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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14168
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:

More of this. Im sick of the talent excuse. Coaches are not doing a good job preparing the team point blank. AJ Green wide open. I dont mind Green beating somebody but it wasnt a Raider within 15 yards. WTF. We should not be this awful in all three phases of the game.


Yeah, i give up. Our coaches aren't to blame, there's nothing they can do with the players they have, nothing is their fault. They're gonna be great just because we want them to be.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Just guessing Tarver could take over the 9ers defense and look formidable. Why? TALENT


Conflict of interest with Harbaugh. Your argument is invalid.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
bitty wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:

So true. Some people in here are acting like we had a good D last year. We allowed 27 PPG in 2011 (29th in the NFL), and now we are allowing 32 PPG. Given the fact that we cut our only pass rusher, our top (regardless of how you rate him) CB, Kelly and Seymour have clearly lost a step, and we have been rolling with A FS, Joselio Hanson, Pat Lee at CB for much of the season, it really isnt a surprise our D looks so awful.


No one is acting like our D was good last year. Our DC last year was hired from the UFL and was an incompetent puppet. Our current staff is getting worse results than he did. It fills me with so much confidence.

Btw, we've lost the last 3 games by more than 3 TDs. First time in franchise history. Why do i get the feeling someone's gonna tell me it was to be expected as well?


bitty was saying that whether its offense or defense, our talent didnt drop off much. Our current staff is getting worse results (not by much), with much, much worse personnel. I'm sorry, but I dont think - LeBeau or Rex Ryan could step in as DC here and turn this D around right now. We simply lack talent on the defensive side of the ball. You can draw up great plays and schemes, but if you have below average players, you'll get below average results.



It's the little things that I have a problem with. Why are the D-backs lining up wrong. It's third and five and the D-backs are given the WRs a ten yard cushion. Why is the other teams number one WR not double-team? Why does the coach blitz a Saftey from ten yards away? why do the D- Backs not bump at the LOS? How does the chemistry between the QB and the WRs get worse as the season goes on.

These are not talent issues.


More of this. Im sick of the talent excuse. Coaches are not doing a good job preparing the team point blank. AJ Green wide open. I dont mind Green beating somebody but it wasnt a Raider within 15 yards. WTF. We should not be this awful in all three phases of the game.


So it's the coaches fault a player can't execute his assignment?

Let's pretend Tillman is the Raiders CB. You think he matches up with Green and leaves him wide open? Me neither.

Point to 1 player on this team who would start for the Bears or 9ers defense. There isn't one.

Just guessing Tarver could take over the 9ers defense and look formidable. Why? TALENT


So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually our scoring defense has been getting better over the last few games.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21406
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
Actually our scoring defense has been getting better over the last few games.


Only cause everybody aint an ahole like that harbaugh and We wasnt a threat in our last two games offensively so teams tone it down. Saints and Bengals could have scored 50 if their coaches tried to.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3634
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:

So true. Some people in here are acting like we had a good D last year. We allowed 27 PPG in 2011 (29th in the NFL), and now we are allowing 32 PPG. Given the fact that we cut our only pass rusher, our top (regardless of how you rate him) CB, Kelly and Seymour have clearly lost a step, and we have been rolling with A FS, Joselio Hanson, Pat Lee at CB for much of the season, it really isnt a surprise our D looks so awful.


No one is acting like our D was good last year. Our DC last year was hired from the UFL and was an incompetent puppet. Our current staff is getting worse results than he did. It fills me with so much confidence.

Btw, we've lost the last 3 games by more than 3 TDs. First time in franchise history. Why do i get the feeling someone's gonna tell me it was to be expected as well?


bitty was saying that whether its offense or defense, our talent didnt drop off much. Our current staff is getting worse results (not by much), with much, much worse personnel. I'm sorry, but I dont think - LeBeau or Rex Ryan could step in as DC here and turn this D around right now. We simply lack talent on the defensive side of the ball. You can draw up great plays and schemes, but if you have below average players, you'll get below average results.



It's the little things that I have a problem with. Why are the D-backs lining up wrong. It's third and five and the D-backs are given the WRs a ten yard cushion. Why is the other teams number one WR not double-team? Why does the coach blitz a Saftey from ten yards away? why do the D- Backs not bump at the LOS? How does the chemistry between the QB and the WRs get worse as the season goes on.

These are not talent issues.


You serious with this?

The CBs do play bump and run occasion. Problem, none of them are good enough and get beat quickly.

AJ Green had 2 big catches, otherwise was doubled most the game. On a 3rd and long in the 4th he punked 2 defenders in coverage on him. Double teamed, didn't matter. Of course, there are usually 2-3 WRs running open on any play. You can't double team them all.

