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jjab360
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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 Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| jrry32 wrote: | | jjab360 wrote: | | DEE RAWL wrote: | | jjab360 wrote: | | I like some things about Allen and I feel like he could be the type of guy it would be easy for a QB to form a bond with like an Amendola or Stevie Johnson but I don't think he comes close as an athletic talent or downfield playmaker to some of the other top WRs in the draft. |
Couldnt disagree more. He may not have elite speed but his athleticism in general is very rare. |
Other than short area quickness, what is so great about his athleticism? Purely speaking of athleticism, what separates this guy from a Michael Crabtree or Austin Pettis? |
Is this a serious question? Speed and burst. On top of that, he's far more physical/stronger with better balance than Petrie.
People underrate Allen's speed based on the offense and QB he's stuck with. I think he has 4.45 to 4.50 speed. He's right there with AJ Green in terms of speed. |
Pettis ran a 4.55 at the combine which is right around what I see Allen running, maybe a little faster. Green actually has very good speed and consistently burned defenses in college. Has a nice, long stride compared to Allen's choppier style similar to a much smaller receiver.
Right there with A.J. Green? I know you know what you're talking about jrry, but you're off on this one.
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DEE RAWL
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just cuz Hunter is a track jumper doesnt mean it translates onto the field like it does for Allen.
And what are you talking about then if you dont mean short area/route running/YAC quickness?? Because quickness is irrelevant in all other aspects like go routes for example.
If you dont agree you must be watching the wrong stuff. Who cares if he isnt the physical speciman like Julio or Dez? Its not like Hunter is either. I would take Allen over Dez anyday.
In any case, Allen has Elite athleticism and above average speed. AJ Green is a very good comparison, i MIGHT even argue Allen is more athletic.
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| jjab360 wrote: |
Like I said, outside of short area quickness, but that was still the only thing you were able to refer to other than his leaping ability which is average at best and pales in comparison to a champion high jumper like Justin Hunter.
In reality, Keenan Allen is no more 6'3 than Crabtree was and doesn't have the powerful frame of a Dez or Julio but much more like, yes, the aforementioned Austin Pettis. Combine that with average speed and explosion, and I just don't see the |
Keenan Allen is not 6'1". If he's not 6'3", he's 6'2.5" or 6'2.25". It's really not a big deal.
And I don't give a rat's behind if his frame is like Pettis. They don't play the game at all similarly and Pettis was not a YAC guy in college. Allen's balance and ability to run behind his pads make him a dangerous YAC WR.
Seems to me that you're far too caught up with trying to create parallels then looking at the guy's game.
And I would no more say that he has average speed than I'd say AJ Green has average speed. He's not a burner and not a guy who is going to pull away with his extra gear but neither was AJ. He's a guy who has great burst and ability to accelerate which gains him a lot of separation.
He's basically the anti Alshon Jeffery when it comes to speed.
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Last edited by jrry32 on Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:21 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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DEE RAWL
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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Allen short choppy steps?? What on earth are you watching??? He has really long legs and strides in the open field. The only time he shortens his stride length is when he has to make a cut which is what you have to do.
You sir are the one who is off on this.
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| jjab360 wrote: | | jrry32 wrote: | | jjab360 wrote: | | DEE RAWL wrote: | | jjab360 wrote: | | I like some things about Allen and I feel like he could be the type of guy it would be easy for a QB to form a bond with like an Amendola or Stevie Johnson but I don't think he comes close as an athletic talent or downfield playmaker to some of the other top WRs in the draft. |
Couldnt disagree more. He may not have elite speed but his athleticism in general is very rare. |
Other than short area quickness, what is so great about his athleticism? Purely speaking of athleticism, what separates this guy from a Michael Crabtree or Austin Pettis? |
Is this a serious question? Speed and burst. On top of that, he's far more physical/stronger with better balance than Petrie.
