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Is Desean Jackson a luxury we canít afford?
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Is Desean Jackson a luxury we can't afford?
Yes
21%
 21%  [ 3 ]
No
78%
 78%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 14

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RainbowCarebear


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Djax is fine. His speed is special, you don't give that away.
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TheKingDP


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
In the red zone, more often that not, it's about physicality, size, and jumping. Were you not in shock and awe that the Eagles actually ran a fade route? What does our reaction tell us? That the Eagles don't run fade routes very often.


Shock and awe?? I almost had a stroke. The left side of my face went numb & I had to hit "Info" on my remote control because I wasn't really sure if I was watching the Eagles playing. Then I called Harold Carmichael "Howard Carmichael".. I was all-types of "shocked and awed"..
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I want an Eagles WR that can take a hit and get into the endzone like this:

Play starts at 1:31

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012112503/2012/REG12/titans@jaguars/watch#menu=highlights&tab=recap
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hockey5djh wrote:
I want an Eagles WR that can take a hit and get into the endzone like this:

Play starts at 1:31

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012112503/2012/REG12/titans@jaguars/watch#menu=highlights&tab=recap


Or make crucial plays like Torrey Smith in overtime.
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Hockey5djh


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
I want an Eagles WR that can take a hit and get into the endzone like this:

Play starts at 1:31

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012112503/2012/REG12/titans@jaguars/watch#menu=highlights&tab=recap


Or make crucial plays like Torrey Smith in overtime.


Torrey Smith wouldn't help our team IMO, he's the same type of player Jackson is. I'm looking for a yards after contact type of WR.
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Phire


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hockey5djh wrote:
Phire wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
I want an Eagles WR that can take a hit and get into the endzone like this:

Play starts at 1:31

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012112503/2012/REG12/titans@jaguars/watch#menu=highlights&tab=recap


Or make crucial plays like Torrey Smith in overtime.


Torrey Smith wouldn't help our team IMO, he's the same type of player Jackson is. I'm looking for a yards after contact type of WR.


Yeah, but I want a guy who can make that kind of play, not exactly Torrey Smith.

Last weekend Maclin had NO catches and Jackson had 2 for 5 yards.

Unacceptable.
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Meco


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
Phire wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
I want an Eagles WR that can take a hit and get into the endzone like this:

Play starts at 1:31

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012112503/2012/REG12/titans@jaguars/watch#menu=highlights&tab=recap


Or make crucial plays like Torrey Smith in overtime.


Torrey Smith wouldn't help our team IMO, he's the same type of player Jackson is. I'm looking for a yards after contact type of WR.


Yeah, but I want a guy who can make that kind of play, not exactly Torrey Smith.

Last weekend Maclin had NO catches and Jackson had 2 for 5 yards.

Unacceptable.


Seriously? Over one week? Laughing
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Phire


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meco wrote:
Phire wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
Phire wrote:
Hockey5djh wrote:
I want an Eagles WR that can take a hit and get into the endzone like this:

Play starts at 1:31

http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2012112503/2012/REG12/titans@jaguars/watch#menu=highlights&tab=recap


Or make crucial plays like Torrey Smith in overtime.


Torrey Smith wouldn't help our team IMO, he's the same type of player Jackson is. I'm looking for a yards after contact type of WR.


Yeah, but I want a guy who can make that kind of play, not exactly Torrey Smith.

Last weekend Maclin had NO catches and Jackson had 2 for 5 yards.

Unacceptable.


Seriously? Over one week? Laughing


Has a starting duo at WR ever amassed just 5 yards between the two of them over a full game?
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BLick12


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phire wrote:
Meco, your whole quip here can be settled by making a few simple clarifications.

1. I will defend Maclin's production and effectiveness under the proper conditions. I don't think he's as bad as Eagles fans make him out to be.
2. With the above being said, it is not of my belief that the Eagles can't improve at wide receiver. The whole Hakeem Nicks/Jeremy Maclin debate was under the concession that Hakeem Nicks was a better receiver than Jeremy Maclin. I am for the advancement of this team. If we can improve at WR, then I want it to be done. I believe Jeremy to be a decent receiver but I'd like to see a great receiver wearing an Eagles jersey if we can get it done.
3. With the second point being said, Jackson having signed a contract, signing Maclin too would give us our two starting wide outs. Since I am of the belief that we can improve at WR, then I don't feel we should lock ourselves to being stuck with two receivers, neither of whom are great.
4. Never did I say Maclin and Jackson couldn't co-exist. I said it's counterproductive to do so, and I stand by that. If we can maximize the WR position at Maclin's expense, then I'm for that. And I'm a Maclin fan.

I am also of the camp who believes Dominique Rogers-Cromartie to be an excellent young cornerback, but I don't want the Eagles to re-sign him.