Teams blitz safeties from that depth every weekend. The difference is, CB coverage and the ability to get there.

Coaching is part of the issue, but you have to have players who can execute. You can match Giordano and Huff up on a teams #1 and they will lose the battle. That assuming the QB doesn't have an easy completion on some other scrub running free.


You're right it is combination of coaching and talent.
If the Raiders don't have the talent to make a play work and the coach keeps calling it who's fault is it?
The coach's have to fix what they can that includes right lining up correctly and stop calling plays that don't work
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22394
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:

So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.


Well a seasoned veteran DC who has knows situations, tendencies, etc can do more with less.

A rookie DC learning on the fly w/ poor personnel is another story.

Personally, I thought McKenzie should have hired a seasoned HC who could come in and not be learning on the job with a poor team.

His vision was too grow w/ a young coach. That said, hopefully he sees that his young HC needs some stability around him. Tarver, Knapp were poor choices. One w/ no experience and the other limited success in the league.

A young coach IMO needs stable coordinators around him. So the question is do you endure and hope the coaches grow w/ the talent or mix it up and give the young HC some help.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3634
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
dante9876 wrote:

So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.


Well a seasoned veteran DC who has knows situations, tendencies, etc can do more with less.

A rookie DC learning on the fly w/ poor personnel is another story.

Personally, I thought McKenzie should have hired a seasoned HC who could come in and not be learning on the job with a poor team.

His vision was too grow w/ a young coach. That said, hopefully he sees that his young HC needs some stability around him. Tarver, Knapp were poor choices. One w/ no experience and the other limited success in the league.

A young coach IMO needs stable coordinators around him. So the question is do you endure and hope the coaches grow w/ the talent or mix it up and give the young HC some help.



I wanted Gruden or Marty Schottenheimer
Marty has a great eye for talent and is a disciplinarian. He could rebuild the Raiders fast.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22394
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
dante9876 wrote:

So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.


Well a seasoned veteran DC who has knows situations, tendencies, etc can do more with less.

A rookie DC learning on the fly w/ poor personnel is another story.

Personally, I thought McKenzie should have hired a seasoned HC who could come in and not be learning on the job with a poor team.

His vision was too grow w/ a young coach. That said, hopefully he sees that his young HC needs some stability around him. Tarver, Knapp were poor choices. One w/ no experience and the other limited success in the league.

A young coach IMO needs stable coordinators around him. So the question is do you endure and hope the coaches grow w/ the talent or mix it up and give the young HC some help.



I wanted Gruden or Marty Schottenheimer
Marty has a great eye for talent and is a disciplinarian. He could rebuild the Raiders fast.


Please.... then when Marty doesn't win 10 games in his first season you'll be crying for Marty-ball to end.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14168
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:

I wanted Gruden or Marty Schottenheimer
Marty has a great eye for talent and is a disciplinarian. He could rebuild the Raiders fast.


The day Marty Schottenheimer becomes the Raiders HC, i'll be a Chiefs fan.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3634
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
dante9876 wrote:

So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.


Well a seasoned veteran DC who has knows situations, tendencies, etc can do more with less.

A rookie DC learning on the fly w/ poor personnel is another story.

Personally, I thought McKenzie should have hired a seasoned HC who could come in and not be learning on the job with a poor team.

His vision was too grow w/ a young coach. That said, hopefully he sees that his young HC needs some stability around him. Tarver, Knapp were poor choices. One w/ no experience and the other limited success in the league.

A young coach IMO needs stable coordinators around him. So the question is do you endure and hope the coaches grow w/ the talent or mix it up and give the young HC some help.



I wanted Gruden or Marty Schottenheimer
Marty has a great eye for talent and is a disciplinarian. He could rebuild the Raiders fast.


Please.... then when Marty doesn't win 10 games in his first season you'll be crying for Marty-ball to end.


Marty had 2 losing seasons out of 20.
It's quite amazing the man was good.
My problem with Allen is that he is a rookie HC with no experience and I just don't like the zone blocking.
Marty plays smash mouth football.

