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Carson Palmer going forward
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


Not the worst option based on what I have seen. But if anyone thinks the move is a key to playoff wins they're cracked.

If we really need some dough, it's doable. Will we need that dough? Very doubtful, if expected overpriced players see the door.. If anything, considering money will probably be available to a greater degree than we would spend it, I'd be totally in favor of adding Moore as Palmer's backup, with a quick hook in mind. I think nothing of Leinart, and also think a guy like Moore throwing the ball for us won't make us a better team. But hey, why not some pressure from the backup. Leinart is incapable of pressing Palmer at all. And Pryor might be able to press Palmer for PT, but it's not as a passer. The entire ofensive complexion would have to change for Pryor to even have a chance of success.


Wasn't the whole Palmer argument generally centered around franchise QB, and playoff wins and such? That he couldn't get us over that hump? Well noone has to worry about that, we're not even close for so many reasons.


That's the shame in it. Hue went desperate trying to get to the playoffs with a bad team (mainly defense) on the Palmer trade.

This team isn't a playoff team. Won't be for 3 years and that's assuming some really really good offseason moves.

The part that sucks is, it makes a ton of sense to pair the young players on this team with a young QB and let them work together. But with limited draft picks, do you have that luxury?

Too many issues, not enough resources to make a dent.


This is precisely what most of the kncuckleheads in here don't get.

It's not about anyone being so damn enamored with Palmer. It's about what the hell will you do with his salary money if you cut him? Why do we need to cut him when there's plenty of money ready to be cut elsewhere from guys contribute next to nothing. It's about the fact that you can't rebuild half a roster, and replace your QB, all in one offseason, with 5 draft picks. It's about replacing Palmer with someone better, not just someone else.

Most guys in here just don't get that you rebuild a team in part by trimming the worst first. And replacing the worst parts first, or at least by BPA in your best opportunities to do so. And that one offseason cannot reshape a decimated roster like ours from garbage to playoffs, as if somehow the rest of the league will stand pat in the draft and free agency while they let us have infinite choices and time to pick and choose whoever we want letting them have the scraps.

Most fans do not have a sense of reality about this. What do we gain by cutting Palmer if we cannot replace him with someone significantly better.

Wake up people, we are not the Packers with Favre and Rodgers. Realesing our starting QB is neither a luxury we have, nor is it one of the more important steps to recovery.


OMG. You just dont understand. We cant release all the bad parts right now. We just cant. We cant release or cut all the over paid bad players on our team. So what do you do, you cut or trade the guys you can. The ones who arent apart of the future. The ones who will cost the least against cap and dead money. Those are the ones that need to be release first. Palmer is one of the ones on that list. People really need to stop acting like we just want Palmer gone for the hell of it. We are going to struggle with getting under the cap next offseason.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/yearly/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1400912-analyzing-the-oakland-raiders-salary-cap-heading-into-2013
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


He would be the ideal option. Still young somewhat. Wont cost much. Can move around and wants to be a starter.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


He would be the ideal option. Still young somewhat. Wont cost much. Can move around and wants to be a starter.


Always like Moore. He's athletic and can make plays with his feet. He'd be a nice stopgap option if they want to part ways with Palmer.

Regardless of who is the QB, they better get an Oline for a change.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


He would be the ideal option. Still young somewhat. Wont cost much. Can move around and wants to be a starter.


And he's making almost 3 mill so he's probably gonna want something near to that and if Carson is causing a 7 million cap hit regardless if he's on the team or not, is the extra 3 million really THAT big of a deal to downgrade?
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


He would be the ideal option. Still young somewhat. Wont cost much. Can move around and wants to be a starter.


And he's making almost 3 mill so he's probably gonna want something near to that and if Carson is causing a 7 million cap hit regardless if he's on the team or not, is the extra 3 million really THAT big of a deal to downgrade?


I really don't care either way. I like Moore. I like Drew Stanton too. But he's unproven as a starter. If those 2 competed in preseason I'd be alright with it. Assuming Palmer isn't back.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


He would be the ideal option. Still young somewhat. Wont cost much. Can move around and wants to be a starter.


And he's making almost 3 mill so he's probably gonna want something near to that and if Carson is causing a 7 million cap hit regardless if he's on the team or not, is the extra 3 million really THAT big of a deal to downgrade?


You think he will take 3 mill to be a back up or 1.5 or 2 to be a starter. Also where are you getting this 7 million figure from(Please answer).

