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CowboysTilIDie
Joined: 09 Jan 2012
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Location: Amarillo, TX
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 Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| PincheJimmy wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | I have no issues with trying to find our next stud QB, I just really don't think Barkley is that guy. This is less Aaron Rodgers and more Brady Quinn, IMO. He's dropping for good reason. |
I completely agree. Barkley's physical limitations were exposed this season, and I think it will cause him to drop to the 3rd or 4th round. He has very average arm strength, no athletic ability to speak of, and throws a ton of really bad interceptions when placed under pressure.
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't complain if we selected him in the 4th round if we had a very productive first three rounds. I think the value would be sound, but I really don't expect much from him as anything other than a solid player who will spend the brunt of his career as a backup....unless Sean Payton is our head coach. I think he'd be able to create a system where Barkley could flourish.
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The only QBs who really intrigue me this year are Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Zac Dysert. |
So, your good with picking a QB in the 4th who you think is gonna spend his carreer as a backup?? whats the point in that? We need to draft a player who gonna be our future Starter! Hell, we can find an UDFA to do that. |
Picking any player in the 4th round is with the expectation that they will be solid backups for most of their careers, but with decent potential to develop into a starter at some point. Just because we take him in the 4th doesn't mean he won't improve and develop into a starter. Plan simply voiced his opinion that he doesn't believe he will be a starting quality QB.
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plan9misfit
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
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Location: RIP: B2TB, T14, & S.A. We miss you.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| PincheJimmy wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | I have no issues with trying to find our next stud QB, I just really don't think Barkley is that guy. This is less Aaron Rodgers and more Brady Quinn, IMO. He's dropping for good reason. |
I completely agree. Barkley's physical limitations were exposed this season, and I think it will cause him to drop to the 3rd or 4th round. He has very average arm strength, no athletic ability to speak of, and throws a ton of really bad interceptions when placed under pressure.
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't complain if we selected him in the 4th round if we had a very productive first three rounds. I think the value would be sound, but I really don't expect much from him as anything other than a solid player who will spend the brunt of his career as a backup....unless Sean Payton is our head coach. I think he'd be able to create a system where Barkley could flourish.
EDIT:
The only QBs who really intrigue me this year are Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Zac Dysert. |
So, your good with picking a QB in the 4th who you think is gonna spend his carreer as a backup?? whats the point in that? We need to draft a player who gonna be our future Starter! Hell, we can find an UDFA to do that. |
It's nice to see that you clearly ignored the other part of my post. I'll put in bold and in huge red font so you won't miss it again.
And I don't see anything wrong with taking a flyer on a potential franchise QB in the 4th round who, at worst, will be a solid career backup. In case you don't understand how the NFL works, if another team which needs a QB sees a reliable backup player on another team's roster and feels he may make a solid starter, you generally get a 1st or 2nd round draft pick for that player. That was Ron Wolf's draft strategy for his entire career, and he was arguably the greatest GM in the history of the NFL. As I've said for years: you draft a QB each and every year with a mid-to-late round (i.e., rounds 4-6) draft pick for that very reason. And seeing that there's no way that Barkley would possibly fall any farther than the 4th, the value is ridiculous and would be far too great to pass on. That's why you make that selection. Best. Player. Available. Regardless. Of. Position.
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flyingmonkey30
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | flyingmonkey30 wrote: | | Tony7188 wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | Last year I had Barkley as my #2 QB and after this season I would still rank him that high i would be shocked if he dropped out of the top 10. Kid is legit. |
By legit, what QB do you think hes similar too in the NFL? I didn't see him being that much of a lock |
Brees with a weaker arm comes to my mind. But more of Brees in SD than Brees in NOLA |
Honestly, I couldn't think of one but that is a perfect player comparison. |
No, it really isn't. Brees is much more athletic than Barkley. Brees is shifty, where Barkley is very flat footed. Brees is also 3 inches shorter than Barkley, but he has a stronger arm. |
Where do you get that Barkley is flat footed? He moves very well in the pocket, and avoids sacks on the regular. My favorite play of his is when he rolls out (forget against who) and pump fakes the defender, gets him in the air, and picks up the first with his feet. He is not a spectacular athlete, but he is better than he gets credit for. The Mannings aren't good athletes either, but they move in the pocket well, just like Barkley does (although Barkley isn't on the same level, but just making a point).
