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(re) Building the Oakland Raiders
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22680
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaisinBran wrote:
The Packers were already a good team when Thompson became GM.

The Raiders were not a good team when Reggie took over, and still aren't.

Unfair to expect the same results from Reggie, since he's in a terrible situation to begin with.


They were a good team that won 4 games? How's that work?
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
RaisinBran wrote:
The Packers were already a good team when Thompson became GM.

The Raiders were not a good team when Reggie took over, and still aren't.

Unfair to expect the same results from Reggie, since he's in a terrible situation to begin with.


They were a good team that won 4 games? How's that work?


Ask the Chiefs. They're a top 5 defense and best team ever. Remember? I just don't get how that works with only 1 win Laughing
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RaisinBran


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
RaisinBran wrote:
The Packers were already a good team when Thompson became GM.

The Raiders were not a good team when Reggie took over, and still aren't.

Unfair to expect the same results from Reggie, since he's in a terrible situation to begin with.


They were a good team that won 4 games? How's that work?

They won 10 games in the season before Thompson was made GM.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
In retrospect first-time GM may be exhibiting insecurities manifesting itself in the hiring of a preemie HC who won't overshadow his accomplishments.


That is just beyond foolish. You don't have any success in the NFL knowingly signing lesser people on the field or on the sidelines. If you really think McKenzie is that insecure I would suggest you know absolutely nothing about him. Linebackers just aren't wired that way. Confused
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
In retrospect first-time GM may be exhibiting insecurities manifesting itself in the hiring of a preemie HC who won't overshadow his accomplishments.


That is just beyond foolish. You don't have any success in the NFL knowingly signing lesser people on the field or on the sidelines. If you really think McKenzie is that insecure I would suggest you know absolutely nothing about him. Linebackers just aren't wired that way. Confused


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIL9srAp_Oo
Ok, Mr. Terry Tate aka Office Linebacker. If you would stop snacking on nails and bolts for a second, tough guy, perhaps if you had more experience in the corporate world you could relate to how a linebacker's mentality isn't applicable in the boardroom and how the unfamiliarity of a different skill set could manifest itself as insecurity.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Project manager for 5 years (Providian Financial - Acquisitions) and football coach for 15. I think I'm quite qualified to make that assessment. LOL. I see whered you were going with your comment but this is the NFL and not the corporate world. You have to realize that Reggie's success is directly tied to Allen's success. So why in the hell would he take a lesser guy in his eyes and cut his own throat?

Your statement is absolutely flawed.
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Last edited by DOCLEW 28 on Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good gawd. Watching the game again and the first guy that needs to be purged from this roster is Matt Giordano. He has been around far too long with his glaring lack of talent. He is living a charmed NFL life. This guy is absolutely HORRIBLE.

On the flip side it was interesting to see Cristo Billikidi getting quality reps early in the game. These are the types of young players that need to play and develop so they can be ready when we turn this thing around. It is in stark contrast to what we are showing in the secondary.
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ch8878


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Project manager for 5 years (Providian Financial - Acquisitions) and football coach for 15. I think I'm quite qualified to make that assessment. LOL. I see whered you were going with your comment but this is the NFL and not the corporate world. You have to realize that Reggie's success is directly tied to Allen's success. So why in the hell would he take a lesser guy in his eyes and cut his own throat?

Your statement is absolutely flawed.


I was under the impression you were a cop. Darn, a lot of good references gone to waste. If you don't think the NFL is a corporation you have grossly underestimated why Goodell was brought in. In no way did suggest that McKenzie would purposely hire someone incompetent what I am suggesting is that McKenzie hired what he thinks is young coach on the rise that they can grow into their respective positions together rather than hire a veteran HC with a reputation that could possibly command more informal power with an inexperienced owner than he would like. Perhaps, part of the reason McKenzie let Hue go was that he was uncomfortable working with the man that Al Davis obvious had a close relationship with. McKenzie wants his hands on every aspect of the organization.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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attack_in_s/b


Joined: 11 Aug 2010
Posts: 508
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Project manager for 5 years (Providian Financial - Acquisitions) and football coach for 15. I think I'm quite qualified to make that assessment. LOL. I see whered you were going with your comment but this is the NFL and not the corporate world. You have to realize that Reggie's success is directly tied to Allen's success. So why in the hell would he take a lesser guy in his eyes and cut his own throat?

