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Shurmur's biggest win; Saban buzz in air
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bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 9076
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.
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ReggieCamp


Joined: 06 Dec 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.



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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
You continue to deny he got hired because of his last name. It's funny that you try and try to get away from that point, but long story short, that's all it boils down to.

If the Rams had promoted Shurmur to be a HC after being a mediocre OC it would have made a bit more sense than having the Browns going after him after being a mediocre OC.

The Rams may or may not have improved under Shurmur, I'm going to guess his offense was pretty bad if they went 1-15 in his first year there as an OC.

Quote:
like a natural progression from NFL position coach, to coordinator to head coach after many years....IT DOESN"T HAPPEN THAT WAY VERY OFTEN...read what I gave you.


It actually happens all the time. I don't understand how hard it is for you to understand since you just looked at it. I am saying I would think some of these guys might need to keep their coordinator jobs a bit longer before becoming HC's, but that's neither here nor there when they are actually excelling at their jobs, unlike Shurmur, who wasn't.

Quote:
And yeah man, a lot of those guys are on losing teams...half the league loses every week...what do you want, all 32 teams to have winning records or the whole league to be 8-8?


I said nothing about them being on losing teams, I said they were going to get fired, which usually means the owners/presidents think they are in over there head or they are continuously failing to meet expectations, generally with multiple losing seasons.

Quote:
I think you missed the part where I said I was only reporting their NFL experience. There was a lot of stuff there, so it's an understandable mistake.


I didn't miss it, I just think it's laughable watching you move the goal posts so you can attempt to score points you didn't earn. No one cares about coaches that were fired 8 years ago, that only helps my points. No one cares about what their NFL experience was when they were successful college head coaches, something I already said was part my opinion.

Quote:
Let's just talk about NFL experience before being named an NFL coach for the first time then...


Why? That was never a point made by me so you're really just arguing with some made up points that mean nothing to me. I'm pretty sure this is the definition of a strawman argument, a comment I pretty much never make around here.

Quote:
So you're also mistaken about the 2 year DC then internal hire thing.
No, I said he was an internal hire, which he was, and that he was a DC for 2 years before becoming a HC, which is true. Sorry that you failed to figure that easy point out and had to reach at more nonsense.


Quote:
If there is anything you question, rest assured I will check into that and give you the correct answer. But please spare us all the "I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing" nonsense.
You say "us" like anyone reading this doesn't see through what you are doing. Avoiding the obvious, attempting to change the argument, or change the requirements, avoid all the facts against you and hang onto the extremely rare Mike Tomlins and Harbaughs.

Quote:
Now, I actually AM defending a guy with a "7 and 20 HC record and a 2-9 division record, while his teams were 8-24 while he was an OC. (that's 15-44 in his 2 primetime NFL jobs" BUT not by disputing anything you just said...simply by pointing out that he was as qualified to be a head coach as many of the head coaches that have either been successful or not.

When are you going to show me the coaches that succeeded after being bad OC's for 2 years before getting a promotion to HC?
Quote:

Blame the guy for being such a bad OC that his team's offense improved with him THEN got worse without him

They improved in his 2nd year, they weren't good in his first year. Also, they improved in the worst division in recent memory, since he left the rest of division has also vastly improved, especially on the defensive end, so it's a small wonder that they haven't improved much on offense since he left. And they were still not very good at all in his 2nd year there.
Quote:

BUT, then also give him credit for all the Eagles wins over 10 years...can't have it both ways bro
Yeah cause the QB coach has a huge impact on wins and losses. Being in charge of 1 guys mechanics and no X's and O's is pretty impressive. That's why John Ramsdell's been on the fast track to being a HC for a while... oh wait, his uncle wasn't in the NFL.
Seems like QB coaches only get a high level of prestige from WC systems. Don't ask me why, but virtually every HC I have seen that got most of his NFL experience as a QB coach was in a WC system.
Quote:
But you must know it makes absolutely no sense to think the guy was hired because his uncle was someone Mike Holmgren knew...
Yeah, he just "knew" his uncle,, it wasn't anything important. He only won a SB as Holmgren's DC and was going to be the DC in Seattle when Holmgren moved there but he passed away. I'm sure that had little to no impact on Holmgren and I'm sure it played no impact on his decision to hire his nephew to the Browns vacant HC position. Rolling Eyes
Quote:

It's a media spin to get attention...that's all bro.
WTF does this even mean? What "media spin"? And what's with all this stupid "bro" stuff? Are you like 14?

Quote:
Hell, there were plenty that never even worked as an NFL coordinator.
Like 3? Who cares?


1. You are assuming that he was hired because of his Uncle, you offered no support to your opinion. It's pretty easy to deny an opinion that has no merit.

2. You are assuming that it was Shurmur's "mediocrity" that prevented a bad offense from improving more than they did, yet you make no accounting for injuries, bad defensive play, talent issues, and plain bad luck. You furthermore failed to mention either what specifically he did wrong, or who would have done a better job given the same circumstances. All in all, it seems you just look at summary stats, like team record and offensive ranks, and assume it speaks directly to the skill level to every indivdual that you want it to. I would think you were aware that football teams are complicated machines with many moving parts.

A simple analysis of history proves that practice false, by the way:

LeBeau was the DC of the Bengals from 1984 to 1991...