You are right, Barkley does have a weaker arm. And I mentioned that. He isn't the gunslinger that Brees is now, but comparable to what he was in SD
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JWingate
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 3991
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | flyingmonkey30 wrote: | | Tony7188 wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | Last year I had Barkley as my #2 QB and after this season I would still rank him that high i would be shocked if he dropped out of the top 10. Kid is legit. |
By legit, what QB do you think hes similar too in the NFL? I didn't see him being that much of a lock |
Brees with a weaker arm comes to my mind. But more of Brees in SD than Brees in NOLA |
Honestly, I couldn't think of one but that is a perfect player comparison. |
No, it really isn't. Brees is much more athletic than Barkley. Brees is shifty, where Barkley is very flat footed. Brees is also 3 inches shorter than Barkley, but he has a stronger arm. |
You shouldn't expect a player comparison to be a cookie cutter of that player. We are talking about playing style and I do believe it is a great example.
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JWingate
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
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Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | PincheJimmy wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | I have no issues with trying to find our next stud QB, I just really don't think Barkley is that guy. This is less Aaron Rodgers and more Brady Quinn, IMO. He's dropping for good reason. |
I completely agree. Barkley's physical limitations were exposed this season, and I think it will cause him to drop to the 3rd or 4th round. He has very average arm strength, no athletic ability to speak of, and throws a ton of really bad interceptions when placed under pressure.
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't complain if we selected him in the 4th round if we had a very productive first three rounds. I think the value would be sound, but I really don't expect much from him as anything other than a solid player who will spend the brunt of his career as a backup....unless Sean Payton is our head coach. I think he'd be able to create a system where Barkley could flourish.
EDIT:
The only QBs who really intrigue me this year are Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Zac Dysert. |
So, your good with picking a QB in the 4th who you think is gonna spend his carreer as a backup?? whats the point in that? We need to draft a player who gonna be our future Starter! Hell, we can find an UDFA to do that. |
It's nice to see that you clearly ignored the other part of my post. I'll put in bold and in huge red font so you won't miss it again.
And I don't see anything wrong with taking a flyer on a potential franchise QB in the 4th round who, at worst, will be a solid career backup. In case you don't understand how the NFL works, if another team which needs a QB sees a reliable backup player on another team's roster and feels he may make a solid starter, you generally get a 1st or 2nd round draft pick for that player. That was Ron Wolf's draft strategy for his entire career, and he was arguably the greatest GM in the history of the NFL. As I've said for years: you draft a QB each and every year with a mid-to-late round (i.e., rounds 4-6) draft pick for that very reason. And seeing that there's no way that Barkley would possibly fall any farther than the 4th, the value is ridiculous and would be far too great to pass on. That's why you make that selection. Best. Player. Available. Regardless. Of. Position. |
Plan do you watch players or watch stat lines?
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PincheJimmy
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 743
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | PincheJimmy wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | I have no issues with trying to find our next stud QB, I just really don't think Barkley is that guy. This is less Aaron Rodgers and more Brady Quinn, IMO. He's dropping for good reason. |
I completely agree. Barkley's physical limitations were exposed this season, and I think it will cause him to drop to the 3rd or 4th round. He has very average arm strength, no athletic ability to speak of, and throws a ton of really bad interceptions when placed under pressure.
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't complain if we selected him in the 4th round if we had a very productive first three rounds. I think the value would be sound, but I really don't expect much from him as anything other than a solid player who will spend the brunt of his career as a backup....unless Sean Payton is our head coach. I think he'd be able to create a system where Barkley could flourish.
EDIT:
The only QBs who really intrigue me this year are Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Zac Dysert. |
So, your good with picking a QB in the 4th who you think is gonna spend his carreer as a backup?? whats the point in that? We need to draft a player who gonna be our future Starter! Hell, we can find an UDFA to do that. |
It's nice to see that you clearly ignored the other part of my post. I'll put in bold and in huge red font so you won't miss it again.
