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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3643
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a post I read on another site it hit the nail on the head.

The Mack Says:
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 am

You guys kill me, its the recievers fault, its Dmac fault, its carson, its kelly, its branch,blah blah blah. You mean to tell me every player on this team is struggling whether its offense or defense they’ve all just mysteriously forgotten how to play at the same time even though they were just fine the previous year after some players were even in the conversation for pro bowl considerations. 1 or 2 players lagging off ok but the whole dam team dropping off in unison? ?? There’s a common denominator folks and thats coaching. Point blank! Plain and simple.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When we got rid of Hue Jackson, his offense went with him. While I agree that our current OC is crap, we have to be patient with the new offense that the team implemented. When a coach is hired late in the process he has to go with a known commodity from the scraps. If we wanted better Mark Davis should have hired Reggie McKenzie sooner and Reggie should have hired Allen sooner. But the norm is to wait til the season is over and do your interviews at the offseason events. So be it. You get what you get.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
This is a post I read on another site it hit the nail on the head.

The Mack Says:
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 am

You guys kill me, its the recievers fault, its Dmac fault, its carson, its kelly, its branch,blah blah blah. You mean to tell me every player on this team is struggling whether its offense or defense they’ve all just mysteriously forgotten how to play at the same time even though they were just fine the previous year after some players were even in the conversation for pro bowl considerations. 1 or 2 players lagging off ok but the whole dam team dropping off in unison? ?? There’s a common denominator folks and thats coaching. Point blank! Plain and simple.


Aside from Branch and Kelly, no one on the D has really regressed. It's just not a very talented unit. Without a pass rush, your D is going to get exposed.
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Roninho


Joined: 10 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
khodder wrote:
It seems that in the current NFL that everyone wants instant success, cellar to ceiling in one offseason. It is simply not that easy. Sure some teams can do it, but they often already have 90% of what they need in place.

The knowledge base that Reggie McKenzie has is going to stand him in good stead and there is a reason he was so highly sought after to be a general manager.

Dennis Allen has flown under the radar and the jury really still has no information to even deliberate over yet.

Time and patience is the key in the NFL. Building a franchise from the ground up is a tough job, it does not happen overnight.


Can we make this the intro to the thread when you log in please? Like a service agreement.... you have to click 'I agree' before you start posting here?

The Raiders literally have 10% of what a good team needs right now. I thought long and hard about that number, and 10% is about right. On a 53 man roster, that's essentially saying 5 guys are worth keeping which seems about right.

Veldheer, Wizniewski, Ford, Moore, DHB, Houston and Burris are all on their rookie deal and have time left. I'm not sure what the new contract for Reece is worth but he's a keeper.

Bryant, Myers, Wheeler and Shaughnessy are out of contract this year, if they don't overask they are worthy of retaining imo.

All other are simply not good enough or overpaid compared to what they perform or due to injury concerns.

So that is 8 under contract worth keeping, and 4 others if they don't overprice themselves. Huff, McFadden and Branch would be keepers if they would take a paycut. That is +- 15 total players without any starplayers or differencemakers. Just guys who could start for at least a few other nfl teams.

So imo more then 10%, but still a very weak roster.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10890
Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
bitty wrote:
This is a post I read on another site it hit the nail on the head.

The Mack Says:
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 am

You guys kill me, its the recievers fault, its Dmac fault, its carson, its kelly, its branch,blah blah blah. You mean to tell me every player on this team is struggling whether its offense or defense they’ve all just mysteriously forgotten how to play at the same time even though they were just fine the previous year after some players were even in the conversation for pro bowl considerations. 1 or 2 players lagging off ok but the whole dam team dropping off in unison? ?? There’s a common denominator folks and thats coaching. Point blank! Plain and simple.


Aside from Branch and Kelly, no one on the D has really regressed. It's just not a very talented unit. Without a pass rush, your D is going to get exposed.


And with no NFL calibur CB's and the worst starting FS in the league, your pass rush is getting NO HELP at all.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roninho wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
khodder wrote:
It seems that in the current NFL that everyone wants instant success, cellar to ceiling in one offseason. It is simply not that easy. Sure some teams can do it, but they often already have 90% of what they need in place.

The knowledge base that Reggie McKenzie has is going to stand him in good stead and there is a reason he was so highly sought after to be a general manager.

Dennis Allen has flown under the radar and the jury really still has no information to even deliberate over yet.

Time and patience is the key in the NFL. Building a franchise from the ground up is a tough job, it does not happen overnight.


Can we make this the intro to the thread when you log in please? Like a service agreement.... you have to click 'I agree' before you start posting here?

The Raiders literally have 10% of what a good team needs right now. I thought long and hard about that number, and 10% is about right. On a 53 man roster, that's essentially saying 5 guys are worth keeping which seems about right.

Veldheer, Wizniewski, Ford, Moore, DHB, Houston and Burris are all on their rookie deal and have time left. I'm not sure what the new contract for Reece is worth but he's a keeper.

Bryant, Myers, Wheeler and Shaughnessy are out of contract this year, if they don't overask they are worthy of retaining imo.

