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bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
Posts: 8697
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Entropy wrote:

How many head coaches in the NFL right now had ANY experience as a head coach prior to becoming a head coach for the first time? I'd say about 6 out of 32....


How many of the 32 coaches in their current positions had HCing experience before being hired into their current positions? I'd guess more than half.


Ok quit guessing then...

Chan Gailey, 2 years HC at Troy State (1983-84), 2 years HC of Birmingham Fire of the World League (1991-1992), HC at Samford for one year in 1993

Mike Shanahan, assistant HC at Florida in 1983

Leslie Frazier, 9 years HC at Trinity College (1988-1996)

Mike Smith, assistant HC at Tennessee Tech in 1998

Greg Schiano, 11 years HC at Rutgers (2001-2011)

Jim Harbaugh 3 years HC at San Diego (2004-2006), 4 years HC at Stanford (2007-2010)

THAT'S ALL!! SIX...and 2 of them only had "assistant" HC experience

How many teams that particiapted in the Superbowl had a head coach that had previous "head-coaching" experience?

TWO over the past 14 season...

2006 Colts Coach Jim Caldwell 8 years HC at Wake Forest (1993-2000)
1998 Broncos, Mike Shanahan, assistant HC at Florida in 1983

I'm sure it goes much farther back too...


Quote:
How many of the 32 coaches in their current positions had HCing experience before being hired into their current positions? I'd guess more than half.


are you even reading? unless you think BB, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Pete Carrol, etc. didn't have HC experience before being hired into their current positions.
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bungleodeon


Joined: 19 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:

TWO over the past 14 season...

2006 Colts Coach Jim Caldwell 8 years HC at Wake Forest (1993-2000)
1998 Broncos, Mike Shanahan, assistant HC at Florida in 1983

I'm sure it goes much farther back too...


LOL tom coughlin, BB, Tony Dungy... Rolling Eyes this is just pathetic.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Entropy wrote:

TWO over the past 14 season...

2006 Colts Coach Jim Caldwell 8 years HC at Wake Forest (1993-2000)
1998 Broncos, Mike Shanahan, assistant HC at Florida in 1983

I'm sure it goes much farther back too...


LOL tom coughlin, BB, Tony Dungy... Rolling Eyes this is just pathetic.


What's pathetic?

I showed you that only 6 coaches had ANY head coaching experience prior to becoming head coaches.

Why do you think so few NCAA head coaches become NFL coaches?

Do you think it's because an NFL coach's resume is not impacted very much by NCAA experience?
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:


are you even reading? unless you think BB, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Pete Carrol, etc. didn't have HC experience before being hired into their current positions.


Ok bro, you named 5 out of 32, try for 16 since you said "half"?
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joelflynn44


Joined: 13 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joelflynn44 wrote:
Dont fall into the trap bungle and dp. He will pull you into an endless post of misery.

Idea
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bungleodeon


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:


are you even reading? unless you think BB, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Pete Carrol, etc. didn't have HC experience before being hired into their current positions.


Ok bro, you named 5 out of 32, try for 16 since you said "half"?
but bro, srsly bro, gonna blow u mind broseph, 5+6 is 11 bro. im almost to my "guess" a word you aren't familiar with.
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:


are you even reading? unless you think BB, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Pete Carrol, etc. didn't have HC experience before being hired into their current positions.


Ok bro, you named 5 out of 32, try for 16 since you said "half"?
but bro, srsly bro, gonna blow u mind broseph, 5+6 is 11 bro. im almost to my "guess" a word you aren't familiar with.


can't have it both ways broham...

either you list the coaches that were NCAA HCs, OR the ones that were NFL coaches and coached a different team...

Also, 11 aint 16 Very Happy
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bungleodeon


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:


are you even reading? unless you think BB, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Pete Carrol, etc. didn't have HC experience before being hired into their current positions.


Ok bro, you named 5 out of 32, try for 16 since you said "half"?
but bro, srsly bro, gonna blow u mind broseph, 5+6 is 11 bro. im almost to my "guess" a word you aren't familiar with.


can't have it both ways broham...

either you list the coaches that were NCAA HCs, OR the ones that were NFL coaches and coached a different team...

