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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 13257
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dawsonleery wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dawsonleery wrote:
We without a doubt, need a QB. Carson Palmer is a loser. He went 4-12 his last season with the Bengals, 4-5 in 2011 and now he's 3-9... I mean really? And he's a 33 year old veteran. What is so exciting about Palmer? I know Palmer doesn't deserve all the blame, he's far from the only problem but he is NOT the solution.


I love people who think winning and losing is solely the QB's fault or in this case, contradict themselves over the course of their post. "The guy's a loser. He's lost 1029358 games but it's not all his fault"

If you've actually watched the games and not looked at the W-L column only, you'd realize Palmer has played well in 80% of the games this season and most of this w/o a running game or an offensive line.

We most certainly do not need a QB. Not the least bit.


1. I watch the games.

2. I clearly said its not all Palmer's fault Raiders are bad. But until he can lead a team to a winning season, he's a loser, simple. Not hard to understand we have winners and losers.

Raiders are a team in full rebuild mode, Palmer is a 33 year old QB with a huge salary... He's not the only problem with the team but he's not the answer either. That's what I said. You are twisting my words. Palmer has no future here, he's not going to lead this team to anything but a top 5 draft pick.


First off, we might not get that high of a pick this draft and secondly, I can guarantee you if we had anything that resembled a defense, we'd have a competitive team and that's even w/ the crappy offensive line and running game. Our defense literally does nothing to help us. Rarely do they stop anyone and they make teams look like they're full of all-pros for the most part.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 13257
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:


As for Pryor: If a guy like Palmer can't succeed, why would Pryor? Palmer actually can zip a ball, execute anticipation throws and run the offense including audibles. These are all things Pryor struggled with as recently as preseason. And on top of that, he'd be strapped with all the crap Palmer deals with. Drops, Knapp, bad blocking, etc. I'm not saying never play him, but starting him would be ridiculous imo. I'm fine with playing him in garbage time after a game is decided, but starting? Hell to the no.


idk those play action roll out plays imo are tp's specialty and knapp loves to call them. cp is so out of his element on the roll outs its sad. sometimes he could scramble and get the first to extend drives but he doesnt. seemed like the defense knew he wasnt a threat to run so they doubled up on coverage. i know people say well he is a qb so his job is to throw but sometimes a qb has to tuck it and run for a first.


I know you didn't mean it like this but tbh it really sounds like you just want a qb that can run it. You neglect that Pryor has issues with mechanics, especially footwork. How would rollouts make that easier on him? We all know he can't be getting coached that well Laughing


It's obvious that's all he wants. It's evident by his first preseason week G,B,U thread. He said Pryor was exciting him when he was running around 15 yards behind the LoS b/c he had no clue what he was doing out there. Hell, he put him in the "good" category that game and Pryor was atrocious.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.
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holyghost


Joined: 18 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


When will people understand it isnt about having a good QB. Its about clearing as much cap space as possible while getting rid of players who will not be on the team 3 years from now. I would take Moore in a second if it meant we was saving money. I would have a different opinion if I thought this team was one offseason away from being competitive but I seriously dont believe that.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


When will people understand it isnt about having a good QB. Its about clearing as much cap space as possible while getting rid of players who will not be on the team 3 years from now. I would take Moore in a second if it meant we was saving money. I would have a different opinion if I thought this team was one offseason away from being competitive but I seriously dont believe that.


So let me get this straight. I really mean no offense or anything, I just want to be clear:

You're in favor of getting rid of Palmer in order to try to clear cap space? That's the reason?
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macklemore


Joined: 27 Apr 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


When will people understand it isnt about having a good QB. Its about clearing as much cap space as possible while getting rid of players who will not be on the team 3 years from now. I would take Moore in a second if it meant we was saving money. I would have a different opinion if I thought this team was one offseason away from being competitive but I seriously dont believe that.


So let me get this straight. I really mean no offense or anything, I just want to be clear:

You're in favor of getting rid of Palmer in order to try to clear cap space? That's the reason?


building through FA isn't the best option anyways, always end up overpaying, and it's rare that teams let franchise players slip away.

