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How many more consecutive loses can Allen survive?
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22394
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raidin wrote:
Our run game has been excellent the last two games. The change in scheme wasn't the mistake Allen and Reggie made, it was keeping McFadden.


Exactly. You can see clearly watching Reece (who is not an explosive back) the patience and vision required of this scheme. It's worked in recent weeks despite the top 2 RBs being out.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Give him a couple years, some solid starters, and a playmaker or two on defense and I expect we will see a competitive team.


No kidding. I hope our team will be good when our roster will be as well. In the meantime, you recognize good coaches with what they can do with what they have. What we've done is gave up the most points in the NFL this season.


That can't be more false. I don't care who we had as a coach. We will not win if we have a defensive backfield of Matt Giordano and the motley crew we have back there right now. Did you see our tackling and angles out there? Definitely not NFL calibur. And we have no running game either. Our OL is either too old or just bad in too many spots. And don't even get me started on the OC's playcalling.

So what can be done without quality players??? Not much in just one house cleaning year.



But Allen change the running game to zone. It was working before he changed. Same thing with the secondary these are all new players brought in by Allen. This is the team he made and now you're making excuses for him.?


I was unaware Allen was the GM now..........

McKenzie did what he could with what he had. Had to add some cheap 1 year vets to roster. Spencer and Bartel were hurt weeks 1 and 2. Spencer is still out. Hanson has been the 1 player who'd actually made a play here and there.

Giordano, Huff and Branch are holdovers. Giordano wouldn't start on many teams. But that the situation the Raiders find themselves in unfortunately with no resources to upgrade. He's starting because they moved the FS to CB.

It's all a mess, clearly. But what can they do today to fix it? Nothing. You can rest assured there will be new starters across the secondary next season when they have the ability to add them.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
bitty wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
oakdb36 wrote:
ZoomWaffle wrote:
Give him a couple years, some solid starters, and a playmaker or two on defense and I expect we will see a competitive team.


No kidding. I hope our team will be good when our roster will be as well. In the meantime, you recognize good coaches with what they can do with what they have. What we've done is gave up the most points in the NFL this season.


That can't be more false. I don't care who we had as a coach. We will not win if we have a defensive backfield of Matt Giordano and the motley crew we have back there right now. Did you see our tackling and angles out there? Definitely not NFL calibur. And we have no running game either. Our OL is either too old or just bad in too many spots. And don't even get me started on the OC's playcalling.

So what can be done without quality players??? Not much in just one house cleaning year.



But Allen change the running game to zone. It was working before he changed. Same thing with the secondary these are all new players brought in by Allen. This is the team he made and now you're making excuses for him.?


I was unaware Allen was the GM now..........

McKenzie did what he could with what he had. Had to add some cheap 1 year vets to roster. Spencer and Bartel were hurt weeks 1 and 2. Spencer is still out. Hanson has been the 1 player who'd actually made a play here and there.

Giordano, Huff and Branch are holdovers. Giordano wouldn't start on many teams. But that the situation the Raiders find themselves in unfortunately with no resources to upgrade. He's starting because they moved the FS to CB.

It's all a mess, clearly. But what can they do today to fix it? Nothing. You can rest assured there will be new starters across the secondary next season when they have the ability to add them.


When GM hired Allen didn't he say I want a head coach I can work together with? So now the HC has no say on personal?

Read my post on Practice
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
Raidin wrote:
Our run game has been excellent the last two games. The change in scheme wasn't the mistake Allen and Reggie made, it was keeping McFadden.


Exactly. You can see clearly watching Reece (who is not an explosive back) the patience and vision required of this scheme. It's worked in recent weeks despite the top 2 RBs being out.


Lmao, it's not patience, its lack of burst. He has more time to see the holes develop. McFadden's biggest asset is his acceleration. That's why he fit the PBS so well. He's best when he knows where the hole will be so he can turn on the burners right when he gets the ball. He flies through the hole, makes a LB miss one on one and just like that, he's already at the 3rd level. And how many DB's can take down McFadden at full speed? Not to mention he has a good stiff arm and loves contact.

I love the way he plays RB, which is unfortunate since it looks like we're moving away from him. I'm kind of alright with it though since he gets hurt too much.
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justwinbaby81


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
justwinbaby81 wrote:
Those preaching consistency are going to get it. We will consistently be a 3 to 5 win team with Dennis Allen. Enjoy that consistency.