Also lets say it is a 7 mill cap hit, so using your logic no point of downgrading for just 3 or 4 mill. How about 2014 when it goes up to 15 mill, how much is the cap hit then?
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


Not the worst option based on what I have seen. But if anyone thinks the move is a key to playoff wins they're cracked.

If we really need some dough, it's doable. Will we need that dough? Very doubtful, if expected overpriced players see the door.. If anything, considering money will probably be available to a greater degree than we would spend it, I'd be totally in favor of adding Moore as Palmer's backup, with a quick hook in mind. I think nothing of Leinart, and also think a guy like Moore throwing the ball for us won't make us a better team. But hey, why not some pressure from the backup. Leinart is incapable of pressing Palmer at all. And Pryor might be able to press Palmer for PT, but it's not as a passer. The entire ofensive complexion would have to change for Pryor to even have a chance of success.


Wasn't the whole Palmer argument generally centered around franchise QB, and playoff wins and such? That he couldn't get us over that hump? Well noone has to worry about that, we're not even close for so many reasons.


That's the shame in it. Hue went desperate trying to get to the playoffs with a bad team (mainly defense) on the Palmer trade.

This team isn't a playoff team. Won't be for 3 years and that's assuming some really really good offseason moves.

The part that sucks is, it makes a ton of sense to pair the young players on this team with a young QB and let them work together. But with limited draft picks, do you have that luxury?

Too many issues, not enough resources to make a dent.


This is precisely what most of the kncuckleheads in here don't get.

It's not about anyone being so damn enamored with Palmer. It's about what the hell will you do with his salary money if you cut him? Why do we need to cut him when there's plenty of money ready to be cut elsewhere from guys contribute next to nothing. It's about the fact that you can't rebuild half a roster, and replace your QB, all in one offseason, with 5 draft picks. It's about replacing Palmer with someone better, not just someone else.

Most guys in here just don't get that you rebuild a team in part by trimming the worst first. And replacing the worst parts first, or at least by BPA in your best opportunities to do so. And that one offseason cannot reshape a decimated roster like ours from garbage to playoffs, as if somehow the rest of the league will stand pat in the draft and free agency while they let us have infinite choices and time to pick and choose whoever we want letting them have the scraps.

Most fans do not have a sense of reality about this. What do we gain by cutting Palmer if we cannot replace him with someone significantly better.

Wake up people, we are not the Packers with Favre and Rodgers. Realesing our starting QB is neither a luxury we have, nor is it one of the more important steps to recovery.


OMG. You just dont understand. We cant release all the bad parts right now. We just cant. We cant release or cut all the over paid bad players on our team. So what do you do, you cut or trade the guys you can. The ones who arent apart of the future. The ones who will cost the least against cap and dead money. Those are the ones that need to be release first. Palmer is one of the ones on that list. People really need to stop acting like we just want Palmer gone for the hell of it. We are going to struggle with getting under the cap next offseason.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/yearly/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1400912-analyzing-the-oakland-raiders-salary-cap-heading-into-2013


No it's not me who doesn't get it. It's you. I am trying to think like the front office will, and you are making up your own plan based on your own logic.

We will not struggle with the cap at all if Huff, Seymour and Kelly go bye bye, as they should. And our team won't be worse off for it.
In your infinite wisdom, who do we replace Palmer with to become a better team?
What makes you think, from the link you provided, that we won't cut Kelly, Seymour, Huff, McClain, Janikowski, or trade McFadden or DHB, before we cut Palmer? Do you think the front office can't see how utterly bad this defense is? Do you think they don't think it would be easier to replace those guys than to replace a QB? Of those 8 guys named above, who is the closest to performing up to his salary? Ding, ding, Palmer. He may not be great, but he's the only one even close to doing anything worth anything for what he's getting paid.


I bet, anyone, anytime, anywhere, we don't cut Palmer this offseason.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
holyghost wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
Matt Moore would be my choice of stop-gap QB not named Palmer if we are just talking money.


Not the worst option based on what I have seen. But if anyone thinks the move is a key to playoff wins they're cracked.