We need draft picks, not cap space.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


People have been whining and clamoring for us to have a good QB since Gannon.... well, we have that and now they want to get rid of him for an unknown athlete who has no experience, terrible footwork and mechanics, or a less-talented QB b/c there is none better in the FA market.

Our fan base is all kinds of special.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


People have been whining and clamoring for us to have a good QB since Gannon.... well, we have that and now they want to get rid of him for an unknown athlete who has no experience, terrible footwork and mechanics, or a less-talented QB b/c there is none better in the FA market.

Our fan base is all kinds of special.


I'm thinking of one particular kind of "special" lately.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macklemore wrote:

We need draft picks, not cap space.


+1
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(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


When will people understand it isnt about having a good QB. Its about clearing as much cap space as possible while getting rid of players who will not be on the team 3 years from now. I would take Moore in a second if it meant we was saving money. I would have a different opinion if I thought this team was one offseason away from being competitive but I seriously dont believe that.


So let me get this straight. I really mean no offense or anything, I just want to be clear:

You're in favor of getting rid of Palmer in order to try to clear cap space? That's the reason?


Not the only reason but the main one at this point. He is 13 mill next year and than 15 mill the following. Do you think he is worth 14 over the next 2 years on this team. There are only like 3 or 4 QBs I would pay that on this current team. QBs who I feel could mask a few of our issues. People want to act like people just hate Palmer which isnt the case. Dude is just an above average QB. Thats all. Also lets say we cut him this year we looking at 7 mill dead money. Thats still better than committing 28 mill to a QB who is good enough to win with this team. And unless you believe that we are close to being competitive again I dont see whats the point of giving him that.
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Darbsk


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:

Not the only reason but the main one at this point. He is 13 mill next year and than 15 mill the following. Do you think he is worth 14 over the next 2 years on this team. There are only like 3 or 4 QBs I would pay that on this current team. QBs who I feel could mask a few of our issues. People want to act like people just hate Palmer which isnt the case. Dude is just an above average QB. Thats all. Also lets say we cut him this year we looking at 7 mill dead money. Thats still better than committing 28 mill to a QB who is good enough to win with this team. And unless you believe that we are close to being competitive again I dont see whats the point of giving him that.


To be crystal clear I'm not saying that we are a playoff caliber team and certainly not a good team right now, but................. San Diego we lose by freak circumstances and should and could have won, Atlanta we lose by a last second field goal and Cleveland we lose by 3 points and that's without considering what could have happened with a fair call on the fumble in the Bengals game so we could very concievably be 6-6 right now with this exact team.

If we add maybe 1 or 2 decent free agents and find 3 or 4 players in the draft I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that we can be genuinely competetive next season. For example if we were to add a good FA corner back, a run stopping FA DT and then manage to draft a pass rusher who has an impact and a RT who is good that would make a huge difference IMO.

I will say that I wouldn't expect over 1 off-season to be transformed into a great team, but we will at least have something to build off similar to the improvement in Denver last season (pre Manning), I don't think that is unreasonable.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


When will people understand it isnt about having a good QB. Its about clearing as much cap space as possible while getting rid of players who will not be on the team 3 years from now. I would take Moore in a second if it meant we was saving money. I would have a different opinion if I thought this team was one offseason away from being competitive but I seriously dont believe that.


I'm a Palmer supporter, but I agree with this. Palmer isn't going to be on this team in 3 years. His salary (I admittedly don't know his cap numbers for waiving him/keeping him, etc.) serves no purpose to the team that is not in position to compete right now.

Honestly, look at where the Raiders are at right now w/ the draft:

Chiefs 2-10
Jaguars 2-10
Panthers 3-9
Eagles 3-9
Raiders 3-9

The Raiders have the Panthers and Chiefs still to play. They are assured a top 5 pick IMO.

This brings the question. A bad team, rebuilding, should they draft a QB (the most important position on the field) to build around?