In 1983, Hank Bullough was the DC and LeBeau was the DB coach...the defense was ranked #1 in yards and #6 in points...the team was 7-9

1984, LeBeau took over...the defense was ranked #16 in points and #13 in yards...the team was 8-8

1985, #26 in points and #22 in yards, team was 7-9

1986, #23 in points, #20 in yards, 10-6

1987, #24, #8, 4-11
1988, #16, #15, 12-4 (AFC Champs)
1989, #7, #15, 7-9
1990, #19, #25, 9-7
1991, #28, #28, 3-13

Pretty "mediocre" by your standards...THEN he went to the Steelers...suddenly he was the best thing since sliced bread..OR did he just have more to work with there?

Anyway, you need to learn to actually look at more than summary stats, since they are OFTEN misleading...try reading some articles about what was actually happening, instead of assuming you know, which is what you are mostly doing.

3. I gave you a list of 19 NFL head coaches (including one former). Of those 19 names, 11 of those names had 2 or less years as an OC or DC...and 6 had no experience as an OC or DC...you said "3". I try to be accurate, and I hope you also see the value in making an attempt to be accurate.

4. It seems your "ideal" criteria involve being an OC or DC for an extended period of time and 2 years is not long enough. Perhaps you mean that 3 years is long enough, if so, then I retract my statement that suggested that it was not common for HC's to follow your expected criteria, since 8 of the 19 coaches would fall into that category. However, it's rather ridiculous to think that the threshold from "inexperienced" to "many years" is crossed from the second year to the 3rd year.

If we look at the HCs with 5 or more years as an OC or DC on my list of 18 current and one former NFL head coaches...there are ZERO. So my statement that suggested that "a natural progression from position coach to OC/DC for many years, to head coach" doesn't happen very often is very true....whether you choose to believe it or not.

5. Please spare us all your oversimplification of a QB coach's role. It involves x's and o's , again, whether you believe it or not. The QB is responsible for executing the entire offense, making reads pre and post snap, changing play calls, making blocking adjustment...make a thread if you wish to actually learn the role of a QB coach.

6. The "bro" stuff is my attempt to be cordial, while your use of emoticons, questioning my age, and calling opinions "laughable" are clearly NOT an attempt to be cordial. If you feel that I am insulting you by using that term, please PM me and I promise I will not use that word with you anymore. I actually would prefer to discuss football. I hope you could afford the same courtesy.
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 44776
Location: Brooklyn, NY
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LOL THE BOB FATHER LOL
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Dropkick_pride


Joined: 18 Jan 2009
Posts: 10805
Location: C-bus
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LOL THE BOB FATHER LOL


That is pretty good. Laughing
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dropkick_pride wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LOL THE BOB FATHER LOL


That is pretty good. Laughing



Very good....but hey, doesn't that guy in the picture look like Robin Williams? Laughing
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Estonianzulu


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.


Never said his last name didn't make a difference. But then again, how do you think Nick Saban, or Jay Gruden, or Kyle Shannahan got jobs? However they did not hired Shurmur just because he was named Shurmur. Its not like Holmgren pushed the Browns to hire Mark Lovat to be his HC
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6869
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6869
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?


Hey bruce, what are you going to do if we hire Gruden as HC, Polian as GM, and then Gruden gets his brother to be our new OC?
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mistakebytehlak


Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 44776
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?


Banner signed Heckert and Shurmur's paychecks in Philadelphia (figuratively. perhaps maybe even literally)

you have no clue what you're talking about
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bruceb


Joined: 15 Dec 2006
Posts: 6869
Location: Rocky River, OH
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mistakebytehlak wrote:
bruceb wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?


Banner signed Heckert and Shurmur's paychecks in Philadelphia (figuratively. perhaps maybe even literally)

you have no clue what you're talking about


Huh? Bereft of logic.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
bruceb wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?


Banner signed Heckert and Shurmur's paychecks in Philadelphia (figuratively. perhaps maybe even literally)

you have no clue what you're talking about


Huh? Bereft of logic.


bruce.. Reid, Heckert, and Shurmur all worked in Philly together...Banner "signed" their checks...does that clear it up for you?
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bruceb


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
bruceb wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?


Banner signed Heckert and Shurmur's paychecks in Philadelphia (figuratively. perhaps maybe even literally)

you have no clue what you're talking about


Huh? Bereft of logic.


bruce.. Reid, Heckert, and Shurmur all worked in Philly together...Banner "signed" their checks...does that clear it up for you?


No.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
Posts: 2736
PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bruceb wrote:
Entropy wrote:
bruceb wrote:
mistakebytehlak wrote:
bruceb wrote:
bruceb wrote:
ReggieCamp wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Estonianzulu wrote:
Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard


So you don't think his last name had anything to do with it? I have to disagree.

With most front office decisions, we'll never know the whole story, but I've read some reports that said it was Heckert that really pushed for Shurmur, not Holmgren. Heckert was the one who worked with him in Philly.

Yeah, his uncle might have worked with Holmy, and yeah, Heckert liked him in Philly, but let's not forget the real reason Shurmur was hired.




LaMonte


This is one reason the FO is being dismantled. Wonder how much, in addition to his $8mil from Randy, Holmgren got from the BobFather for all his client signings?


Banner signed Heckert and Shurmur's paychecks in Philadelphia (figuratively. perhaps maybe even literally)

you have no clue what you're talking about


Huh? Bereft of logic.


bruce.. Reid, Heckert, and Shurmur all worked in Philly together...Banner "signed" their checks...does that clear it up for you?


No.


Ok...hmmm...did Banner "dismantle" Reid, Heckert, Childress, and Shurmur when they all worked in Philly together back in 2001?
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