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(re) Building the Oakland Raiders
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22622
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
Posts: 10894
Location: East Oakland
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RunDmc23 wrote:
coach 2007 wrote:
By any chance could Allen be willing to move to D-Coordinator and Gruden be brought back; now that Al is gone?



that would be a dream move right there!!


Yeah the kind of dream where you wake up in 5 years and you have no talent because Gruden is a horrible talent evaluator of young ball players. Here and in Tampa the cupboards were left bare of young talent when he left. Just give this Gruden talk a rest already. Rolling Eyes
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


I was thinking the same thing.
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


I was thinking the same thing.


Not to mention, I can see Bush and Satele netting some compensatory picks. Satele for sure. He's been a solid starter for Indy and signed a pretty nice deal.
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Dat Raider


Joined: 20 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would love to get Rex Ryan as our DC once he gets kicked out of New York. Once we get some talent during the off-season to add to our defense, he will be the perfect person for us to move forward with.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

attack_in_s/b wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
Project manager for 5 years (Providian Financial - Acquisitions) and football coach for 15. I think I'm quite qualified to make that assessment. LOL. I see whered you were going with your comment but this is the NFL and not the corporate world. You have to realize that Reggie's success is directly tied to Allen's success. So why in the hell would he take a lesser guy in his eyes and cut his own throat?

Your statement is absolutely flawed.


I was under the impression you were a cop. Darn, a lot of good references gone to waste. If you don't think the NFL is a corporation you have grossly underestimated why Goodell was brought in. In no way did suggest that McKenzie would purposely hire someone incompetent what I am suggesting is that McKenzie hired what he thinks is young coach on the rise that they can grow into their respective positions together rather than hire a veteran HC with a reputation that could possibly command more informal power with an inexperienced owner than he would like. Perhaps, part of the reason McKenzie let Hue go was that he was uncomfortable working with the man that Al Davis obvious had a close relationship with. McKenzie wants his hands on every aspect of the organization.


Totally agreed. Not that RM hired someone he thought would fail, but someone that wouldn't create a power struggle. Hiring a coach with a good track record/lots of experience inevitably leads to power struggles... especially with a losing team like ours... difference of opinions as to which way the team should go. DA being a first time head coach, is going to assume only the role of a coach. The premiere coaches in this league have their hands in many different aspects of the organization. Not to say DA is a pawn, however, it does seem like the move to fire hue in favor of DA was a move to secure decision making power explicitly to RM.

Also, i always hate the rep of "offensive/defensive genius".... the coaches don't control how the players play. Historically, these reps are totally interchangeable based on the talent they are working with. For example, when Tony Dungy started in Tampa, he was considered a defensive genius... goes to Indy and becomes an offensive genius... why? Because Tampa had a good defense and Indy had Peyton. Just like coaches take a lot of the blame for a teams failure, they also get credited heavily for the teams areas of success. I highly doubt DA was a defensive genius in Denver... he just had a good defense to work with. Can't expect him to come in and be a defensive genius... he doesn't have the talent to work with.

I don't hold DA accountable for our failures... i really don't think there are many coaches in this league that could make our defense good given our personell. What i do criticize DA for is being conservative.

Not to get too much into this but why not start Pryor? At this point we are basically lobbying for a good draft spot now... We are getting killed already, starting pryor isn't gonna make things any worse, it's basically unanimous that Palmer isn't our QBoTF, imo he isn't earning his starting job either. Im not sure why we have written off Pryor as a possible QBoTF, he's looked promising in preseason, he's got all the physical tools. Worst case scenario, he comes in and plays poorly... we still lose... At least now we know that our QBoTF isn't already on the roster...

We don't owe Palmer anything, definitely not a starting job when he continues to be a turnover machine...


Excellent post. I just wanted to add a few points:

The benefit or bane of the salary cap, depending on your perspective, is that no team can shore up every weakness. Because every team has a weakness it creates parity through matchups. When a "genius" is brought in their objective is create value. Let me explain using examples:

While Dungy was an excellent defensive coach he virtually knows nothing about offense evident during his tenure in Tampa. While in Tampa the offense struggled while Dungy spent most of his capital (ie:draft picks) on defensive players (Sapp, Brooks, Lynch,etc). He was fired in part because of his inability to create value in the field of his expertise. When Dungy went to Indy Peyton & OC Tom Moore had full command of the offense while Dungy focused on creating value on defense. The Tampa 2 creates value because you don't need high priced CBs to run it. In addition, value was created by capitalizing on drafting smaller players that fell in the draft (Freeney, Sanders). When the Colts had the lead during his tenure they were a dangerous team because all they had to do was pin their ears back and get after the QB but if teams ran the ball at them they were done (Steelers/Bettis, Pats/Dillon).

Gruden took over for Dungy in Tampa. Gruden has built a career by creating value at the QB position (Brad Johnson, Gannon). However, Gruden has proven unable to develop QBs in his complicated system.

Kubiak creates value through cheaper smaller OL who run his system.

The question at hand is where does current Raider HC Allen create value? Can he draft a nondescript interior DL and get more out of him than he should? or can he draft a small DE like Mingo or Moore and get Von Miller-like return? or was Knapp brought in to create value on the OL by using the ZBS? The jury is still out because we have yet to be able to identify the strength of his defensive philosophy.