It is because I am of the camp who does not mind watching this team bottom feed for a few years and arising from those ashes, not clinging to life on bandages and aspirin, which is what this team is now.

Meco wrote:
Taken out of context, Phire? Sure but do those arguments not apply to this as well?

The Eagles are 3-7. They were 8-8 last year. Things aren't good but you can't just go around blaming everyone on the team and throwing them under the bus. In the grand scheme of things, DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin are the least of our problems. Are they the cause of our inefficient passing game? Hell. No. We've got one of the worst QB situations in the NFL and our offensive line is in shambles. Replacing Maclin and DeSean is like replacing hood ornaments on your car because your engine isn't working, your focus is in the wrong spot.


And I've made that argument before. The reality is just that: the Eagles are 3-7 and probably won't finish 8-8. The team has some serious gut checking to do, and will probably have to let go of some quality players. A few weeks ago I still had hope for this team. Now it is lost. I have acquired the spirit of rebuilding and I want to see this team maximized. Jackson and Maclin might be the hood ornaments, but if the hood ornaments aren't exactly what you expected and you've got the resources to replace your engine and those ornaments? Then sure, why the hell not. Get a new engine, and get some better hood ornaments while you're in the shop.

Quote:
The idea that Maclin and Jackson can't coexist or be an effective receiving duo is nonsensical, nothing more than rhetoric and convoluted ranting from a disenfranchised fan base. It's borderline comical.


Maybe it's all that turkey, but I highly doubt you're reading most of these threads. When you came into this thread with arms swinging I almost thought you were drunk. When Wabbit explicitly asked you to find his quotes that were being labeled "not reasoned" you came up with 15 other posters.

So are you really reading?

Because where did I say they couldn't coexist? They aren't maximized by being on the same field. That is a sentiment I've held for a long time. These guys were being criticized even with McNabb, Kolb, Vick--whomever.

Players peak and they hit slumps. As I brought up as an example, do we take L.J. Smith's best year as an Eagle as to define him as a player? Is Celek as good as his best year, or bad as his worst?

The truth is always somewhere in between. Jackson and Maclin have had good years but not enough of it, and for not long enough. Attribute it to bad QB play? Yes, there is evidence of this. Attribute it to bad OL play? Yes, there is evidence of this.

But for all the bad QB play and bad OL play, there are still plays to be made. The OL blocks sometimes, and even Vick has made good throws sometimes.

The evidence is there. When there are plays to be made, neither Jackson nor Maclin have done much damage. Therefore I think we can improve there. I think even having Dwayne Bowe in the place of Maclin this year would have helped out our offense. If you threaten in the secondary, it takes less pressure up front. Part of the reason why teams are blitzing with reckless abandon is because they know our receivers don't pose any threat. They certainly won't make them pay.

Quote:
For three years ('09-'11) the Eagles were a top 10 passing offense with Jeremy Maclin and DeSean Jackson as the primary options. They've proven over a three year period that they are a perfectly viable receiving combination.


But why does that mean I can't hope for better?

Quote:
And this sort of stereotypical receiving duo that you all are putting forth isn't based in reality, it's purely theoretical. It's white noise. Talk. Zero real life value.


Stereotypical receiving duo? I'm all for having great players on our team. As many as possible. I see Maclin and Jackson as... effective, sure. Good guys, sure. But great? No. I can't call them great. Having an elite receiver will give them favorable match-ups. How is this just talk?

Let's break it down logically:
Jackson is a decent receiver.
Maclin is a decent receiver.
There are better receivers in the league.
Therefore, both Jackson and Maclin can be upgraded.

How is this so difficult?

Quote:
"We need a big, hulking wide receiver to compliment DeSean! This is a cold hard fact! Prove me wrong!"

Okay, I'll prove you wrong rather easily. This is not basketball, your receivers don't play off of one another nearly as much as many of you seem to think. The goal of a receiver is to win on the outside and win one on one match-ups and in the end, it doesn't really matter how it's done (finesse or physical) except for in theory. And both DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin have both proven over the course of the past 4 seasons that they're both able to win one on one match-ups.


...between the 20's. Even this year's offense has no problem moving the ball between the 20's. When we get into the red zone, where do Maclin and Jackson go? They are severely limited in the red zone and honestly I'm shocked and appalled that you even possess the audacity to make these assertions.

In the red zone, more often that not, it's about physicality, size, and jumping. Were you not in shock and awe that the Eagles actually ran a fade route? What does our reaction tell us? That the Eagles don't run fade routes very often.

What does that say about our starting receivers? Because it wasn't Jackson or Maclin who was given the fade route. And I'm going to guess we won't see either get any this year.

It's because they are limited by their physical attributes in tight spaces. They need space to operate. They can beat 1 on 1 match ups, when they have room to run and reach their top speed.