Team Year Regular Season Post Season
Won Lost Ties Win % Finish Won Lost Win % Result
CLE 1984 4 4 0 .500 3rd in AFC Central - - - -
CLE 1985 8 8 0 .500 1st in AFC Central 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in Divisional Game.
CLE 1986 12 4 0 .750 1st in AFC Central 1 1 .500 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Championship Game.
CLE 1987 10 5 0 .667 1st in AFC Central 1 1 .500 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Championship Game.
CLE 1988 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC Central 0 1 .000 Lost to Houston Oilers in AFC Wild-Card Game.
CLE Total 44 27 0 .620 2 4 .333
KC 1989 8 7 1 .533 2nd in AFC West - - - -
KC 1990 11 5 0 .688 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in Wild Card Game.
KC 1991 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC West 1 1 .500 Lost to Buffalo Bills in Divisional Game.
KC 1992 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to San Diego Chargers in Wild Card Game.
KC 1993 11 5 0 .688 1st in AFC West 2 1 .667 Lost to Buffalo Bills in AFC Championship.
KC 1994 9 7 0 .563 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in AFC Wild-Card Game.
KC 1995 13 3 0 .813 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Indianapolis Colts in AFC Divisional Game.
KC 1996 9 7 0 .563 2nd in AFC West - - - -
KC 1997 13 3 0 .813 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Divisional Game.
KC 1998 7 9 0 .438 4th in AFC West - - - -
KC Total 101 58 1 .635 3 7 .300
WAS 2001 8 8 0 .500 2nd in NFC East - - - -
WAS Total 8 8 0 .500 - - - -
SD 2002 8 8 0 .500 3rd in AFC West - - - -
SD 2003 4 12 0 .250 4th in AFC West - - - -
SD 2004 12 4 0 .750 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to New York Jets in AFC Wild-Card Game.
SD 2005 9 7 0 .563 3rd in AFC West - - - -
SD 2006 14 2 0 .875 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to New England Patriots in AFC Divisional Game.
SD Total 47 33 0 .588 0 2 .000
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ZoomWaffle


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand the frustration of seeing our CBs lined up way off the WRs, but I'm willing to bet thats more compensation than anything. I could be completely wrong, but here is my reasoning: We have not a single pass rusher or decent cover safety to help over the top. If you bring your CBs up closer, they are going to get burned because you know neither Branch nor Giordano are gonna provide help over the top- Joselio Hanson < almost any WR. With nobody getting in the QB's face, and no real help at S, its better to play it safe and keep the WRs in front of you, rather than giving them a chance to go deep. Get an elite pass rusher or a couple good DBs, and it really opens up your playcalling options. Again, thats just my guess.
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Chali21


Joined: 07 Feb 2007
Posts: 3018
Location: Cali
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
dante9876 wrote:

So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.


Well a seasoned veteran DC who has knows situations, tendencies, etc can do more with less.

A rookie DC learning on the fly w/ poor personnel is another story.

Personally, I thought McKenzie should have hired a seasoned HC who could come in and not be learning on the job with a poor team.

His vision was too grow w/ a young coach. That said, hopefully he sees that his young HC needs some stability around him. Tarver, Knapp were poor choices. One w/ no experience and the other limited success in the league.

A young coach IMO needs stable coordinators around him. So the question is do you endure and hope the coaches grow w/ the talent or mix it up and give the young HC some help.



I wanted Gruden or Marty Schottenheimer
Marty has a great eye for talent and is a disciplinarian. He could rebuild the Raiders fast.


Please.... then when Marty doesn't win 10 games in his first season you'll be crying for Marty-ball to end.


Marty had 2 losing seasons out of 20.
It's quite amazing the man was good.
My problem with Allen is that he is a rookie HC with no experience and I just don't like the zone blocking.
Marty plays smash mouth football.

Team Year Regular Season Post Season
Won Lost Ties Win % Finish Won Lost Win % Result
CLE 1984 4 4 0 .500 3rd in AFC Central - - - -
CLE 1985 8 8 0 .500 1st in AFC Central 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in Divisional Game.
CLE 1986 12 4 0 .750 1st in AFC Central 1 1 .500 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Championship Game.
CLE 1987 10 5 0 .667 1st in AFC Central 1 1 .500 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Championship Game.
CLE 1988 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC Central 0 1 .000 Lost to Houston Oilers in AFC Wild-Card Game.
CLE Total 44 27 0 .620 2 4 .333
KC 1989 8 7 1 .533 2nd in AFC West - - - -
KC 1990 11 5 0 .688 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in Wild Card Game.
KC 1991 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC West 1 1 .500 Lost to Buffalo Bills in Divisional Game.
KC 1992 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to San Diego Chargers in Wild Card Game.
KC 1993 11 5 0 .688 1st in AFC West 2 1 .667 Lost to Buffalo Bills in AFC Championship.
KC 1994 9 7 0 .563 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in AFC Wild-Card Game.
KC 1995 13 3 0 .813 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Indianapolis Colts in AFC Divisional Game.
KC 1996 9 7 0 .563 2nd in AFC West - - - -
KC 1997 13 3 0 .813 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Divisional Game.
KC 1998 7 9 0 .438 4th in AFC West - - - -
KC Total 101 58 1 .635 3 7 .300
WAS 2001 8 8 0 .500 2nd in NFC East - - - -
WAS Total 8 8 0 .500 - - - -
SD 2002 8 8 0 .500 3rd in AFC West - - - -
SD 2003 4 12 0 .250 4th in AFC West - - - -
SD 2004 12 4 0 .750 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to New York Jets in AFC Wild-Card Game.
SD 2005 9 7 0 .563 3rd in AFC West - - - -
SD 2006 14 2 0 .875 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to New England Patriots in AFC Divisional Game.
SD Total 47 33 0 .588 0 2 .000