People underrate Allen's speed based on the offense and QB he's stuck with. I think he has 4.45 to 4.50 speed. He's right there with AJ Green in terms of speed. |
Pettis ran a 4.55 at the combine which is right around what I see Allen running, maybe a little faster. Green actually has very good speed and consistently burned defenses in college. Has a nice, long stride compared to Allen's choppier style similar to a much smaller receiver.
Right there with A.J. Green? I know you know what you're talking about jrry, but you're off on this one. |
Green was a 4.50 guy at the combine. Him and Allen have very similar styles of running and both look so smooth out there at the WR position.
And yea, he does have short, choppier strides but you're wrong when you say AJ had a nice, long stride. They have almost the exact same stride.
They both have the shorter strides because it works extremely well with their quick feet:
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000100051/A-J-Green-for-a-44-yard-reception
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:8502850
Green burned defenses because he had a chance to. He played in a more vertically oriented offense. Allen essentially plays in CFB's version of the Pat Shurmur offense.
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jjab360
Joined: 31 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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First off, I recognize Allen has good YAC skills and short area quickness, I've already recognized this which is why I said "other than". I thought that was obvious enough, apparently I'll have to clarify next time. My problem is the lack of speed and explosiveness, and the comparison to A.J. is far off in both regards there.
And yes, I realize his game is nothing like Pettis', I just said they have a similar frame and speed, are my posts really not that clear?
Bottom line is I don't feel like Allen is an elite athlete, and I don't feel comfortable taking an average athlete at WR in the first round. None of the top WRs in the league are average athletes and I seriously doubt this guy is the one to break the trend.
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| jjab360 wrote: | First off, I recognize Allen has good YAC skills and short area quickness, I've already recognized this which is why I said "other than". I thought that was obvious enough, apparently I'll have to clarify next time. My problem is the lack of speed and explosiveness, and the comparison to A.J. is far off in both regards there.
And yes, I realize his game is nothing like Pettis', I just said they have a similar frame and speed, are my posts really not that clear?
Bottom line is I don't feel like Allen is an elite athlete, and I don't feel comfortable taking an average athlete at WR in the first round. None of the top WRs in the league are average athletes and I seriously doubt this guy is the one to break the trend. |
He's much more than an average athlete. The only thing you're really holding against the guy is that he doesn't run a 4.3. Even still, he has similar speed to AJ. His timed speed will likely be in the same range. Maybe .02 seconds off.
As for top WRs that aren't elite athletes, you have Anquan Boldin, Jerry Rice, Brandon Marshall, AJ Green, Dez Bryant, Victor Cruz, Marques Colston, Miles Austin, Dwayne Bowe...I can go on.
While Allen's top end speed is average, his burst and acceleration are excellent. Same is true with AJ although I think AJ might have a step in terms of top end speed. Point is that Allen is going to be a guy that will get separation at the next level because of the skills he possesses.
And his overall running style and playing style, is a lot like AJ Green. AJ has/had better hands and ability to go up and get the ball(body control too) but Allen is more physical with better YAC ability.
Frankly, what's most concerning to me isn't that Allen isn't an elite athlete, it's that Justin Hunter has been dropping as many passes as he has.
Right now, I'd say both are relatively close with Terrence Williams also closing in. Not sure I'd go WR Round 1 right now anyways with the depth of this class. Depends on who is there at our pick.
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Wr80
Joined: 27 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:13 am Post subject: |
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| All I know is Allen is a dirty dirty man and can really explode after the catch. I've watched his play and man his YAC ability is crazy. He has the physical mentality to get the ball and turn up field. We need that. He'd be a good fit, i'd be happy if we took him but wouldn't think much of it if we didn't. |
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Ray
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| i really dont see that much of an upgrade with Allen, hopefully Brian Quick will do much better in his 2nd year, i just hate the thought of drafting average players year after year. |
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DEE RAWL
Joined: 02 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: | | i really dont see that much of an upgrade with Allen, hopefully Brian Quick will do much better in his 2nd year, i just hate the thought of drafting average players year after year. |
Allen is ANYTHING BUT average...