Also, 11 aint 16 Very Happy

You're still struggling with the word guess?

It turns out there's 14 out of 32.

Now let's see how many had more than 2 years of OC experience or had HC experience... Laughing
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2012: 54 Tackles - 7 Sacks - 1 FF - 3 PD - 2 STF
2013: 36 Tackles - 5.5 Sacks -1 FF - 1 FR - 4 PD -2 STF
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skatebeanz


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Entropy wrote:
I showed you that only 6 coaches had ANY head coaching experience prior to becoming head coaches.
Think Think
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Entropy


Joined: 16 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatebeanz wrote:
Entropy wrote:
I showed you that only 6 coaches had ANY head coaching experience prior to becoming head coaches.
Think Think



Since you responded, I assume you want to know what that means and were just too lazy to either read the thread or ask....

NFL head coaches have been hired that were head coaches in the NCAA...just not very many
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:
Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:
Entropy wrote:
bungleodeon wrote:


are you even reading? unless you think BB, John Fox, Tom Coughlin, Jeff Fisher, Pete Carrol, etc. didn't have HC experience before being hired into their current positions.


Ok bro, you named 5 out of 32, try for 16 since you said "half"?
but bro, srsly bro, gonna blow u mind broseph, 5+6 is 11 bro. im almost to my "guess" a word you aren't familiar with.


can't have it both ways broham...

either you list the coaches that were NCAA HCs, OR the ones that were NFL coaches and coached a different team...

Also, 11 aint 16 Very Happy

You're still struggling with the word guess?

It turns out there's 14 out of 32.

Now let's see how many had more than 2 years of OC experience or had HC experience... Laughing


Ahhh..the 2 years of OC experience is a big deal to you huh?

Let's just talk about NFL experience before being named an NFL coach for the first time then...

What if a guy (Jon Gruden) has 3 years as an OC and only 2 years as a WR coach and another 2 years as a "offensive assistant" for a total of 7 years NFL experience (5 coaching)..is that better or worse than 2 years OC and 7 years QB coach and 3 years TE coach in the NFL (12 years coaching)?

What about only 2 years as a QB coach in the NFL and the rest NCAA experience? Is that better or worse? (Jim Harbaugh)

How about 14 years as a position coach in the NFL? Is that better or worse? (Mike Munchak)

How about a guy who was never a position coach in the NFL, but WAS an OC for 2 years? (Joe Philbin)

Maybe a guy with 9 years as a special teams coordinator and 1 as a DB coach -10 years in the NFL? (John Harbaugh)

5 years as an NFL DB coach and one as a DC? (Mike Tomlin)

9 years NFL secondary coach and 1 year as a DC? (Chuck Pagano)

6 years position coach in the NFL, 3 as an OC? (Mike Mularkey)( Norv Turner)

6 years as an assistant position coach, 3 years as a postiton coach, 1 year as a DC? (Dennis Allen)

7 years as an NFL position coach? (Tom Coughlin)

1 year position coach, 3 as OC? (Mike Shanahan)

2 years QB coach, 3 OC? (Jason Garrett)

7 years position coach? (Andy Reid)

5 years position coach, 2 years DC, 1 year assistant HC/DC? (Lovie Smith)

3 years position coach? (Greg Schiano)

7 years position coach, 3 as OC? (Ken Whisenhunt)

8 years position coach, 1 as DC? (Jeff Fisher)
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bungleodeon


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the experience is better summarized when we look at what they did in those roles. Shurmur wasn't a good OC, some guys who had similar runs at the coordiantor position, 2, 3, 4 years, were actually impressive in their runs.

I'm sure you'll come back with something about how he helped turned a bad team into a 7-9 team while "failing to report" it was in the worst division in recent memory or something. Who cares? Bottom line is you are defending a guy with a 7 and 20 HC record and a 2-9 division record, while his teams were 8-24 while he was an OC. (that's 15-44 in his 2 primetime NFL jobs)

Bottom line, he got the job because of his last name. The Browns only interviewed 3 guys for the job, 2 of them were just to comply to league rules. Holmgren was hiring his friends son, bottom line. He's been a poor coach as a HC and OC.

You're also putting wrong numbers up and ignoring certain things. Coughlin was a college HC, Fisher was a 2 year DC and an internal promotion, I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing.