And I don't see anything wrong with taking a flyer on a potential franchise QB in the 4th round who, at worst, will be a solid career backup. In case you don't understand how the NFL works, if another team which needs a QB sees a reliable backup player on another team's roster and feels he may make a solid starter, you generally get a 1st or 2nd round draft pick for that player. That was Ron Wolf's draft strategy for his entire career, and he was arguably the greatest GM in the history of the NFL. As I've said for years: you draft a QB each and every year with a mid-to-late round (i.e., rounds 4-6) draft pick for that very reason. And seeing that there's no way that Barkley would possibly fall any farther than the 4th, the value is ridiculous and would be far too great to pass on. That's why you make that selection. Best. Player. Available. Regardless. Of. Position. |
I understand that but when that player doesnt pans out, I am sure Jerry is to blame for the pick. So Barkely is great for us IF Payton is here but if not, Barkley is not a good fit for us, I got it now  |
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PincheJimmy
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
Posts: 743
Location: Flower Mound, TX
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| PincheJimmy wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | PincheJimmy wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | Nextyearfordaboyz wrote: | | I have no issues with trying to find our next stud QB, I just really don't think Barkley is that guy. This is less Aaron Rodgers and more Brady Quinn, IMO. He's dropping for good reason. |
I completely agree. Barkley's physical limitations were exposed this season, and I think it will cause him to drop to the 3rd or 4th round. He has very average arm strength, no athletic ability to speak of, and throws a ton of really bad interceptions when placed under pressure.
Don't get me wrong; I wouldn't complain if we selected him in the 4th round if we had a very productive first three rounds. I think the value would be sound, but I really don't expect much from him as anything other than a solid player who will spend the brunt of his career as a backup....unless Sean Payton is our head coach. I think he'd be able to create a system where Barkley could flourish.
EDIT:
The only QBs who really intrigue me this year are Tyler Wilson, Tyler Bray, and Zac Dysert. |
So, your good with picking a QB in the 4th who you think is gonna spend his carreer as a backup?? whats the point in that? We need to draft a player who gonna be our future Starter! Hell, we can find an UDFA to do that. |
It's nice to see that you clearly ignored the other part of my post. I'll put in bold and in huge red font so you won't miss it again.
And I don't see anything wrong with taking a flyer on a potential franchise QB in the 4th round who, at worst, will be a solid career backup. In case you don't understand how the NFL works, if another team which needs a QB sees a reliable backup player on another team's roster and feels he may make a solid starter, you generally get a 1st or 2nd round draft pick for that player. That was Ron Wolf's draft strategy for his entire career, and he was arguably the greatest GM in the history of the NFL. As I've said for years: you draft a QB each and every year with a mid-to-late round (i.e., rounds 4-6) draft pick for that very reason. And seeing that there's no way that Barkley would possibly fall any farther than the 4th, the value is ridiculous and would be far too great to pass on. That's why you make that selection. Best. Player. Available. Regardless. Of. Position. |
I understand that but when that player doesnt pans out, I am sure Jerry is to blame for the pick. So Barkely is great for us IF Payton is here but if not, Barkley is not a good fit for us, I got it now |
Yes Plan, i do know how the NFL works but dont get bent out of shape when someone questions like you do. So we want BPA but not in the 1st 2 rounds, we want lineman, is that correct?? Sheesh PLan, relax, it's gonna be all right |
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romo2bryant
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:39 am Post subject: |
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If were going to let someone wait a few season why no love for bray?
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flyingmonkey30
Joined: 04 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| romo2bryant wrote: | | If were going to let someone wait a few season why no love for bray? |
I think that no matter how long he sits, his ego will always hold him back. Bad accuracy due to mechanics which he feels he doesn't need to fix. Great physical tools, but I feel like he will always end up disappointing in the end.
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plan9misfit
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
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Location: RIP: B2TB, T14, & S.A. We miss you.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| JWingate wrote: | | Plan do you watch players or watch stat lines? |
Players. Stat lines can be terribly misleading. And I know about Barkley quite well because I live in L.A. and was a USC season ticket holder up until very recently.