If we really need some dough, it's doable. Will we need that dough? Very doubtful, if expected overpriced players see the door.. If anything, considering money will probably be available to a greater degree than we would spend it, I'd be totally in favor of adding Moore as Palmer's backup, with a quick hook in mind. I think nothing of Leinart, and also think a guy like Moore throwing the ball for us won't make us a better team. But hey, why not some pressure from the backup. Leinart is incapable of pressing Palmer at all. And Pryor might be able to press Palmer for PT, but it's not as a passer. The entire ofensive complexion would have to change for Pryor to even have a chance of success.


Wasn't the whole Palmer argument generally centered around franchise QB, and playoff wins and such? That he couldn't get us over that hump? Well noone has to worry about that, we're not even close for so many reasons.


That's the shame in it. Hue went desperate trying to get to the playoffs with a bad team (mainly defense) on the Palmer trade.

This team isn't a playoff team. Won't be for 3 years and that's assuming some really really good offseason moves.

The part that sucks is, it makes a ton of sense to pair the young players on this team with a young QB and let them work together. But with limited draft picks, do you have that luxury?

Too many issues, not enough resources to make a dent.


This is precisely what most of the kncuckleheads in here don't get.

It's not about anyone being so damn enamored with Palmer. It's about what the hell will you do with his salary money if you cut him? Why do we need to cut him when there's plenty of money ready to be cut elsewhere from guys contribute next to nothing. It's about the fact that you can't rebuild half a roster, and replace your QB, all in one offseason, with 5 draft picks. It's about replacing Palmer with someone better, not just someone else.

Most guys in here just don't get that you rebuild a team in part by trimming the worst first. And replacing the worst parts first, or at least by BPA in your best opportunities to do so. And that one offseason cannot reshape a decimated roster like ours from garbage to playoffs, as if somehow the rest of the league will stand pat in the draft and free agency while they let us have infinite choices and time to pick and choose whoever we want letting them have the scraps.

Most fans do not have a sense of reality about this. What do we gain by cutting Palmer if we cannot replace him with someone significantly better.

Wake up people, we are not the Packers with Favre and Rodgers. Realesing our starting QB is neither a luxury we have, nor is it one of the more important steps to recovery.


OMG. You just dont understand. We cant release all the bad parts right now. We just cant. We cant release or cut all the over paid bad players on our team. So what do you do, you cut or trade the guys you can. The ones who arent apart of the future. The ones who will cost the least against cap and dead money. Those are the ones that need to be release first. Palmer is one of the ones on that list. People really need to stop acting like we just want Palmer gone for the hell of it. We are going to struggle with getting under the cap next offseason.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/oakland-raiders/yearly/

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1400912-analyzing-the-oakland-raiders-salary-cap-heading-into-2013


No it's not me who doesn't get it. It's you. I am trying to think like the front office will, and you are making up your own plan based on your own logic.

We will not struggle with the cap at all if Huff, Seymour and Kelly go bye bye, as they should. And our team won't be worse off for it.
In your infinite wisdom, who do we replace Palmer with to become a better team?
What makes you think, from the link you provided, that we won't cut Kelly, Seymour, Huff, McClain, Janikowski, or trade McFadden or DHB, before we cut Palmer? Do you think the front office can't see how utterly bad this defense is? Do you think they don't think it would be easier to replace those guys than to replace a QB? Of those 8 guys named above, who is the closest to performing up to his salary? Ding, ding, Palmer. He may not be great, but he's the only one even close to doing anything worth anything for what he's getting paid.


I bet, anyone, anytime, anywhere, we don't cut Palmer this offseason.


Why do you think they all will be gone?
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because they are not good players making alot of money? They're this years Wimbley and Routt. We didn't have enough picks or cap space to cut deeper last year. You don't think another round of deep cuts for a 3-8 team is inevitable, and that they should head the list of any logical person?
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
Because they are not good players making alot of money? They're this years Wimbley and Routt. We didn't have enough picks or cap space to cut deeper last year. You don't think another round of deep cuts for a 3-8 team is inevitable, and that they should head the list of any logical person?


Do you understand how dead money works and how it counts against the cap? Yes Seymour and Kelly should be off this team. I wont argue that but can we afford to take on all that dead money. Dead money counts against the cap just like(not exactly but similar) their salaries do.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
Because they are not good players making alot of money? They're this years Wimbley and Routt. We didn't have enough picks or cap space to cut deeper last year. You don't think another round of deep cuts for a 3-8 team is inevitable, and that they should head the list of any logical person?


Do you understand how dead money works and how it counts against the cap? Yes Seymour and Kelly should be off this team. I wont argue that but can we afford to take on all that dead money. Dead money counts against the cap just like their salaries do.


