Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Week 12 Cardinals vs Rams - Defensive Metrics
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Arizona Cardinals
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
AZPSquared wrote:
the defense is great but a good pass rusher would make them elite. I know Moore could play in a 3-4 beacuse he has in the past, but i am not sure if Werner can


Elite defense stop the run. A pass rusher doesn't change that, especially a guy who's likely going to be adjusting to playing with his hand up and likely in and out of the lineup on run downs because of it.


That's right, look at Dallas up until this year with Sean Lee and the kid from UNC.

Years they had Ratliff and Ware, but were tourched in the run game.


Dallas also had a seive of a secondary. We stuggle at times vs the run but do you beleive that teams are going to be able to run it 10-12 times a drive and consistently go 65+ yards to score against this defense? If we play well on first down (Get into 2nd and 10, 2nd and 9) we generally get off the field two plays later.

Is our run defense below the average in the NFL? At 4.2 YPC allowed we are pretty much dead in the middle (16th) of the pack alongside Chicago (4.3), Philly (4.2). We are in the top 7 in rushing TD's allowed. We have a run D that we can survive with in this division. Thus far this season vs NFC West teams we are allowing 4.06 YPC. In three of four games we have held the opposition under 4.0 YPC and in two of four we have held them under 3.5 YPC.

Is this an elite run defense, heck no. Is it a run defense that can survive in this division. Yes.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
AZPSquared wrote:
the defense is great but a good pass rusher would make them elite. I know Moore could play in a 3-4 beacuse he has in the past, but i am not sure if Werner can


Elite defense stop the run. A pass rusher doesn't change that, especially a guy who's likely going to be adjusting to playing with his hand up and likely in and out of the lineup on run downs because of it.


That's right, look at Dallas up until this year with Sean Lee and the kid from UNC.

Years they had Ratliff and Ware, but were tourched in the run game.


Dallas also had a seive of a secondary. We stuggle at times vs the run but do you beleive that teams are going to be able to run it 10-12 times a drive and consistently go 65+ yards to score against this defense? If we play well on first down (Get into 2nd and 10, 2nd and 9) we generally get off the field two plays later.

Is our run defense below the average in the NFL? At 4.2 YPC allowed we are pretty much dead in the middle (16th) of the pack alongside Chicago (4.3), Philly (4.2). We are in the top 7 in rushing TD's allowed. We have a run D that we can survive with in this division. Thus far this season vs NFC West teams we are allowing 4.06 YPC. In three of four games we have held the opposition under 4.0 YPC and in two of four we have held them under 3.5 YPC.

Is this an elite run defense, heck no. Is it a run defense that can survive in this division. Yes.


Bolded: I definitely do not agree.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
JohnnyV


Joined: 04 Jan 2008
Posts: 2205
Location: Chicago, Illinois
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No one is talking about how we never play with a lead, forcing teams to throw.

Teams build a lead on this team and ram is down out throats.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnnyV wrote:
No one is talking about how we never play with a lead, forcing teams to throw.

Teams build a lead on this team and ram is down out throats.


Played with a lead at the half in each of the last 2 weeks. That's not really the root cause of our run defense troubles.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

29 carries for 113 yards, 33 carries for 115 yards, 32 carries for 111 yards and 34 carries for 173 yards.

Those are the four games vs the NFC West this seaon. Only one of those is bad. The other three are actually rather good.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
JohnnyV wrote:
No one is talking about how we never play with a lead, forcing teams to throw.

Teams build a lead on this team and ram is down out throats.


Played with a lead at the half in each of the last 2 weeks. That's not really the root cause of our run defense troubles.


Our troubles come from some schematics, execution issues and some discipline issues. I have not looked deeply into our run defense, but more often than not a blown assignment or a missed tackle is the root cause.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Frank Gore has had two games this season where he averaged less than 4.0 YPC. One of those two was against us. We held Lynch below his seasonal average. We have struggled twice against the Rams, but only one of those did he really smash it down our throat.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
29 carries for 113 yards, 33 carries for 115 yards, 32 carries for 111 yards and 34 carries for 173 yards.

Those are the four games vs the NFC West this seaon. Only one of those is bad. The other three are actually rather good.


The second St. Louis game you're counting as "rather good" has Sam Bradford credited with 5 "carries" for 0 yards. Their running backs had 27 carries for 111 yards, 4.11 YPC. That's just a stitch above our season average. Seattle game is much the same, with Russell Wilson dragging the raw statistics down with 8 "carries" for just 20 yards. Lynch went for 85 yards on 21 carries, 4.0 a clip again. The 2nd St. Louis game speaks fort itself.

Your 3 "rather good" performances just became 1. And we're 1-3 in those games.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
Frank Gore has had two games this season where he averaged less than 4.0 YPC. One of those two was against us. We held Lynch below his seasonal average. We have struggled twice against the Rams, but only one of those did he really smash it down our throat.


Bolded: But Kendall Hunter hit us for 4.3. That's well below his season average too but when the game's over at the half, the motivation level drops. And again, that's just 1 of the 4 games were played well run wise. 1 of 4.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
khodder wrote:
29 carries for 113 yards, 33 carries for 115 yards, 32 carries for 111 yards and 34 carries for 173 yards.

Those are the four games vs the NFC West this seaon. Only one of those is bad. The other three are actually rather good.