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Ray
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ok he may be better than average, I guess I'm still looking for the next Julio , or AJ Green , they don't come around that often. |
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DEE RAWL
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| Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Ray wrote: | | Ok he may be better than average, I guess I'm still looking for the next Julio , or AJ Green , they don't come around that often. |
We have no control over who the prospects are but Allen is very similar to Green, if they do in fact decide that Allen is worth one of the 1st rounders (which he is) then you should be happy because while not elite, he is very close to it as his production has been hindered by the team he is on.
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DerekBrink
Joined: 16 Nov 2012
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:02 am Post subject: |
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| DEE RAWL wrote: | | jjab360 wrote: | | DEE RAWL wrote: | | jjab360 wrote: | | I like some things about Allen and I feel like he could be the type of guy it would be easy for a QB to form a bond with like an Amendola or Stevie Johnson but I don't think he comes close as an athletic talent or downfield playmaker to some of the other top WRs in the draft. |
Couldnt disagree more. He may not have elite speed but his athleticism in general is very rare. |
Other than short area quickness, what is so great about his athleticism? Purely speaking of athleticism, what separates this guy from a Michael Crabtree or Austin Pettis? |
You must be joking. I love Austin Pettis as much as anyone but he isnt in the same class. I really dislike Crabtree and was good in college but still not as athletic as Allen. The difference isnt that much but Allen is still more athletic. His ability to change direction within a split second and then get to full speed after making that cut is remarkable. His leaping and hurdling ability is also second to none. He has the agility of a player normally much smaller that had a better center of gravity.
I compare Allen to a Cheetah (speed not related simply agility), Crabtree to a Puma and Pettis to a Lion  |
yeah Pettis is nowhere near the same type of athlete.
That being said I don't want to draft Allen or any wide receiver in the first round. With both our pick likely to be top 15(I think Skins go 2-3 and finish 7-9) I think we'd be overdrafting.
At this point I think we should sign one of Bowe, Wallace or Jennings. I just don't want another receiver we have to develop. We already have Pettis, Quick and Givens filling that role.
1. Bowe/Wallace/Jennings
2. Givens
3. Amendola- slot
4. Pettis/Quick
5. Quick/Pettis
That looks like a very solid receiving corps imo. Then I'd like to take an OL. Joeckel would be great but probably will be gone by the time we pick. So Warmack, Matthew or Jones would be great.
I'd spend the other pick on a TE, Safety, or OLB. |
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jrry32
Joined: 04 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| DerekBrink wrote: |
yeah Pettis is nowhere near the same type of athlete.
That being said I don't want to draft Allen or any wide receiver in the first round. With both our pick likely to be top 15(I think Skins go 2-3 and finish 7-9) I think we'd be overdrafting.
At this point I think we should sign one of Bowe, Wallace or Jennings. I just don't want another receiver we have to develop. We already have Pettis, Quick and Givens filling that role.
1. Bowe/Wallace/Jennings
2. Givens
3. Amendola- slot
4. Pettis/Quick
5. Quick/Pettis
That looks like a very solid receiving corps imo. Then I'd like to take an OL. Joeckel would be great but probably will be gone by the time we pick. So Warmack, Matthew or Jones would be great.
I'd spend the other pick on a TE, Safety, or OLB. |
At this point, I think we're going to be in the 12 to 16 range with both our picks. I'd definitely consider drafting a WR there. Whether it's Allen, Hunter or Terrance Williams. I REALLY like Terrance Williams.
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DEE RAWL
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:58 am Post subject: |
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Everyone seems to be confusing Allen for some raw athlete much like Quick when in reality that couldnt be further from the truth. He is a very polished NFL ready WR much like AJ Green and some might have argued that Julio was had some questions about exactly how ready he was. It really just depends at what pace the coaches want to use them at. Look at Givens, he developed very fast and is now a key player for the team. Probably be similar with Allen, far from a "project" like Quick.
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