Your statement is absolutely flawed.


I was under the impression you were a cop. Darn, a lot of good references gone to waste. If you don't think the NFL is a corporation you have grossly underestimated why Goodell was brought in. In no way did suggest that McKenzie would purposely hire someone incompetent what I am suggesting is that McKenzie hired what he thinks is young coach on the rise that they can grow into their respective positions together rather than hire a veteran HC with a reputation that could possibly command more informal power with an inexperienced owner than he would like. Perhaps, part of the reason McKenzie let Hue go was that he was uncomfortable working with the man that Al Davis obvious had a close relationship with. McKenzie wants his hands on every aspect of the organization.


Totally agreed. Not that RM hired someone he thought would fail, but someone that wouldn't create a power struggle. Hiring a coach with a good track record/lots of experience inevitably leads to power struggles... especially with a losing team like ours... difference of opinions as to which way the team should go. DA being a first time head coach, is going to assume only the role of a coach. The premiere coaches in this league have their hands in many different aspects of the organization. Not to say DA is a pawn, however, it does seem like the move to fire hue in favor of DA was a move to secure decision making power explicitly to RM.

Also, i always hate the rep of "offensive/defensive genius".... the coaches don't control how the players play. Historically, these reps are totally interchangeable based on the talent they are working with. For example, when Tony Dungy started in Tampa, he was considered a defensive genius... goes to Indy and becomes an offensive genius... why? Because Tampa had a good defense and Indy had Peyton. Just like coaches take a lot of the blame for a teams failure, they also get credited heavily for the teams areas of success. I highly doubt DA was a defensive genius in Denver... he just had a good defense to work with. Can't expect him to come in and be a defensive genius... he doesn't have the talent to work with.

I don't hold DA accountable for our failures... i really don't think there are many coaches in this league that could make our defense good given our personell. What i do criticize DA for is being conservative.

Not to get too much into this but why not start Pryor? At this point we are basically lobbying for a good draft spot now... We are getting killed already, starting pryor isn't gonna make things any worse, it's basically unanimous that Palmer isn't our QBoTF, imo he isn't earning his starting job either. Im not sure why we have written off Pryor as a possible QBoTF, he's looked promising in preseason, he's got all the physical tools. Worst case scenario, he comes in and plays poorly... we still lose... At least now we know that our QBoTF isn't already on the roster...

We don't owe Palmer anything, definitely not a starting job when he continues to be a turnover machine...
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Nodisrespect


Joined: 28 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any one seen this article?
http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/Dead-money-disasters.html
Quote:
Oakland Raiders ($28,114,475-Dead Money; $124,105,427-Adjusted Cap)
Reggie McKenzie, who was hired as general manager in January, inherited a mess because of the previous regime’s penchant for signing bad player-friendly contracts. The Raiders began the offseason with $145 million committed towards this season’s cap, which is $120.6 million, when they only had approximately $3 million of cap room to carryover from the 2011 season. In order to reduce their cap obligations by approximately $22 million to comply with cap rules, McKenzie restructured (Carson Palmer, Richard Seymour, etc.) and terminated contracts.
Addressing the three-year, $31.5 million contract (with $20 million in guarantees) Stanford Routt received in 2011 before the lockout, which made him the NFL’s third highest paid cornerback (by average yearly salary), was at the top of McKenzie’s list. Oakland compounded their problem after the lockout by restructuring Routt’s contract to create cap room in which two voidable years were added at $11.5 million each to help with the proration. With Routt’s 2012 base salary becoming fully guaranteed on February 10th, McKenzie released him despite his contract containing a $5 million fully guaranteed fifth day of the league year 2012 roster bonus without an offset.
Most NFL contract guarantees contain language which allows a club to reduce the amount they owe a released player by the amount of his new deal with another club (an “offset”). Since Routt’s contract doesn’t have this language, he has been getting paid this year from both the Raiders and the Chiefs. Routt counts $10,785,334 in dead money on Oakland’s cap. Without the restructuring, his dead money would only be $3,333,334. Routt made $15 million for the one season he played under this deal.
Kamerion Wimbley is the other major dead money charge for the Raiders at $9.9 million. McKenzie attempted to renegotiate the five-year, $48.5 million contract Wimbley received last year, but didn’t have much leverage because $6.5 million of his 2012 base salary was fully guaranteed without an offset at signing. He released Wimbley on March 16th, a day before the remaining $4.5 million of his $11 million 2012 base salary, his $11 million 2013 base salary and $2 million of his 2014 base salary became fully guaranteed. Kevin Boss and John Henderson, who were also released, are receiving $2 million and $1.5 million payments, respectively, from the Raiders this year because of salary guarantees without offsets.
There are also 12 players with more than $5 million in dead money this year. They are included in the following chart.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Project manager for 5 years (Providian Financial - Acquisitions) and football coach for 15. I think I'm quite qualified to make that assessment. LOL. I see whered you were going with your comment but this is the NFL and not the corporate world. You have to realize that Reggie's success is directly tied to Allen's success. So why in the hell would he take a lesser guy in his eyes and cut his own throat?