The second St. Louis game you're counting as "rather good" has Sam Bradford credited with 5 "carries" for 0 yards. Their running backs had 27 carries for 111 yards, 4.11 YPC. That's just a stitch above our season average. Seattle game is much the same, with Russell Wilson dragging the raw statistics down with 8 "carries" for just 20 yards. Lynch went for 85 yards on 21 carries, 4.0 a clip again. The 2nd St. Louis game speaks fort itself.

Your 3 "rather good" performances just became 1. And we're 1-3 in those games.


Our seasonal average is 4.2 YPC. In the Seattle game we kept Turbin and Washington to 4 carries for 10 yards.

Backs only, we have three games of four vs the NFC West better than our seasonal average. You know where we got killed? Letting Alex Green carry 11 times for 53 yards vs the Packers. Adrian Peterson going for 23/153 vs the Vikings and allowing Spiller to go 12 carries for 88 yards.

This season in our four games vs the NFC West we have had one bad game really blow out our average. The other three games we sit right about our seasonal average of 4.2 YPC.

We need to get back more to the way we were playing the run in week one, but I am not as overtly worried about our run defense as you are. Is it the weak point of our D, sure, is it a defense that a team will be able to line up and run it 10 times on an 11 play drive and take it 70 yards for a score, I don't think so.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
khodder wrote:
29 carries for 113 yards, 33 carries for 115 yards, 32 carries for 111 yards and 34 carries for 173 yards.

Those are the four games vs the NFC West this seaon. Only one of those is bad. The other three are actually rather good.


The second St. Louis game you're counting as "rather good" has Sam Bradford credited with 5 "carries" for 0 yards. Their running backs had 27 carries for 111 yards, 4.11 YPC. That's just a stitch above our season average. Seattle game is much the same, with Russell Wilson dragging the raw statistics down with 8 "carries" for just 20 yards. Lynch went for 85 yards on 21 carries, 4.0 a clip again. The 2nd St. Louis game speaks fort itself.

Your 3 "rather good" performances just became 1. And we're 1-3 in those games.


Our seasonal average is 4.2 YPC. In the Seattle game we kept Turbin and Washington to 4 carries for 10 yards.

Backs only, we have three games of four vs the NFC West better than our seasonal average. You know where we got killed? Letting Alex Green carry 11 times for 53 yards vs the Packers. Adrian Peterson going for 23/153 vs the Vikings and allowing Spiller to go 12 carries for 88 yards.

This season in our four games vs the NFC West we have had one bad game really blow out our average. The other three games we sit right about our seasonal average of 4.2 YPC.

We need to get back more to the way we were playing the run in week one, but I am not as overtly worried about our run defense as you are. Is it the weak point of our D, sure, is it a defense that a team will be able to line up and run it 10 times on an 11 play drive and take it 70 yards for a score, I don't think so.


-Who cares what Turbin or Washinton did? When the games on the line, they're not getting the football.
-LOL, you talk like "sitting at our seasonal average" is a good thing. Our seasonal average is 16th in the National Football League. That's not good. It's certainly better than our quarterback pressure and quarterback sacks league ranking, the latter of which is 5th in the league.
-I don't know why you'd be worried about a team running 10 times in 11 plays. Nobody does that.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
-LOL, you talk like "sitting at our seasonal average" is a good thing. Our seasonal average is 16th in the National Football League. That's not good. It's certainly better than our quarterback pressure and quarterback sacks league ranking, the latter of which is 5th in the league.


It is not a good thing, but it is not an end of the world, going to turn an elite defense into an average defense thing either.

It is not like teams don't run the ball on us (29 times/game). Of course we can improve in the area and a football team is always looking for continual improvement, but right now and elite edge rusher does more for us than an inside backer. On the losses we take on the ground by using the 2-4-5 a lot are offset and them some by the benefits gained by using the 2-4-5 against the pass.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
-LOL, you talk like "sitting at our seasonal average" is a good thing. Our seasonal average is 16th in the National Football League. That's not good. It's certainly better than our quarterback pressure and quarterback sacks league ranking, the latter of which is 5th in the league.


It is not a good thing, but it is not an end of the world, going to turn an elite defense into an average defense thing either.

It is not like teams don't run the ball on us (29 times/game). Of course we can improve in the area and a football team is always looking for continual improvement, but right now and elite edge rusher does more for us than an inside backer. On the losses we take on the ground by using the 2-4-5 a lot are offset and them some by the benefits gained by using the 2-4-5 against the pass.


"It's not like teams don't run the ball on us"

Ya, that's kinda the point. We're the 6th most run on team in the NFL and the 4th least thrown on and with current personnel/scheme, that won't change. That just furthers my argument.

As far as the last sentence goes, I couldn't disagree more.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
khodder


Moderator - MVP
Joined: 19 Dec 2005
Posts: 50813
Location: New New York
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I challenge you to go look at the St Louis games. Chart the number of 2-4-5 sets that we play when the offense has less than 3 receivers on the field and then get back to me (I might actually do this myself).

I am darn sure we are going out in those 2-4-5 sets to match up with the three receiver sets being thrown out by the opposition. Teams running out of those three wide sets are successful, more successful against us than those who line up in the I-Form or a Pro set and pound it against our 3-4 front.

But if we lined up in that 3-4 front vs three wide sets we are giving up a lot in the passing game.
_________________

Conductor of the Keith Wenning bandwagon.
Zach Hodges is a 1st Round Pick in 2015.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address MSN Messenger
stchamp98


Most Valuable Poster (3rd Ballot)

Joined: 11 Apr 2005
Posts: 52979
Location: Havre, Montana
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then run 3-3-5. Simple fix.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Arizona Cardinals All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group