If not, can they find a cheaper alternative than Palmer? Answer, yes. And IMO, Moore is the best bet.

My preference, if Palmer doesn't fit into a long term plan, don't pay him expecting short term results. I personally like Moore a lot. He's a competitor and could be a stop gap while we wait for a better class of QBs and (hopefully) build up a talented roster.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
How much dead money would Palmer cost us.


7 mill against the cap regardless. Getting rid of him to bring someone else in and not be competitive at all, b/c that's what is available in FA and our roster, is just a dumb move. Flacco will be resigned so that leaves us w/ Matt Moore, Jason Campbell, and Tarvaris Jackson as viable options. None of which are better than Palmer and all of which would look awful w/ the team we have right now.


When people get a legit dose of the reality of how hard it is to get a decent QB, maybe they will relent. Palmer is very far from perfect, but Leinart, Jackson, Campbell and Moore are not the least bit enticing as alternatives.


When will people understand it isnt about having a good QB. Its about clearing as much cap space as possible while getting rid of players who will not be on the team 3 years from now. I would take Moore in a second if it meant we was saving money. I would have a different opinion if I thought this team was one offseason away from being competitive but I seriously dont believe that.


So let me get this straight. I really mean no offense or anything, I just want to be clear:

You're in favor of getting rid of Palmer in order to try to clear cap space? That's the reason?


Not the only reason but the main one at this point. He is 13 mill next year and than 15 mill the following. Do you think he is worth 14 over the next 2 years on this team. There are only like 3 or 4 QBs I would pay that on this current team. QBs who I feel could mask a few of our issues. People want to act like people just hate Palmer which isnt the case. Dude is just an above average QB. Thats all. Also lets say we cut him this year we looking at 7 mill dead money. Thats still better than committing 28 mill to a QB who is good enough to win with this team. And unless you believe that we are close to being competitive again I dont see whats the point of giving him that.


But starter money is at least 5 million, so with his cap hit plus what we'd pay for a new starter, we'd be in the same spot. Hell, worse. He's at least average and knows our system well. There aren't Many better FA QB prospects out there, much less any who'd take a salary less than the difference between Palmer's salary and dead money cap hit if cut. This is why I think it would be a bad decision to go in a different direction next year. We can't do better barring a blockbuster trade which won't happen. Unless you'd rather have a worse QB
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
I'm a Palmer supporter, but I agree with this. Palmer isn't going to be on this team in 3 years. His salary (I admittedly don't know his cap numbers for waiving him/keeping him, etc.) serves no purpose to the team that is not in position to compete right now.

Honestly, look at where the Raiders are at right now w/ the draft:

Chiefs 2-10
Jaguars 2-10
Panthers 3-9
Eagles 3-9
Raiders 3-9

The Raiders have the Panthers and Chiefs still to play. They are assured a top 5 pick IMO.

This brings the question. A bad team, rebuilding, should they draft a QB (the most important position on the field) to build around?

If not, can they find a cheaper alternative than Palmer? Answer, yes. And IMO, Moore is the best bet.

My preference, if Palmer doesn't fit into a long term plan, don't pay him expecting short term results. I personally like Moore a lot. He's a competitor and could be a stop gap while we wait for a better class of QBs and (hopefully) build up a talented roster.


I've always been a big Moore fan too. I thought he was the guy in Carolina but they went Newton. He's one of the few people I'd be alright with leaving Palmer for. IF he'd take a smaller salary than the difference between keeping Palmer and releasing him. Only problem is he'd be facing the same problems Palmer is. And the only thing he has on Palmer is better mobility. Just about everywhere else, I'd take Palmer.

Still, Moore lost out to Tannehil in TC. I realize they probably preferred giving their Franchise QB a shot since there wasn't a big difference in production, but that in itself implies he's about par with a raw rookie qb. And he was losing out to Garrard at first too before he got injured. A middle of the pack castoff coming off a year of no football and with back trouble.

In short, I could live with the move but I'd still probably keep Palmer if it were up to me and this was the best alternative.
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