What happens when McFadden gets hurt?
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3634
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
dante9876 wrote:

So your saying that Ryan or Nolan or Lebeau wouldnt make this defense any better. Also would the defenses be as good under Tarver. I dont believe that? Is there some sort of evidence that tells me this. My evidence is that our whole team has regressed through the season, my evidence is our games being over before halftime. My evidence is me seeing teams with lack of talent still compete while ours is still on the plane until 2 minutes left of the second quarter.

Nobody is saying we thought the team would be great good or even average. But this team is straight awful. Beyond awful. Coaches deserve some blame for that.


Well a seasoned veteran DC who has knows situations, tendencies, etc can do more with less.

A rookie DC learning on the fly w/ poor personnel is another story.

Personally, I thought McKenzie should have hired a seasoned HC who could come in and not be learning on the job with a poor team.

His vision was too grow w/ a young coach. That said, hopefully he sees that his young HC needs some stability around him. Tarver, Knapp were poor choices. One w/ no experience and the other limited success in the league.

A young coach IMO needs stable coordinators around him. So the question is do you endure and hope the coaches grow w/ the talent or mix it up and give the young HC some help.



I wanted Gruden or Marty Schottenheimer
Marty has a great eye for talent and is a disciplinarian. He could rebuild the Raiders fast.


Please.... then when Marty doesn't win 10 games in his first season you'll be crying for Marty-ball to end.


Marty had 2 losing seasons out of 20.
It's quite amazing the man was good.
My problem with Allen is that he is a rookie HC with no experience and I just don't like the zone blocking.
Marty plays smash mouth football.

Team Year Regular Season Post Season
Won Lost Ties Win % Finish Won Lost Win % Result
CLE 1984 4 4 0 .500 3rd in AFC Central - - - -
CLE 1985 8 8 0 .500 1st in AFC Central 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in Divisional Game.
CLE 1986 12 4 0 .750 1st in AFC Central 1 1 .500 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Championship Game.
CLE 1987 10 5 0 .667 1st in AFC Central 1 1 .500 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Championship Game.
CLE 1988 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC Central 0 1 .000 Lost to Houston Oilers in AFC Wild-Card Game.
CLE Total 44 27 0 .620 2 4 .333
KC 1989 8 7 1 .533 2nd in AFC West - - - -
KC 1990 11 5 0 .688 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in Wild Card Game.
KC 1991 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC West 1 1 .500 Lost to Buffalo Bills in Divisional Game.
KC 1992 10 6 0 .625 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to San Diego Chargers in Wild Card Game.
KC 1993 11 5 0 .688 1st in AFC West 2 1 .667 Lost to Buffalo Bills in AFC Championship.
KC 1994 9 7 0 .563 2nd in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Miami Dolphins in AFC Wild-Card Game.
KC 1995 13 3 0 .813 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Indianapolis Colts in AFC Divisional Game.
KC 1996 9 7 0 .563 2nd in AFC West - - - -
KC 1997 13 3 0 .813 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to Denver Broncos in AFC Divisional Game.
KC 1998 7 9 0 .438 4th in AFC West - - - -
KC Total 101 58 1 .635 3 7 .300
WAS 2001 8 8 0 .500 2nd in NFC East - - - -
WAS Total 8 8 0 .500 - - - -
SD 2002 8 8 0 .500 3rd in AFC West - - - -
SD 2003 4 12 0 .250 4th in AFC West - - - -
SD 2004 12 4 0 .750 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to New York Jets in AFC Wild-Card Game.
SD 2005 9 7 0 .563 3rd in AFC West - - - -
SD 2006 14 2 0 .875 1st in AFC West 0 1 .000 Lost to New England Patriots in AFC Divisional Game.
SD Total 47 33 0 .588 0 2 .000


What happens when McFadden gets hurt?


Reece get the ball.
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