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| The_Slamman wrote: | | It's like we are in a win now mentality with lose now personnel. |
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mco65
Joined: 04 Feb 2011
Posts: 534
Location: US
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| romo2bryant wrote: | | If were going to let someone wait a few season why no love for bray? |
I vote NO on Bray. I have watched damn near every UT game and Bray (IMO) is a product of great WRs... He makes DUMB DUMB decisions sometimes.. of course that could just be youth.. If he is available in the 4th maybe but I would NOT expect him to come out unless he is projected in the 1st or 2nd round.. The 2013 QB draft class appears to be thin right now so his projections could be higher in 2013 than they might be in 2014, not sure. I can't see him getting much better in 2013 at UT because I believe his WRs are coming out this year... |
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JWingate
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 3991
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | Plan do you watch players or watch stat lines? |
Players. Stat lines can be terribly misleading. And I know about Barkley quite well because I live in L.A. and was a USC season ticket holder up until very recently. |
Ok, I don't understand how you are not seeing what Barkley has. Have you looked at him as a fan of the game or have you evaluated him with interest of if he can make the step into the next level, because for me they are 2 completely different styles of watching a game. A fan will evaluate a QB on the end result of the play, an evaluator will loo at the player up until the ball placement and then stop evaluating the QB. I also feel that arm strength is vastly overrated. As long as they do not have a weak arm like Tim Tebow the QB will be fine. Also, Drew Brees had a "weak" arm early in his career but I am sure no one is saying that now. Barkley has very good accuracy and is great within the pocket. I also feel when he learns to stop throwing off his back foot he is going to become even more accurate and have 10x better arm strength. The kid is going to be good, just needs a few tweaks.
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plan9misfit
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 18011
Location: RIP: B2TB, T14, & S.A. We miss you.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| JWingate wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | Plan do you watch players or watch stat lines? |
Players. Stat lines can be terribly misleading. And I know about Barkley quite well because I live in L.A. and was a USC season ticket holder up until very recently. |
Ok, I don't understand how you are not seeing what Barkley has. Have you looked at him as a fan of the game or have you evaluated him with interest of if he can make the step into the next level, because for me they are 2 completely different styles of watching a game. A fan will evaluate a QB on the end result of the play, an evaluator will loo at the player up until the ball placement and then stop evaluating the QB. I also feel that arm strength is vastly overrated. As long as they do not have a weak arm like Tim Tebow the QB will be fine. Also, Drew Brees had a "weak" arm early in his career but I am sure no one is saying that now. Barkley has very good accuracy and is great within the pocket. I also feel when he learns to stop throwing off his back foot he is going to become even more accurate and have 10x better arm strength. The kid is going to be good, just needs a few tweaks. |
I watched him with the interst of drafting him, not as a fan. And what I saw, especially this season, is a guy who really lacks the athletic ability to perform as a QB unless he has a clean pocket around him. The Stanford and UCLA games were perfect examples of that. Barkley's immobility prevented him from being able to make any plays when Khaled Holmes was out, leaving the Cardinal to hit him throughout the entire game. He was beaten to a pulp. His increased level of turnovers and overall struggles with accuracy were in part to Holmes' injury and because Matt Kalil went pro. It's a strong reminder as to how important an offensive line is. My fear with Barkley isn't his leadership or arm strength but our lack of dedication to an offensive line. If Romo - a very fine scrambler in his own right - has been beaten senseless, Barkley would land on IR within weeks. As I said, I wouldn't complain if we drafted him but we would have to build up a very strong offensive line in order for him to perform up to his level of ability.
