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(re) Building the Oakland Raiders
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 22240
Location: ATL
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:38 am    Post subject: (re) Building the Oakland Raiders Reply with quote

A look at how Thompson rebuilt the Packers as perhaps a blueprint to Mckenzie's task at hand:

http://www.raiders1.ninjagoro.com/2012/a-look-at-how-ted-thompson-re-built-the-packers/

Interesting notes:

Arrow Year 2 was the year Thompson went with an impact FA in Woodson.

Arrow The Packers approach has been similar to the Patriots. More picks spread across the draft, more chances to hit on players as their first round track record is spotty.

Arrow The similarities of the Packers and Raiders is eery in year 1.

So if this is a blueprint of what to expect of McKenzie, how will he work the draft to acquire more picks. Could DMAC be traded ala Javon Walker to land the team extra pics?

The biggest question I have is, what to expect not having an elite QB at the helm in a passing league.

How much of the Packers success with role player types has been because of the QB carrying this team as only the truly elite QBs can.
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Preacher


Joined: 20 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder the same thing. I like CP3o, and think Pryor could be serviceable, but we do not have an elite QB. How do we find one? Draft.....we sucked at the QB draft? FA- did good with Gannon on some of the older guys, but now???
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ZoomWaffle


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Preacher wrote:
we do not have an elite QB. How do we find one? Draft.....we sucked at the QB draft? FA- did good with Gannon on some of the older guys, but now???


Just because we missed on the one QB we've taken in the 1st in the last 20 years doesn't mean a thing for our future. We have a new GM and HC making the picks, new scouts, and a new FO. Everything is different. I doubt we go QB this year unless we trade down, but with the way Palmer has played and the way we desperately need defensive help, I don't see us going any direction other than a defensive player in the 1st.
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I wouldn't trade Pryor for any prospect in this years draft. Quote me on that
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great perspective! A couple ironies I wanted to point out:

• I was planning on making a similar comparison of McKenzie to Ted Thompson except with a different perspective. One glaring omission to the writers timeline is the fact that in 2008 fans were calling for his head and it was suggested Thompson was on the way out citing his abysmal track record with 1st rd picks among other questionable moves. Currently, the FO has underperformed considering they have an elite QB. Without having the good fortune of drafting Rodgers in 2005 Thompson would be scout for the Lions right about now.

• Another irony is that BP is always dismissing the credibility of bloggers. . . except when they agree with his position

• The major difference between the Raiders and GB is uniqueness of carrying so much dead money while also having limited draft picks that will take multiple years to alleviate.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Coattailing on what BP has started, I think it would note-worthy to compare HC Allen to HOU HC Gary Kuibak, who until just LAST SEASON was on a serious hot seat. The ZBS is highly effective, however the learning curve is steep, the collateral damage is wide spread and the transition price is high. The race between whether Allen can get his system in place before he gets whacked is on. Imo, Allen does not have the credibility credit of Kubiak, who was long sought after as a HC and will get a shorter leash. By all accounts Allen is a good coach but I don't like his odds.

I don't think McKenzie is incompetent, but I am concerned about how much risk he has incurred installing a difficult system with an inexperienced coach. In retrospect first-time GM may be exhibiting insecurities manifesting itself in the hiring of a preemie HC who won't overshadow his accomplishments. Two of my favorites Fisher and Del Rio, who were quite unpopular here, look like awfully good choices at the moment.
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Darkness


Joined: 24 Jun 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
Coattailing on what BP has started, I think it would note-worthy to compare HC Allen to HOU HC Gary Kuibak, who until just LAST SEASON was on a serious hot seat. The ZBS is highly effective, however the learning curve is steep, the collateral damage is wide spread and the transition price is high. The race between whether Allen can get his system in place before he gets whacked is on. Imo, Allen does not have the credibility credit of Kubiak, who was long sought after as a HC and will get a shorter leash. By all accounts Allen is a good coach but I don't like his odds.

I don't think McKenzie is incompetent, but I am concerned about how much risk he has incurred installing a difficult system with an inexperienced coach. In retrospect first-time GM may be exhibiting insecurities manifesting itself in the hiring of a preemie HC who won't overshadow his accomplishments. Two of my favorites Fisher and Del Rio, who were quite unpopular here, look like awfully good choices at the moment.


This is what I'm most interested in. Improving talent is the same for every GM around the league. Hit on your draft picks and make the right signings (Briesel, Tollefson). There's not too much to talk about there.