All other are simply not good enough or overpaid compared to what they perform or due to injury concerns.

So that is 8 under contract worth keeping, and 4 others if they don't overprice themselves. Huff, McFadden and Branch would be keepers if they would take a paycut. That is +- 15 total players without any starplayers or differencemakers. Just guys who could start for at least a few other nfl teams.

So imo more then 10%, but still a very weak roster.


To clarify. I'm saying that 90% of the roster could be replaced and wouldn't be missed. Contracts aside. Purely based on talent, it's so limited only 10% are talented enough to consider keeping around.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Darkness wrote:
bitty wrote:
This is a post I read on another site it hit the nail on the head.

The Mack Says:
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 am

You guys kill me, its the recievers fault, its Dmac fault, its carson, its kelly, its branch,blah blah blah. You mean to tell me every player on this team is struggling whether its offense or defense they’ve all just mysteriously forgotten how to play at the same time even though they were just fine the previous year after some players were even in the conversation for pro bowl considerations. 1 or 2 players lagging off ok but the whole dam team dropping off in unison? ?? There’s a common denominator folks and thats coaching. Point blank! Plain and simple.


Aside from Branch and Kelly, no one on the D has really regressed. It's just not a very talented unit. Without a pass rush, your D is going to get exposed.


And with no NFL calibur CB's and the worst starting FS in the league, your pass rush is getting NO HELP at all.


I think Huff, Spencer and Bartel could be serviceable, but you have to help them out. QBs are getting no pressure and have all day to find an open WR.

Giordano is bad. A better FS would be nice.
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 5364
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Darkness wrote:
bitty wrote:
This is a post I read on another site it hit the nail on the head.

The Mack Says:
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 am

You guys kill me, its the recievers fault, its Dmac fault, its carson, its kelly, its branch,blah blah blah. You mean to tell me every player on this team is struggling whether its offense or defense they’ve all just mysteriously forgotten how to play at the same time even though they were just fine the previous year after some players were even in the conversation for pro bowl considerations. 1 or 2 players lagging off ok but the whole dam team dropping off in unison? ?? There’s a common denominator folks and thats coaching. Point blank! Plain and simple.


Aside from Branch and Kelly, no one on the D has really regressed. It's just not a very talented unit. Without a pass rush, your D is going to get exposed.


And with no NFL calibur CB's and the worst starting FS in the league, your pass rush is getting NO HELP at all.


So true. Some people in here are acting like we had a good D last year. We allowed 27 PPG in 2011 (29th in the NFL), and now we are allowing 32 PPG. Given the fact that we cut our only pass rusher, our top (regardless of how you rate him) CB, Kelly and Seymour have clearly lost a step, and we have been rolling with A FS, Joselio Hanson, Pat Lee at CB for much of the season, it really isnt a surprise our D looks so awful.

I would also like to add that, while we are allowing 5 more points a game, we are allowing less pass and rush yards per game than we did last year. Our penalties have also dropped from over 10/game (Last in NFL) to 6 a game (13th in NFL). You arent going to see improvement across the board at first- its gonna come gradually, even more so when you have one of the least-talented rosters in the NFL. Maybe the only improvement we see this year is penalties (I'd expect everyone to be excited for that), but with some continuity and cleaning out of the roster, we may see an improvement next year in run stopping, or turnovers, or run blocking. Things are changing for the better in Oakland, but a complete turnaround is something that takes time.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 14214
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ZoomWaffle wrote:

So true. Some people in here are acting like we had a good D last year. We allowed 27 PPG in 2011 (29th in the NFL), and now we are allowing 32 PPG. Given the fact that we cut our only pass rusher, our top (regardless of how you rate him) CB, Kelly and Seymour have clearly lost a step, and we have been rolling with A FS, Joselio Hanson, Pat Lee at CB for much of the season, it really isnt a surprise our D looks so awful.


No one is acting like our D was good last year. Our DC last year was hired from the UFL and was an incompetent puppet. Our current staff is getting worse results than he did. It fills me with so much confidence.

Btw, we've lost the last 3 games by more than 3 TDs. First time in franchise history. Why do i get the feeling someone's gonna tell me it was to be expected as well?
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flanker40


Joined: 25 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey I rarely respond here but always read.

I totally agree with the poster's statement that this is all about patience. Take a step back and look at this team.

Before any hires were made the defense was void of talent, the run defense was that our de's were run stuffers and our dts were pass rushers. We cut the overpaid underperforming secondary bums and replaced them with cbs from the sabermetric bible. Our lbs were either new (burris wheeler) or another overpaid underperforming player (romac).

And thats just the defense.

If you look at the offense it was built thru one man, mcfadden. He went down last year and hue made a ballsy move to save his job by trading for palmer. It looked like a better offense but there were times it didnt show up.

Now when you account for the hires.

Reggie was a highly sought after GM but hes still a rookie gm. He came from green bay and someone posted that article about the similarities between us and them and it was not an overnight process and take into account how much crappier we are when he took over.