Where is the logic in that? Maybe he gets a play maker or 2 to work with and some overall talent and actually has a chance.

Like I said, Hue had eight wins, with unretired Palmer half a year, McFadden the other half. One playmaker. He won 8 games with the terrible slide you later mention. Hue took care of the team with his offensive expertise. Can Allen say the same about his "expertise"? Because we have a legitimate shot at giving up the most points in a season.

justwinbaby81 wrote:
Hue Jackson won 8 games with this team. Same talent more or less, and he was also a rookie HC. This team has not only had zero improvement, it has immediately regressed in every way. This team is less competitive than the second stint of Art Shell. That says it all.


3 > 2 right? Because that's how many games Shell won in 2006. Also, you forget the Raiders lost Whimbley who was their best defensive player (sadly).

You're really gonna play that game? Three wins over a pretty good team and the only two teams worse than us? One in OT against a backup QB and injured best player that bailed us out? Sorry, doesn't work like that big P. At least Shell beat the defending SB champs
.

justwinbaby81 wrote:
I gotta drive ten hours home from Cincy tomorrow. I was at the Ravens game two weeks ago. I have witnessed the Raiders give up 99 points in two games. You can bet your [inappropriate/removed] I will buy no tickets next year if this guy is coach. He has given me no reason to think he will be successful next season, and you don't let the captain continue to sink the ship if you know he can't steer the damn boat.


Simple minds I guess. Perhaps give the team time to find some actual talent, then judge. You are blind if you think coaching is 100% the issue. Jackson dropped 4 of his last 5 in some ugly fashion due to poor defense and STs. Why? No talent. But we forget that because the Raiders were 8-8 as if that is meaningful or something.

Simple minded? Coming from you, big P.... I'm heartbroken.

Please.

Never said coaching is 100%. Salary space was a major issue. Terrible right side of o line, sure. But there is nothing you can say Dennis Allen has done well. This team has been horrible in every way. He has to be accountable for a lot of the problems. I do strongly believe that Dennis Allen was never qualified in the first place and is currently in over his head. That's the long and the short of it.




I kinda wish Jackson would have stayed coach, because it'd been the same result. You have a talentless team. Throw in another year on guys like Kelly and Seymour who've been the closest thing to 'good' over the last 2 years. Take away the only pass rusher the team has. Enjoy life with a poor right side to the Oline.

Jackson would have failed this season just as he finished 2011.

Couldn't disagree more. We would have a potent offense with Hue, flat out. Indisputable that it would be at the very least better than it is now. And the defense can't get any worse.

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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justwinbaby81 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
justwinbaby81 wrote:
Those preaching consistency are going to get it. We will consistently be a 3 to 5 win team with Dennis Allen. Enjoy that consistency.


Where is the logic in that? Maybe he gets a play maker or 2 to work with and some overall talent and actually has a chance.

Like I said, Hue had eight wins, with unretired Palmer half a year, McFadden the other half. One playmaker. He won 8 games with the terrible slide you later mention. Hue took care of the team with his offensive expertise. Can Allen say the same about his "expertise"? Because we have a legitimate shot at giving up the most points in a season.

justwinbaby81 wrote:
Hue Jackson won 8 games with this team. Same talent more or less, and he was also a rookie HC. This team has not only had zero improvement, it has immediately regressed in every way. This team is less competitive than the second stint of Art Shell. That says it all.


3 > 2 right? Because that's how many games Shell won in 2006. Also, you forget the Raiders lost Whimbley who was their best defensive player (sadly).

You're really gonna play that game? Three wins over a pretty good team and the only two teams worse than us? One in OT against a backup QB and injured best player that bailed us out? Sorry, doesn't work like that big P. At least Shell beat the defending SB champs
.

justwinbaby81 wrote:
I gotta drive ten hours home from Cincy tomorrow. I was at the Ravens game two weeks ago. I have witnessed the Raiders give up 99 points in two games. You can bet your [inappropriate/removed] I will buy no tickets next year if this guy is coach. He has given me no reason to think he will be successful next season, and you don't let the captain continue to sink the ship if you know he can't steer the damn boat.