Your statement is absolutely flawed.


I was under the impression you were a cop. Darn, a lot of good references gone to waste. If you don't think the NFL is a corporation you have grossly underestimated why Goodell was brought in. In no way did suggest that McKenzie would purposely hire someone incompetent what I am suggesting is that McKenzie hired what he thinks is young coach on the rise that they can grow into their respective positions together rather than hire a veteran HC with a reputation that could possibly command more informal power with an inexperienced owner than he would like. Perhaps, part of the reason McKenzie let Hue go was that he was uncomfortable working with the man that Al Davis obvious had a close relationship with. McKenzie wants his hands on every aspect of the organization.


Recession got me. That's why I'm a cop and no longer a project manager. More job security with crime running rampant. LOL!!!

Much better explanation by the way. And Mckenzie SHOULD have his hands in everything. He is the GM for goodness sake. I have to believe Reggie when he said that he wanted to bring in his own guy. I don't think its a matter of firing a guy that would want too much. Its more a matter of having a guy that shares your vision from day one. That is what the whole hiring process is for. And while the league may be a corportation on the Goodel level, it operates a bit differently on the GM/FO level.
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RunDmc23


Joined: 25 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coach 2007 wrote:
By any chance could Allen be willing to move to D-Coordinator and Gruden be brought back; now that Al is gone?



that would be a dream move right there!!
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khodder


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


The issue with starting to go down that route is that you risk putting yourself back into this exact same situation in another five years time.

You want to add quality and talent to the roster, but free agency is the only way (lack of draft picks), however with the current lack of talent on the roster and low win totals Free Agents really don't want to come play for you unless you provide them with a great remuneration package.

It is a tough cycle to break out of and the best way to do that is the build via the draft, make small moves in free agency and don't tie up cap room in that area. You then extend the players that you hit on in the draft while adding more and more talent via the draft.

Only issue with that is that it is a long and slow process that can take 5+ years to fully cycle through to a point where the talent is at a good enough level to begin to attract some of the better free agents at an acceptable level of remuneration.

Looking for an instant fix is often the fastest way to digging and even deeper hole.
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Rolni


Joined: 08 Jun 2008
Posts: 2551
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


The issue with starting to go down that route is that you risk putting yourself back into this exact same situation in another five years time.

You want to add quality and talent to the roster, but free agency is the only way (lack of draft picks), however with the current lack of talent on the roster and low win totals Free Agents really don't want to come play for you unless you provide them with a great remuneration package.

It is a tough cycle to break out of and the best way to do that is the build via the draft, make small moves in free agency and don't tie up cap room in that area. You then extend the players that you hit on in the draft while adding more and more talent via the draft.

Only issue with that is that it is a long and slow process that can take 5+ years to fully cycle through to a point where the talent is at a good enough level to begin to attract some of the better free agents at an acceptable level of remuneration.

Looking for an instant fix is often the fastest way to digging and even deeper hole.

We have to use FA, but not in the late Al Davis way.
We will have to look at young promising talents, who can't get enough playing time on their current team, because of a better veteran.
We will have to be really active on the UDFA market again...

I think we will have 1 or max 2 bigger FA signings (like the Brisiel one) and a few (Wheeler type) low deals...
We need more Burris type draft picks and more Streater type UDFA finds...

That's the only way out
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