 'dominant' not 'dominate'.
So we should get rid of mediocre players because they aren't dominant? Seems legit. Worked real well with Pat Lee. He settled for a below average player. Lee was better than Bartell has been since his return. Ergo, idiotic.
Seriously, you change your stance on things to match whatever is going on all the time. I mean, if they cut Seabass right now you'd say 'Oh he missed too many kicks over his career anyway, we could do better' just for the sake of being with whatever is happening.
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| husker_vikes3 wrote: | | What do you season your meatballs and sausage with? |
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dante9876
Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 17522
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | | Silver&Black88 wrote: | | NCOUGHMAN wrote: | | big_palooka wrote: | My favorite quote:
| Quote: | | Reggie McKenzie on Pat Lee: "the one thing he could do is come in there and get you by games... I wish Pat Lee was more dominant" |
Music to my ears. He wants dominate players. That's what this is about. For too long we've seen a roster of underachieving average players.
The fans get upset when guys like Pat Lee is getting cut. There's your problem!
Excited to see this offseason. |
so i guess reg think pat's replacement has been dominant |
I know. I laughed hard at BP. 'Music to my ears' lmao, that post was idiotic. Sorry man but I speaketh the truth. eth. |
What's idiotic is you guys not reading between the lines. The 'dominate' player isn't here. That's for Reggie to find.
The point of the 'music to my ears' comment was he's not going to settle for mediocre players. Yes, Bartel is not a 'dominate' player. Tell me where did I say that? But he's better than Lee and needs evaluated further and Lee added nothing on STs.
What's idiotic are the people who get bent out of shape over mediocre guys like Pat Lee getting waived.
As for the dominate part. All words until Reggie proves capable of finding a dominate player. |
Dude, if we're talking idiotic then I should tell you: Its 'dominant' not 'dominate'.
So we should get rid of mediocre players because they aren't dominant? Seems legit. Worked real well with Pat Lee. He settled for a below average player. Lee was better than Bartell has been since his return. Ergo, idiotic.
Seriously, you change your stance on things to match whatever is going on all the time. I mean, if they cut Seabass right now you'd say 'Oh he missed too many kicks over his career anyway, we could do better' just for the sake of being with whatever is happening. |
True story. Remember that thread where people was posting quotes on the flip flopping, it was pretty funny. |
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Silver&Black88
Joined: 24 Feb 2009
Posts: 24624
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Bay used to call him on that too. 
Maybe we should get jtagg to look him up again and find him for a throwback thread haha
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| husker_vikes3 wrote: | | What do you season your meatballs and sausage with? |
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19044
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: | Bay used to call him on that too.
Maybe we should get jtagg to look him up again and find him for a throwback thread haha |
So having a change in opinion is flip-flopping right? That's how this works.
I've been wrong on players, coaches, etc. I've changed positions when more evidence was available.
I forget you type something in the moment, it's 100% your position to the end of time.
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big_palooka
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 19044
Location: ATL
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| Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver&Black88 wrote: |
Dude, if we're talking idiotic then I should tell you: Its 'dominant' not 'dominate'. |
iPhone correction. Too lazy to undo it.
| Silver&Black88 wrote: |
So we should get rid of mediocre players because they aren't dominant? Seems legit. Worked real well with Pat Lee. He settled for a below average player. Lee was better than Bartell has been since his return. Ergo, idiotic. |
If anything Bartel and Lee are equal. Bartel has been a better CB in his career. Injury derailed him this year, or he'd likely be better.
Point is, Lee/Bartel.... they are not DOMINANT and Reggie choose to keep the player who might have more going forward.
| Silver&Black88 wrote: |
Seriously, you change your stance on things to match whatever is going on all the time. I mean, if they cut Seabass right now you'd say 'Oh he missed too many kicks over his career anyway, we could do better' just for the sake of being with whatever is happening. |
How so? Because I'm not coming down on Reggie for cutting a mediocre player? There is save maybe 4-5 players I would be upset seeing waived from this team. I have had that stance for the last 3 season. I was the one preaching 'lack of talent' on defense while everyone was playing it 100% on Bresnehan.
I've said before, I'm in wait and see mode. I'm not sipping the Kool-aid on Reggie. I want Knapp out just like the rest of us. But I'm not going to get bent out of shape when a scrub like Pat Lee is cut from this team.
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