Dennis allen, Jason Garrett cetianly haven't been good hires, further proving my point. Chuck P hasn't even really been a legit HC yet.

Norv turner has been a failure as a HC in both his stops. Mike Mularky was being praised league wide as an OC, something that was certainly missing from Shurmur. Whisenhunt was part of a super bowl team.

Of the 8 other coaches that I think had similar backrounds to Shurmur before getting hired to their current positions, I wouldn't be shocked to see 3-4 of them being fired at the end of the year. Maybe 1-2 that will be on the hot seat next year. For every Harbaugh and Tomlin you can find 2 dozen Shurmurs, well not really, cause most of them still got their job base on merrit, not their last name.
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2012: 54 Tackles - 7 Sacks - 1 FF - 3 PD - 2 STF
2013: 36 Tackles - 5.5 Sacks -1 FF - 1 FR - 4 PD -2 STF
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Entropy


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bungleodeon wrote:


You're also putting wrong numbers up and ignoring certain things. Coughlin was a college HC, Fisher was a 2 year DC and an internal promotion, I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing.



I think you missed the part where I said I was only reporting their NFL experience. There was a lot of stuff there, so it's an understandable mistake.

Entropy wrote:


Let's just talk about NFL experience before being named an NFL coach for the first time then...


As for Fisher, you're right he was a LB coach/DC for the Eagles in 1989 and 1990 and then the DC for the Rams in 1991, then demoted to the DB coach of the 49ers in 1992 and 1993, then the Defensive Coordinator/Interim Head Coach of the Oilers in 1994 (he replaced Pardee).

So you're also mistaken about the 2 year DC then internal hire thing.

If there is anything you question, rest assured I will check into that and give you the correct answer. But please spare us all the "I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing" nonsense.

Now, I actually AM defending a guy with a "7 and 20 HC record and a 2-9 division record, while his teams were 8-24 while he was an OC. (that's 15-44 in his 2 primetime NFL jobs" BUT not by disputing anything you just said...simply by pointing out that he was as qualified to be a head coach as many of the head coaches that have either been successful or not.

Blame the guy for being such a bad OC that his team's offense improved with him THEN got worse without him...sure...hell, even blame him for the team losing all the games they lost while ignoring the head coach and the actual players...BUT, then also give him credit for all the Eagles wins over 10 years...can't have it both ways bro

But you must know it makes absolutely no sense to think the guy was hired because his father was someone Mike Holmgren knew...that is just a cop-out to ignore the fact that his NFL resume is as good as many other head coaches.

It's a media spin to get attention...that's all bro. I even showed you that the NFL cares little about NCAA experience, or things that may seem pretty intuitive to you, like a natural progression from NFL position coach, to coordinator to head coach after many years....IT DOESN"T HAPPEN THAT WAY VERY OFTEN...read what I gave you.

How many guys on that list had 3 or less years as an OC or DC before they became a head coach? Like 17? (Fisher never made it to 4 years, by the way) Hell, there were plenty that never even worked as an NFL coordinator.

What I think you also need to know is that many of the position coaches were QB coaches...which has a good amount of prestige to it, especially if you have a 6 time pro-bowl QB that you worked with.


And yeah man, a lot of those guys are on losing teams...half the league loses every week...what do you want, all 32 teams to have winning records or the whole league to be 8-8?
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bungleodeon


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You continue to deny he got hired because of his last name. It's funny that you try and try to get away from that point, but long story short, that's all it boils down to.

If the Rams had promoted Shurmur to be a HC after being a mediocre OC it would have made a bit more sense than having the Browns going after him after being a mediocre OC.

The Rams may or may not have improved under Shurmur, I'm going to guess his offense was pretty bad if they went 1-15 in his first year there as an OC.

Quote:
like a natural progression from NFL position coach, to coordinator to head coach after many years....IT DOESN"T HAPPEN THAT WAY VERY OFTEN...read what I gave you.


It actually happens all the time. I don't understand how hard it is for you to understand since you just looked at it. I am saying I would think some of these guys might need to keep their coordinator jobs a bit longer before becoming HC's, but that's neither here nor there when they are actually excelling at their jobs, unlike Shurmur, who wasn't.