McKenzie's 1st year as GM has already been a waist due to hiring a HC that wasn't able to implement his systems heading into the future. If Allen keeps his coordinator(s) around, he'll be on the hot seat. If Allen hires the wrong coordinator(s) for the 2nd off-season in a row, he'll be on the hot seat. That puts the rebuilding process in a bind. Without good coaches leading the way, this team isn't heading anywhere.
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still dont see oakland as being an attractive place for FA's. thats one of the main differences between oak and gb.

We are almost forced to build through the draft imo
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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RaiderX


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
i still dont see oakland as being an attractive place for FA's. thats one of the main differences between oak and gb.

We are almost forced to build through the draft imo


Somewhat agree. At the time Green Bay wasn't either. I think they were the only team to offer Woodson a decent deal. Not like we had the money to attract big names last season anyways.

This team is gonna be rebuilt through the draft though. It will start with some players being dealt and Reggie dealing during the draft to gain more picks. The obvious move is trading back in the 1st round. 2 years in a row without a 2nd round pick is probably something McKenzie doesn't want.

This team is gonna be redone from the inside out. DLine needs to broken up. Kelly needs to be gonna, same for Seymour unless he takes a paycut.

The Oline needs to get stronger. I doubt Brisiel is gone but an upgrade at RT and LG is needed. See where Bergstrom fits best. Either move Veldheer to RT and draft a LT or continue the revolving door of free agent/draft picks at RT.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
i still dont see oakland as being an attractive place for FA's. thats one of the main differences between oak and gb.

We are almost forced to build through the draft imo


GB's defense is quite horrid. As a defensive FA they aren't much more attractive than Oakland. In addition the weather is miserable and the town is sleepy. Now that I think about it perhaps McKenzie sold himself as a small market specialist. Besides I don't think GB are big players in FA because of the aforementioned.

In the past Davis had to compensate for his poor drafts and CA's oppressive state tax (9.3%) by paying the vig in FA. There is no hometown discount when you also factor in state tax.
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Mancrush 2014: DE Clowney, WR Watkins, OT Robinson, LB Shazier, FS Brooks, TE ASJ, OG Jackson, WR Janis, OT Lucas, OT Tiny
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big_palooka


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:


• Another irony is that BP is always dismissing the credibility of bloggers. . . except when they agree with his position


Except I have no position in this argument other than patience. I only posted this because someone took the time to breakdown Thompson in Green Bay and I thought it would make for good discussion for our forum.

So please, step off the high horse, I have no position. Just a wait and see approach.

I guess my position is not being a nonsense cry baby over how things are going and not calling the FO out when they haven't even scratched the surface.
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bitty


Joined: 19 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
i still dont see oakland as being an attractive place for FA's. thats one of the main differences between oak and gb.

We are almost forced to build through the draft imo


GB's defense is quite horrid. As a defensive FA they aren't much more attractive than Oakland. In addition the weather is miserable and the town is sleepy. Now that I think about it perhaps McKenzie sold himself as a small market specialist. Besides I don't think GB are big players in FA because of the aforementioned.

In the past Davis had to compensate for his poor drafts and CA's oppressive state tax (9.3%) by paying the vig in FA. There is no hometown discount when you also factor in state tax.


I thought Connecticut was high as 6.6% you guys are being robbed. How is it possible that your state representatives got reelected?
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bitty


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allen can forget about running a ZBS.
Report: League will consider abolishing all blocks below the waist in 2013

Instead, King believes that the chop block, which is legal in some situations, will be eliminated, and that downfield cut blocks (like the one that tore Chiefs safety Eric Berry’s ACL last year) will be banned.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/23/report-league-will-consider-abolishing-all-blocks-below-the-waist-in-2013/
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coach 2007


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By any chance could Allen be willing to move to D-Coordinator and Gruden be brought back; now that Al is gone?
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big_palooka


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

coach 2007 wrote:
By any chance could Allen be willing to move to D-Coordinator and Gruden be brought back; now that Al is gone?


Why do people seriously ask these dumb questions??

Let's get Gruden back 12 years later. Move Allen to DC and hire Jackson back as OC. Maybe Harbaugh will come back and coach QBs?? What do you guys think??
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DirtyHarry


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitty wrote:
Allen can forget about running a ZBS.
Report: League will consider abolishing all blocks below the waist in 2013

Instead, King believes that the chop block, which is legal in some situations, will be eliminated, and that downfield cut blocks (like the one that tore Chiefs safety Eric Berry’s ACL last year) will be banned.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/23/report-league-will-consider-abolishing-all-blocks-below-the-waist-in-2013/

How the hell are smaller running backs supposed to block then ?
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RaisinBran


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Packers were already a good team when Thompson became GM.

The Raiders were not a good team when Reggie took over, and still aren't.

Unfair to expect the same results from Reggie, since he's in a terrible situation to begin with.
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