Simple minds I guess. Perhaps give the team time to find some actual talent, then judge. You are blind if you think coaching is 100% the issue. Jackson dropped 4 of his last 5 in some ugly fashion due to poor defense and STs. Why? No talent. But we forget that because the Raiders were 8-8 as if that is meaningful or something.

Simple minded? Coming from you, big P.... I'm heartbroken.

Please.

Never said coaching is 100%. Salary space was a major issue. Terrible right side of o line, sure. But there is nothing you can say Dennis Allen has done well. This team has been horrible in every way. He has to be accountable for a lot of the problems. I do strongly believe that Dennis Allen was never qualified in the first place and is currently in over his head. That's the long and the short of it.




I kinda wish Jackson would have stayed coach, because it'd been the same result. You have a talentless team. Throw in another year on guys like Kelly and Seymour who've been the closest thing to 'good' over the last 2 years. Take away the only pass rusher the team has. Enjoy life with a poor right side to the Oline.

Jackson would have failed this season just as he finished 2011.

Couldn't disagree more. We would have a potent offense with Hue, flat out. Indisputable that it would be at the very least better than it is now. And the defense can't get any worse.


Considering Jackson had talent for his expertise makes a difference. Just a thought.

Bottom line is, Allen isn't going anywhere. So don't go to the games, whatever.

He will be given next year with some major roster turnover and the development of his first rookie class to show he's turning things around.

This was ALWAYS going to get worse before it got better. This team was bad last year and they were forced backwards w/ cap and draft issues.
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RaiderX


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
This was ALWAYS going to get worse before it got better. This team was bad last year and they were forced backwards w/ cap and draft issues.


This. The team has to endure some beatings to start fresh. Now we're finally gonna see the team run properly with a GM scouting and drafting along with his HC and finding guys that fit the system. It's clear we're not all use to this with Al just "reloading" and lighting his checkbook up just to bring mediocre talent here. This is CHANGE folks.
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justwinbaby81


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure anyone had Oakland as a playoff team. We all knew it would be a down year. But there's a difference between a 8 win down year, 6 win, or the 4 wins we are probably looking at. And I'm not arguing that Allen won't be back next year. He will be our head coach in 2013 barring five more blowouts. But to blindly support a coach who is clearly unfit to run a team is just wrong. It does suck we continue to hire these guys because we have no other options. Doesnt make it right.

And I know me not going to games means nothing to the forum, that's okay. I was venting. But I don't have a problem saving my funds for when I can travel to an away stadium without getting heckled and being able to say something back at some point. (Which by the way was not the case in Cincy--incredible fans. Probably can relate to the Raiders as much as any other NFL team. Was not the case in Baltimore though. Buncha chump bandwagon fans.) But it is much more fun to spend any and all disposable income watching your team win more than once every five years. So I will save it for when we have a team that isn't out of it by halftime every week, not a Dennis Allen run team. Which I think will be a repeat next year, with maybe 5-6 wins.

Just my personal opinion. Sorry, I know some people hate those around here.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justwinbaby81 wrote:
I'm not sure anyone had Oakland as a playoff team. We all knew it would be a down year. But there's a difference between a 8 win down year, 6 win, or the 4 wins we are probably looking at. And I'm not arguing that Allen won't be back next year. He will be our head coach in 2013 barring five more blowouts. But to blindly support a coach who is clearly unfit to run a team is just wrong. It does suck we continue to hire these guys because we have no other options. Doesnt make it right.

And I know me not going to games means nothing to the forum, that's okay. I was venting. But I don't have a problem saving my funds for when I can travel to an away stadium without getting heckled and being able to say something back at some point. (Which by the way was not the case in Cincy--incredible fans. Probably can relate to the Raiders as much as any other NFL team. Was not the case in Baltimore though. Buncha chump bandwagon fans.) But it is much more fun to spend any and all disposable income watching your team win more than once every five years. So I will save it for when we have a team that isn't out of it by halftime every week, not a Dennis Allen run team. Which I think will be a repeat next year, with maybe 5-6 wins.

Just my personal opinion. Sorry, I know some people hate those around here.