Quote:
And yeah man, a lot of those guys are on losing teams...half the league loses every week...what do you want, all 32 teams to have winning records or the whole league to be 8-8?


I said nothing about them being on losing teams, I said they were going to get fired, which usually means the owners/presidents think they are in over there head or they are continuously failing to meet expectations, generally with multiple losing seasons.

Quote:
I think you missed the part where I said I was only reporting their NFL experience. There was a lot of stuff there, so it's an understandable mistake.


I didn't miss it, I just think it's laughable watching you move the goal posts so you can attempt to score points you didn't earn. No one cares about coaches that were fired 8 years ago, that only helps my points. No one cares about what their NFL experience was when they were successful college head coaches, something I already said was part my opinion.

Quote:
Let's just talk about NFL experience before being named an NFL coach for the first time then...


Why? That was never a point made by me so you're really just arguing with some made up points that mean nothing to me. I'm pretty sure this is the definition of a strawman argument, a comment I pretty much never make around here.

Quote:
So you're also mistaken about the 2 year DC then internal hire thing.
No, I said he was an internal hire, which he was, and that he was a DC for 2 years before becoming a HC, which is true. Sorry that you failed to figure that easy point out and had to reach at more nonsense.


Quote:
If there is anything you question, rest assured I will check into that and give you the correct answer. But please spare us all the "I'm sure there's other stuff I'm missing" nonsense.
You say "us" like anyone reading this doesn't see through what you are doing. Avoiding the obvious, attempting to change the argument, or change the requirements, avoid all the facts against you and hang onto the extremely rare Mike Tomlins and Harbaughs.

Quote:
Now, I actually AM defending a guy with a "7 and 20 HC record and a 2-9 division record, while his teams were 8-24 while he was an OC. (that's 15-44 in his 2 primetime NFL jobs" BUT not by disputing anything you just said...simply by pointing out that he was as qualified to be a head coach as many of the head coaches that have either been successful or not.

When are you going to show me the coaches that succeeded after being bad OC's for 2 years before getting a promotion to HC?
Quote:

Blame the guy for being such a bad OC that his team's offense improved with him THEN got worse without him

They improved in his 2nd year, they weren't good in his first year. Also, they improved in the worst division in recent memory, since he left the rest of division has also vastly improved, especially on the defensive end, so it's a small wonder that they haven't improved much on offense since he left. And they were still not very good at all in his 2nd year there.
Quote:

BUT, then also give him credit for all the Eagles wins over 10 years...can't have it both ways bro
Yeah cause the QB coach has a huge impact on wins and losses. Being in charge of 1 guys mechanics and no X's and O's is pretty impressive. That's why John Ramsdell's been on the fast track to being a HC for a while... oh wait, his uncle wasn't in the NFL.
Seems like QB coaches only get a high level of prestige from WC systems. Don't ask me why, but virtually every HC I have seen that got most of his NFL experience as a QB coach was in a WC system.
Quote:
But you must know it makes absolutely no sense to think the guy was hired because his uncle was someone Mike Holmgren knew...
Yeah, he just "knew" his uncle,, it wasn't anything important. He only won a SB as Holmgren's DC and was going to be the DC in Seattle when Holmgren moved there but he passed away. I'm sure that had little to no impact on Holmgren and I'm sure it played no impact on his decision to hire his nephew to the Browns vacant HC position. Rolling Eyes
Quote:

It's a media spin to get attention...that's all bro.
WTF does this even mean? What "media spin"? And what's with all this stupid "bro" stuff? Are you like 14?

Quote:
Hell, there were plenty that never even worked as an NFL coordinator.
Like 3? Who cares?
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2011: 55 Tackles - 8.5 Sacks - 5 FF - 1 FR - 2 PD - 7 STF
2012: 54 Tackles - 7 Sacks - 1 FF - 3 PD - 2 STF
2013: 36 Tackles - 5.5 Sacks -1 FF - 1 FR - 4 PD -2 STF
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Estonianzulu


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shurmur was not brought in because he was an offensive mastermind. He was brought in because of the work he helped do with Donovan McNabb and Sam Bradford to try and develop a Quarterback.

So far his success is so-so in that regard
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