Secondly, in regards to Palmer. I have yet to see any indication that the Raiders have any waivering confidence in Palmer. I don't think they are concerned about the QBotF because I believe they are under the impression that they are set at QB for the next few seasons and can concentrate on other weak links. Thank goodness Palmer is here. Desperately seeking a QB in a weak QB class with all of the other glaring needs would be a recipe for complete disaster. Granted Palmer had back-to-back bad games. However, generally speaking most football people (ie: people who run teams & evaluate players) don't think that Palmer is the reason the Raiders are losing games. Stop believing that the organization views things the way you do.

What's frustrating is why the pro-Pryor camp cannot see how installing Pryor while the offense is already struggling with the current offense would be a HUGE setback as the entire offensive unit would have to learn an entire new package mid-season.
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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oakdb36


Joined: 02 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
The jury is still out because we have yet to be able to identify the strength of his defensive philosophy.


Indeed. I actually have yet to identify his defensive philosophy, let alone the strength.

Dungy was a tampa 2 guy. Gruden was a WCO guy from his days in SF, GB and Philadelphia. Kubiak was a ZBS guy having learned under Shanahan.

Allen has been on the coaching staff of Wade Philips (one gap 3-4), Greg Williams (blitzing 4-3) and John Fox (4-3 relying mainly on a 4 man rush). I have no idea what Allen's philosophy is. From what he said in the offseason, he's closer to Greg Williams.
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TiberiusRising


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dat Raider wrote:
I would love to get Rex Ryan as our DC once he gets kicked out of New York. Once we get some talent during the off-season to add to our defense, he will be the perfect person for us to move forward with.

Now that would be interesting. Not sure he fits the type of guy DA or Reggie would want though.

Still mad we didnt make a big push to get Mike Nolan.
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DOCLEW 28


Joined: 10 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


I was thinking the same thing.


Not to mention, I can see Bush and Satele netting some compensatory picks. Satele for sure. He's been a solid starter for Indy and signed a pretty nice deal.


I hadn't thought about those two. But they will probably be offset by Briesel or someone else. I can see a 5th ot 6th at best. We are so bad that everyone we signed is starting for us.
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early43


Joined: 06 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


I was thinking the same thing.


Not to mention, I can see Bush and Satele netting some compensatory picks. Satele for sure. He's been a solid starter for Indy and signed a pretty nice deal.


Just great. Not only did we sign this bum to our team, but his presence will now cost us a comp pick in the offseason. Talk about a gift that keeps on giving.

I hadn't thought about those two. But they will probably be offset by Briesel or someone else. I can see a 5th ot 6th at best. We are so bad that everyone we signed is starting for us.
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DOCLEW 28 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


I was thinking the same thing.


Not to mention, I can see Bush and Satele netting some compensatory picks. Satele for sure. He's been a solid starter for Indy and signed a pretty nice deal.


I hadn't thought about those two. But they will probably be offset by Briesel or someone else. I can see a 5th ot 6th at best. We are so bad that everyone we signed is starting for us.


Bush, Satele, Campbell all have started at some point and had their contracts expire naturally. But Wheeler and Brisiel alone will offset at least 2 of them
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


Bush
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Silver&Black88


Joined: 24 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
big_palooka wrote:
ch8878 wrote:
With 4 draft picks the Raiders won't be building through the draft next year they have no choice, but to do it through Free agents.


Where do you get that number?

1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, 7th (Murphy)

Am I missing something?


Bush


No, I'm pretty sure BP's right on. Those are the normal allotted picks minus the 2nd for Palmer and the 5th for Curry and plus the 7th for Murphy.

We aren't getting any comp picks, I don't think. We've signed too many starters from FA like Brisiel, Wheeler, Spencer and Bartell plus role players like Carter, Hagan and Tollefson for us to get anything for the little amount of players we didn't re-sign. Only way we might get more picks outside of a trade is if cutting Curry netted us our 5th again.
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DOCLEW 28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
Only way we might get more picks outside of a trade is if cutting Curry netted us our 5th again.


Man we could only hope. But I think losing that 5th is a done deal.
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Baggabonez


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TiberiusRising wrote:
Dat Raider wrote:
I would love to get Rex Ryan as our DC once he gets kicked out of New York. Once we get some talent during the off-season to add to our defense, he will be the perfect person for us to move forward with.

Now that would be interesting. Not sure he fits the type of guy DA or Reggie would want though.

Still mad we didnt make a big push to get Mike Nolan.


While I also would have liked the Raiders to pursue more well established coordinators, I realize that the NFL is also about relationships. I wonder how Mike Nolan would feel about working for Allen when he probably feels Allen should be his understudy? It would be a mistake to believe that compensation is the only factor of consideration.

I would like the Raiders to focus on attracting coordinators that are proven commodities but who are at a point in their careers where they are no longer ambitious and seek the stability of being a long-time coordinator (just examples not who i'd want: tom moore, saunders, wade, turner, lebeau)
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Nodisrespect on building inside out wrote:
teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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