Great post. Its like people are blindly following and acting like nothing is their fault cause its different from what AL did.
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
justwinbaby81 wrote:
I'm not sure anyone had Oakland as a playoff team. We all knew it would be a down year. But there's a difference between a 8 win down year, 6 win, or the 4 wins we are probably looking at. And I'm not arguing that Allen won't be back next year. He will be our head coach in 2013 barring five more blowouts. But to blindly support a coach who is clearly unfit to run a team is just wrong. It does suck we continue to hire these guys because we have no other options. Doesnt make it right.

And I know me not going to games means nothing to the forum, that's okay. I was venting. But I don't have a problem saving my funds for when I can travel to an away stadium without getting heckled and being able to say something back at some point. (Which by the way was not the case in Cincy--incredible fans. Probably can relate to the Raiders as much as any other NFL team. Was not the case in Baltimore though. Buncha chump bandwagon fans.) But it is much more fun to spend any and all disposable income watching your team win more than once every five years. So I will save it for when we have a team that isn't out of it by halftime every week, not a Dennis Allen run team. Which I think will be a repeat next year, with maybe 5-6 wins.

Just my personal opinion. Sorry, I know some people hate those around here.


Great post. Its like people are blindly following and acting like nothing is their fault cause its different from what AL did.


Nobody is blindly following. Me personally, talking about changing HC is irrelevant. It's not happening.

In year 2, if it's the same result, then I will be ready for a change.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
justwinbaby81 wrote:
I'm not sure anyone had Oakland as a playoff team. We all knew it would be a down year. But there's a difference between a 8 win down year, 6 win, or the 4 wins we are probably looking at. And I'm not arguing that Allen won't be back next year. He will be our head coach in 2013 barring five more blowouts. But to blindly support a coach who is clearly unfit to run a team is just wrong. It does suck we continue to hire these guys because we have no other options. Doesnt make it right.

And I know me not going to games means nothing to the forum, that's okay. I was venting. But I don't have a problem saving my funds for when I can travel to an away stadium without getting heckled and being able to say something back at some point. (Which by the way was not the case in Cincy--incredible fans. Probably can relate to the Raiders as much as any other NFL team. Was not the case in Baltimore though. Buncha chump bandwagon fans.) But it is much more fun to spend any and all disposable income watching your team win more than once every five years. So I will save it for when we have a team that isn't out of it by halftime every week, not a Dennis Allen run team. Which I think will be a repeat next year, with maybe 5-6 wins.

Just my personal opinion. Sorry, I know some people hate those around here.


Great post. Its like people are blindly following and acting like nothing is their fault cause its different from what AL did.


This is exactly it.
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Raidin


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

justwinbaby81 wrote:
I'm not sure anyone had Oakland as a playoff team. We all knew it would be a down year. But there's a difference between a 8 win down year, 6 win, or the 4 wins we are probably looking at. And I'm not arguing that Allen won't be back next year. He will be our head coach in 2013 barring five more blowouts. But to blindly support a coach who is clearly unfit to run a team is just wrong. It does suck we continue to hire these guys because we have no other options. Doesnt make it right.




The difference can often be schedule and how teams change. Hard to know how we finish this year in terms of record but last year we only played 4 teams who had a winning record for the season, so far this year we've played 6. The nature of the defeats have been tough though I will say that.
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Chali21


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Positives I've seen:
penalties have gone down.
Allen has been 5 for 5 on challenges.

Not huge earth shattering things but better than we were. Also our kicker has just one miss?!? Crazy.
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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chali21 wrote:
Positives I've seen:
penalties have gone down.
Allen has been 5 for 5 on challenges.

Not huge earth shattering things but better than we were. Also our kicker has just one miss?!? Crazy.

Just needs to fix the confidence thing as it really went downhill after the Bucs game and a lot of the new head coach mistakes. Like when to go for it on 1st down, when to take the FG (Jano size FG). Forcing OC to run the ball when the game is in our hands instead of passing. Forcing DC to keep pressure/gameplan when a win is within reach.

Allen will be here no doubt. Not so sure on Knapp or Tarver.
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oakdb36


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
From Elias: The Raiders have allowed 169 points over their last four games. That is the second highest four-game total in the NFL since its merger with the AFL in 1970. The only other team to allow that many points over a four-game span during that time was Tennessee in 2004 (177).


http://espn.go.com/espn/elias?date=20121126

Quote:
Josh Dubow ‏@JoshDubowAP
#Raiders on pace for 18.9 sacks this season. Low for team is 25 in 03 and 04 since sacks became official in 82

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