DA is a rookie hc that is inexperienced but he will grow with time. Hes fixing penalties already and thats just the start. he needs time. well i'll admit i hate knapp, the offense he wants to run can work, just look at hou and early 2000s den. but this also takes time if you look at kubiaks tenure he was on the hot seat.

and tarver is a bright young mind running a D he doesnt normally run but is once again a rookie.

when you take into account all of this, rookie coaches across the board (minus knapp) and also compare to where they came from (green bay and ZBS) anyone thinking that we would contend this year was on something. the team has to build thru the draft thru the trenches bc there is little to no talent on D and average talent on O with a system that only 2 or 3 linemen are suited for (altho i think wiz and veld at RT can pick it up) and a rb that is not meant for the ZBS.

this will take yearS not just one or two. this roster needs to be gutted and built from the ground up. we are worse than an expansion team bc we are in cap hell with overpaid underperforming players
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early43


Joined: 06 Feb 2010
Posts: 1103
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My biggest fear is Allen and McK being patience with Knapp... IMO, Allen is setting himself up for failure if he's going to hitch his wagons to Knapp as OC moving forward.

Young, old, aggressive, conservative... I really dont care what kind of OC we get as long as it isnt Knapp next year. I cant think of another OC in the league who has a longer track record of being terrible and still operating as a OC. The direction he has taken this offense is honestly laughable. It took injuries to our RB's for him to finally get Reece involved... this alone just blows my mind. If my 5 yr old nephew knew that Reece was one of the Raiders better players, how does an NFL OC not??

Ok, my weekly anit-Knapp rant is done.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
Posts: 3643
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget about zone blocking. The NFL is talking about banning cut blocks (which in my opinion they should).Plus the Raiders just don't have the personal. Should the Raiders change the roster for something that could be illegal in a year or two.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10890
Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Darkness wrote:
bitty wrote:
This is a post I read on another site it hit the nail on the head.

The Mack Says:
November 26th, 2012 at 12:11 am

You guys kill me, its the recievers fault, its Dmac fault, its carson, its kelly, its branch,blah blah blah. You mean to tell me every player on this team is struggling whether its offense or defense they’ve all just mysteriously forgotten how to play at the same time even though they were just fine the previous year after some players were even in the conversation for pro bowl considerations. 1 or 2 players lagging off ok but the whole dam team dropping off in unison? ?? There’s a common denominator folks and thats coaching. Point blank! Plain and simple.


Aside from Branch and Kelly, no one on the D has really regressed. It's just not a very talented unit. Without a pass rush, your D is going to get exposed.


And with no NFL calibur CB's and the worst starting FS in the league, your pass rush is getting NO HELP at all.


I think Huff, Spencer and Bartel could be serviceable, but you have to help them out. QBs are getting no pressure and have all day to find an open WR.

Giordano is bad. A better FS would be nice.


Yeah but those guys have to stay healthy. That was the knock coming in. We gave them the benefit of the doubt but they disappointed us.
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

early43 wrote:
My biggest fear is Allen and McK being patience with Knapp... IMO, Allen is setting himself up for failure if he's going to hitch his wagons to Knapp as OC moving forward.

Young, old, aggressive, conservative... I really dont care what kind of OC we get as long as it isnt Knapp next year. I cant think of another OC in the league who has a longer track record of being terrible and still operating as a OC. The direction he has taken this offense is honestly laughable. It took injuries to our RB's for him to finally get Reece involved... this alone just blows my mind. If my 5 yr old nephew knew that Reece was one of the Raiders better players, how does an NFL OC not??

Ok, my weekly anit-Knapp rant is done.


It's pretty obvious the main reason Knapp ended up as our OC was his connection to Allen from their days in Atlanta. If we are to hire a new OC, i think McKenzie has to be more involved in the process. Allen just isn't connected to enough coaches in this league yet. He's taking his advices from Dan Reeves who has been out of the league for a decade. It's normal for a young guy like him to be in this situation but he needs help from our GM.
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early43


Joined: 06 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oakdb36 wrote:
early43 wrote:
My biggest fear is Allen and McK being patience with Knapp... IMO, Allen is setting himself up for failure if he's going to hitch his wagons to Knapp as OC moving forward.

Young, old, aggressive, conservative... I really dont care what kind of OC we get as long as it isnt Knapp next year. I cant think of another OC in the league who has a longer track record of being terrible and still operating as a OC. The direction he has taken this offense is honestly laughable. It took injuries to our RB's for him to finally get Reece involved... this alone just blows my mind. If my 5 yr old nephew knew that Reece was one of the Raiders better players, how does an NFL OC not??

Ok, my weekly anit-Knapp rant is done.


It's pretty obvious the main reason Knapp ended up as our OC was his connection to Allen from their days in Atlanta. If we are to hire a new OC, i think McKenzie has to be more involved in the process. Allen just isn't connected to enough coaches in this league yet. He's taking his advices from Dan Reeves who has been out of the league for a decade. It's normal for a young guy like him to be in this situation but he needs help from our GM.


Im hoping not only McK, but also Mark Davis to a certain extent. Pressure from the top two should be enough to drop the ax on Knapp... and that would be addition by subtraction.
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