Yes I undeerstand how dead money works. We are carrying it right now with Wimbley and Routt and will carry more next year as well.

Dead money isn't the only logic that goes into a GM's decisions. They also need to balance that with considering the actual on field contribution of a player, thus weighing the cost of cutting or keeping them both in money and football.
No GM will make cuts to manage money and then ignore the idea of playing and winning football games. How little Kelly and Seymour actually contribute to winning will definitely be considered by McKenzie. Quite so. The pass rush they used to provide has all but dissolved. Their run defense was always lacking. Ask yourself as GM if you could find a logical reason to keep them. Especially if you wanted to overhaul the lines.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want to ask a question, and would love an answer on it.

This is a defense on pace for record points allowed, franchise record lowest sacks, a defense which has not scored a point this year and has given up 169 points in the last 4 games.

My question is, will cutting anyone tomorrow on this defense really make it much worse? Such as Kelly or Seymour, or Huff?

And the second part of that question - will we be a worse team right now if we released Palmer tomorrow?

Do me a favor and honor me by giving a straight answer, anyone who wishes to.
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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

holyghost wrote:
I want to ask a question, and would love an answer on it.

This is a defense on pace for record points allowed, franchise record lowest sacks, a defense which has not scored a point this year and has given up 169 points in the last 4 games.

My question is, will cutting anyone tomorrow on this defense really make it much worse? Such as Kelly or Seymour, or Huff?

And the second part of that question - will we be a worse team right now if we released Palmer tomorrow?

Do me a favor and honor me by giving a straight answer, anyone who wishes to.


I don't get your hate on Huff. He's our best CB right now, so yes, cutting him would make it much worse. Same goes for Palmer. Him, Myers and Reece are our only players on Offense who came to play this season.

Only thing I can think of for either is $$$
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
holyghost wrote:
I want to ask a question, and would love an answer on it.

This is a defense on pace for record points allowed, franchise record lowest sacks, a defense which has not scored a point this year and has given up 169 points in the last 4 games.

My question is, will cutting anyone tomorrow on this defense really make it much worse? Such as Kelly or Seymour, or Huff?

And the second part of that question - will we be a worse team right now if we released Palmer tomorrow?

Do me a favor and honor me by giving a straight answer, anyone who wishes to.


I don't get your hate on Huff. He's our best CB right now, so yes, cutting him would make it much worse. Same goes for Palmer. Him, Myers and Reece are our only players on Offense who came to play this season.

Only thing I can think of for either is $$$


No dude, it wouldn't make it worse. Yes, he is our best CB. But try to realize here, in 60 minutes your opponent can only score so many points. I think 34, 55, 42 can't get much worse. So yes, he's our best CB. But none of our CBs could start for anyone, so the fact that he is our best doesn't even matter. It's a terrible unit. Do we hang on to a guy because he's our best even though by all normal standards he's really inconsistent and average to below average?

Cutting him would not make it much worse. It wouldn't add 10 minutes to the clock in which the opponent could score 10 more points. You don't lose a damn thing with the guy behind him because only one ball and 60 minutes in a game. The next guy up will be inconsistent too. The point is to get better, and that means having the opponent score less because you stop them by being good, not poor. Not because time runs out and they didn't have any more chances.

My hate on Huff is that while he's collected a premier player's salary for 8 years, he has never performed up to it by any means. He's not a very good player, he's a holdover from a losing era and a part of it, and he's not going to develop into any more of a player than he is now.

You think Huff has equalled Reece and Myers in the stepping up department?! In what way? 2 INTs, thrown to him? He mixes getting torched and making a play every week. I appreciate the bullet he took for us by moving to CB, but would not call him a guy who came to play.. by any means.
Woodson switches between S and CB. He's a great player. Huff is a pile who manages to do both inadequately.
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holyghost


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't understand the logic on here sometimes.

Noone on a defense about to give up the second most points in league history is a good player. Noone. Huff isn't limiting anyone from scoring anything. Simple logic and failure by the opponent from poor execution keeps other tams from scoring 70 on us every week.

That's why no NFL team has ever given up 800 points in a season. Not because guys like Huff made plays and their backups would be worse.

Worse than this D is barely possible in the scope of a 60 minute game. Cutting anyone from the defense is not going to impact anything happening on the field to a significant degree, because like I said worse is barely possible here.
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