Not things that are necessarily helpful inside the 20. Just ask Riley Cooper.

So, even if they were exact clones of each other it really wouldn't matter. Notice the word "if" in that sentence because I did not say they're too alike and that is because they aren't. Jeremy Maclin is two inches taller than DeSean Jackson, twenty pounds heavier and he's nearly two tenths of a second slower. They're not alike.
Quote:


They're alike in their limitations, which is what we're focusing on here. Neither can break tackles. Neither fight for toss up balls. Neither can go across the middle and take a hit.

And most daunting of all, neither are all that effective in the red zone, as we've seen even this year when we can move the ball down the field, bad QB or OL granted.

Quote:
40% of DeSean Jackson's targets in 2011 were of the "deep" or "bomb" variety, contrast that with Jeremy Maclin whose deep passes accounted for 30% of his targets. And this season, 32.4% of DeSean's targets are over twenty yards (7th) while Jeremy Maclin's targets over twenty yards only account for 17.7% of his targets (47th). Oh and Jeremy Maclin has thrice registered a catch rate higher than 63.3% for an entire season, DeSean Jackson has not accomplished that once.


They could be used differently, sure. They have different strengths. But they're not different enough. And you could have two Desean Jacksons or two Jeremy Maclins on the same team and their stats over the course of a season would be different.

Such statistical analysis is to be taken with skepticism.

Quote:
They're not even terribly similar, DeSean Jackson is a speed demon wide receiver who excels on deep routes while Jeremy Maclin is a receiver who is fast enough to keep a corner honest but relies mostly on precise route running and separation in tight areas. The only thing they have in common is that neither is a bruiser after the catch (and that appears to be the only thing you're all capable of taking in).


Neither are great. I'm in favor of upgrading the position from two decent guys to one decent guy and one great guy. Why is that so sacrilege?

Quote:
And for all of you who think championship rings are won with king sized receivers:
2011: 6', 5'11" and 5'11". Those are the heights of Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham and Victor Cruz.
2010: 5'11", 6', 6' and 6'2". Those are the heights of Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, James Jones and Jordy Nelson
2009: 6'4", 5'11", 5'9" and 6'2". Those are the heights of Marques Colston, Devery Henderson, Lance Moore and Robert Meachem
2008: 5'10", 6' and 6'. Those are the heights of Santonio Holmes, Hines Ward and Nate Washington.
2007: 6'5", 6'3" and 5'9". Those are the heights of Plaxico Burress, Amani Toomer and Sinorice Moss.
2006: 5'11" and 6'. The heights of Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne.


It's not the size dude, it's how you use it.
They might be of comparable size but:
Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz are better than what we have.
Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, James Jones and Jordy Nelson is a better corps than we have.
Marques Colston, Devery Henderson, Lance Moore, and Robert Meachem is a better corps than we have.
Santonio Holmes and Hines Ward were better than what we have.
Plaxico Burress was better than the guys we have.
Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne were both better than the guys we have.

It's the simple fact that there are plenty of players in the league who play WR that are the same size and yet just simply better players that gives me hope and reason to want to upgrade the position.

Just because you are a fan of Maclin and Jackson, why does it preclude you from upgrading the position? I think both guys can be effective, both guys can produce, but neither guys will ever dominate.

Neither Jackson nor Maclin, whether it be McNabb, Kolb, Vick, or Foles--makes plays for their quarterback. Not the way just about every guy you listed before with comparable sizes have.

Quote:
And you can keep looking down the line for yourselves. The size of your receivers has absolutely no correlation to the winning of superbowls.


You're right, it doesn't. Instead, dominant receivers who beat defenders in more ways than one and make plays do. Champions. Not Maclin or Jackson.

Quote:
PS - Phire, remember all those times you were arguing in favor of our skill position players? All those pictures and tweets from experts that I showed you and things you posted showing and telling us that our players were getting open? Remember those. Yeah, me too. So yeah, I'd blame QB regression more than I'd blame WR regression but lets call that a hunch.


Your inability to acknowledge that there could be more than one moving part at a time is severely limiting your logical cohesion in these arguments.

One can defend a player and simultaneously believe the player can be upgraded.
One can acknowledge QB regression and simultaneously expect more of his WRs.

The simple matter of the fact is that if the Eagles are going to rebuild, then why cut ourselves short? Upgrade everywhere we can. If we have an opportunity to start from scratch, why shackle ourselves to Jackson and Maclin? Why not Jackson and Bowe? Why not Jackson and whomever is the next big thing at WR?

I am for improving the Philadelphia Eagles. I don't see our receivers to be great players. Therefore I believe we can improve the WR position which will subsequently improve the Philadelphia Eagles.