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| The_Slamman wrote: | | It's like we are in a win now mentality with lose now personnel. |
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JWingate
Joined: 10 Aug 2008
Posts: 3991
Location: Delaware
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | Plan do you watch players or watch stat lines? |
Players. Stat lines can be terribly misleading. And I know about Barkley quite well because I live in L.A. and was a USC season ticket holder up until very recently. |
Ok, I don't understand how you are not seeing what Barkley has. Have you looked at him as a fan of the game or have you evaluated him with interest of if he can make the step into the next level, because for me they are 2 completely different styles of watching a game. A fan will evaluate a QB on the end result of the play, an evaluator will loo at the player up until the ball placement and then stop evaluating the QB. I also feel that arm strength is vastly overrated. As long as they do not have a weak arm like Tim Tebow the QB will be fine. Also, Drew Brees had a "weak" arm early in his career but I am sure no one is saying that now. Barkley has very good accuracy and is great within the pocket. I also feel when he learns to stop throwing off his back foot he is going to become even more accurate and have 10x better arm strength. The kid is going to be good, just needs a few tweaks. |
I watched him with the interst of drafting him, not as a fan. And what I saw, especially this season, is a guy who really lacks the athletic ability to perform as a QB unless he has a clean pocket around him. The Stanford and UCLA games were perfect examples of that. Barkley's immobility prevented him from being able to make any plays when Khaled Holmes was out, leaving the Cardinal to hit him throughout the entire game. He was beaten to a pulp. His increased level of turnovers and overall struggles with accuracy were in part to Holmes' injury and because Matt Kalil went pro. It's a strong reminder as to how important an offensive line is. My fear with Barkley isn't his leadership or arm strength but our lack of dedication to an offensive line. If Romo - a very fine scrambler in his own right - has been beaten senseless, Barkley would land on IR within weeks. As I said, I wouldn't complain if we drafted him but we would have to build up a very strong offensive line in order for him to perform up to his level of ability. |
That would be any QB you put behind an offensive line outside of Aaron Rodgers (The guy defies all odds). Put Tom Brady, Manning, Brees and more behind an awful OL and they are not going to be an elite player. This is why I do not blame Romo for the awful season we are having, I blame our OL and HC. Our OL is playing to get someone hurt and Jason Garrett doesn't understand how much a screen play can benefit a team that doesn't have a run game nor an offensive line. Put Barkley behind a capable OL and the man will shine.
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plan9misfit
Joined: 29 Oct 2004
Posts: 18011
Location: RIP: B2TB, T14, & S.A. We miss you.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| JWingate wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | plan9misfit wrote: | | JWingate wrote: | | Plan do you watch players or watch stat lines? |
Players. Stat lines can be terribly misleading. And I know about Barkley quite well because I live in L.A. and was a USC season ticket holder up until very recently. |
Ok, I don't understand how you are not seeing what Barkley has. Have you looked at him as a fan of the game or have you evaluated him with interest of if he can make the step into the next level, because for me they are 2 completely different styles of watching a game. A fan will evaluate a QB on the end result of the play, an evaluator will loo at the player up until the ball placement and then stop evaluating the QB. I also feel that arm strength is vastly overrated. As long as they do not have a weak arm like Tim Tebow the QB will be fine. Also, Drew Brees had a "weak" arm early in his career but I am sure no one is saying that now. Barkley has very good accuracy and is great within the pocket. I also feel when he learns to stop throwing off his back foot he is going to become even more accurate and have 10x better arm strength. The kid is going to be good, just needs a few tweaks. |
I watched him with the interst of drafting him, not as a fan. And what I saw, especially this season, is a guy who really lacks the athletic ability to perform as a QB unless he has a clean pocket around him. The Stanford and UCLA games were perfect examples of that. Barkley's immobility prevented him from being able to make any plays when Khaled Holmes was out, leaving the Cardinal to hit him throughout the entire game. He was beaten to a pulp. His increased level of turnovers and overall struggles with accuracy were in part to Holmes' injury and because Matt Kalil went pro. It's a strong reminder as to how important an offensive line is. My fear with Barkley isn't his leadership or arm strength but our lack of dedication to an offensive line. If Romo - a very fine scrambler in his own right - has been beaten senseless, Barkley would land on IR within weeks. As I said, I wouldn't complain if we drafted him but we would have to build up a very strong offensive line in order for him to perform up to his level of ability. |
That would be any QB you put behind an offensive line outside of Aaron Rodgers (The guy defies all odds). Put Tom Brady, Manning, Brees and more behind an awful OL and they are not going to be an elite player. This is why I do not blame Romo for the awful season we are having, I blame our OL and HC. Our OL is playing to get someone hurt and Jason Garrett doesn't understand how much a screen play can benefit a team that doesn't have a run game nor an offensive line. Put Barkley behind a capable OL and the man will shine. |
I'm not disagreeing with you. I think Barkley has the potential to be a solid player, but it's situationally dependent due to his physical limitations. That's why I think he'll probably spend the bulk of his career as a backup. Could I be wrong? Of course, and I hope to be. I like the kid. He really seems to have a good head on his shoulders.
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