Try to wrap your head around that one, I dare you, but don't hurt yourself.


This was one of the worst servings this football forum has ever seen.
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Meco


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, I wasn't going to keep this debate going but since BLick hurt my ego I'll jump back in Laughing

It would appear that Phire believes these things:
1. Jeremy Maclin and DeSean Jackson are largely responsible for red-zone issues
2. Keeping Jackson and Maclin is counterproductive and while they can coexist, he doesn't think they should because it isn't a good combination.
3. Receivers play a big role in winning and losing games

And that is where we're disagreeing.

I blame red-zone inefficiency on play calling and a scattershot QB who can't zip balls into tight windows and throw people open when the field gets shorter. There are plenty of small receivers who haven't been an albatross on the neck of their teams in the red-zone. Get a decent QB who can operate with precision and you'll see the receiver play improve in the red-zone as well.

And I don't know why you're saying that Jeremy Maclin doesn't produce in the red-zone, thats just factually wrong. He's got 12 red-zone TDs the last 3 seasons.

DeSean Jackson and Jeremy Maclin haven't been very productive this season and it appears to me that Phire is stuck on that. Prior to this season they were a perfectly fine receiving duo for three seasons. They do not need improving because they've shown they can be effective in the past, there are bigger holes to fill and receivers aren't key to winning games, they're hood ornaments, accessories. Receivers are not essential to winning games and on top of that Maclin and Jackson have shown that they can coexist and that they can coexist well when they have a competent supporting cast.

There are better receivers out there but we do not need them. There are bigger holes to fill at QB and along the offensive line that more closely correlate with the win column more than wide receivers do. And on top of having more important holes to fill, WR play is directly tied to OL and QB play so if you fill those holes you'll see the wide receiver play improve as well.

Our problems are at QB and OL, not WR.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL @ everyone talking about how poor Maclin and Jackson are for this team as a duo when I was saying that in 2010. But now Maclin and Jackson finally have all around poor production instead of the inflated numbers between the 20's they once had...
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WR is not a "vital" needs for the Eagles. The combo of Jackson and Maclin is obviously "good enough" to get by with, possibly to even flourish a bit at times. The truth is, though, they really don't compliment each other well. If you don't think that's important, then you are forgetting about little things like matchups and situational play, which is what the game has evolved to be all about.

This is not to say that Jackson and Maclin are mirrors of each other. Far from it. Jackson is more of a rich man's Santana Moss and Maclin is more of a poor man's Reggie Wayne. So their skillsets are somewhat different. Where they are the same is in a more general way. Both of their games are based on finesse and speed.

There are really only two teams that have had significant success with all finesse guys outside in the more modern NFL. St. Lous with Martz's "Greatest Show on Turf" had an elite passer in Warner and a fastbreak system that made it all work together. The Colts had arguably the most cerebral QB of all time running the offense, who happened to be an elite passer as well. Further, the components (Holt & Bruce, Harrison & Wayne) were more talented from a pure WR standpoint (although Jackson is comparable from a raw talent standpoint).

Basically it comes to "Can they be upgraded?" "yes." "Are they a priority to upgrade?" "Not unless an elite talent happens to be there."
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
LOL @ everyone talking about how poor Maclin and Jackson are for this team as a duo when I was saying that in 2010. But now Maclin and Jackson finally have all around poor production instead of the inflated numbers between the 20's they once had...


Wasn't that back when you introduced the forum to the whole theory of 1 gap vs. 2 gap? You are a gem to be coveted by other forums. They are lining up to profess their jealousy that we are able to bask in your wisdom.
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PowerElite


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

killdawabbit wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
LOL @ everyone talking about how poor Maclin and Jackson are for this team as a duo when I was saying that in 2010. But now Maclin and Jackson finally have all around poor production instead of the inflated numbers between the 20's they once had...


Wasn't that back when you introduced the forum to the whole theory of 1 gap vs. 2 gap? You are a gem to be coveted by other forums. They are lining up to profess their jealousy that we are able to bask in your wisdom.


What are you a spambot? You are good for a "gap" post in response to one of my posts everyday now.. Killaspambot...
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killdawabbit


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PowerElite wrote:
killdawabbit wrote:
PowerElite wrote:
LOL @ everyone talking about how poor Maclin and Jackson are for this team as a duo when I was saying that in 2010. But now Maclin and Jackson finally have all around poor production instead of the inflated numbers between the 20's they once had...


Wasn't that back when you introduced the forum to the whole theory of 1 gap vs. 2 gap? You are a gem to be coveted by other forums. They are lining up to profess their jealousy that we are able to bask in your wisdom.


What are you a spambot? You are good for a "gap" post in response to one of my posts everyday now.. Killaspambot...


It's only because I am awed to be able to learn at the feet of a master such as yourself.
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