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2012 Patriots... GOAT offense?
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Will the 2012 offense go down as the GOAT?
Yes, the running game is the deciding factor
14%
 14%  [ 3 ]
No, we'll slow down eventually
85%
 85%  [ 18 ]
Total Votes : 21

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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
tonyto3690 wrote:
If we can churn out first downs, it doesn't matter if we have a deep threat.


I feel this is not serious, no? Super bowl already forgotten? wont always be so easy to just "churn out first downs" when teams dare you to beat em deep and one cannot do it


I must have missed the great deep threats they had in 2001


I do not see a hint of relevancy in your post. One does not the worlds greatest offense ever to win the super bowl, as 2001 proves. Likewise, the best offense ever is not a guarantee to win it all, as 2007 proves. This threads title is clear, and the idea that we are flawless is absurd. This idea that we will always be able to churn out first downs is even sillier. What happens when we cannot churn out first downs? Then what?

Our offense churned out first downs last season too. When they blitz and stacked the box, thus forcing us to beat them deep, we failed. It is a flaw, a real one. It takes a certain type of defense to exploit it, but it is very real flaw. Churning out first downs is hardly a given, and having a deep threat in times of needs to back safeties the f up would be beyond clutch, and is currently absent.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
tonyto3690 wrote:
If we can churn out first downs, it doesn't matter if we have a deep threat.


I feel this is not serious, no? Super bowl already forgotten? wont always be so easy to just "churn out first downs" when teams dare you to beat em deep and one cannot do it


I must have missed the great deep threats they had in 2001


I do not see a hint of relevancy in your post. One does not the worlds greatest offense ever to win the super bowl, as 2001 proves. Likewise, the best offense ever is not a guarantee to win it all, as 2007 proves. This threads title is clear, and the idea that we are flawless is absurd. This idea that we will always be able to churn out first downs is even sillier. What happens when we cannot churn out first downs? Then what?

Our offense churned out first downs last season too. When they blitz and stacked the box, thus forcing us to beat them deep, we failed. It is a flaw, a real one. It takes a certain type of defense to exploit it, but it is very real flaw. Churning out first downs is hardly a given, and having a deep threat in times of needs to back safeties the f up would be beyond clutch, and is currently absent.


My point was that a team can have an effective offense that can move the chains consistently without having a deep threat.

If your favorite player was Welker, you'd be spewing endless nonsense about how a team can't win without an elite slot receiver. Your fetish for a deep threat is nothing more than an extension of your obsession with Moss and Moss-esque players.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
My point was that a team can have an effective offense that can move the chains consistently without having a deep threat.


Which is an entirely irrelevant point in a thread titled "Will the 2012 offense go down as the GOAT?".

No disagreeing with the point you made, it just doesn't belong her. We do not need a deep threat to be effective, but we do need one to be 'flawless' / GOAT.
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mcmurtry86


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
My point was that a team can have an effective offense that can move the chains consistently without having a deep threat.


Which is an entirely irrelevant point in a thread titled "Will the 2012 offense go down as the GOAT?".

No disagreeing with the point you made, it just doesn't belong her. We do not need a deep threat to be effective, but we do need one to be 'flawless' / GOAT.


It belongs here because it was directly in response to your post. Sometimes, in message threads, conversations exist and it's not simply everyone posting direct responses to the title of the thread.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
My point was that a team can have an effective offense that can move the chains consistently without having a deep threat.


Which is an entirely irrelevant point in a thread titled "Will the 2012 offense go down as the GOAT?".

No disagreeing with the point you made, it just doesn't belong her. We do not need a deep threat to be effective, but we do need one to be 'flawless' / GOAT.


It belongs here because it was directly in response to your post. Sometimes, in message threads, conversations exist and it's not simply everyone posting direct responses to the title of the thread.


I see, though my confusion should be easy to understand. I don't disagree, just as I am sure you do not disagree that a solid deep threat certainly would not hurt our offense.
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

samgurl775 wrote:
Pats#1 wrote:
I think it all comes down to what you hold more valuable...

The passing game in 07 was better than the passing game in 12

and

The running game in 12 is better than the running game in 07



Which difference do you think is greater/more important.

I honestly would take this offense over the 07 offense in the playoffs any day. The balance it has is fantastic and not being so one dimensional could have won those last 2 superbowls.
The 2007 pass offense was the greatest of all time. The 2012 rushing game isn't even the best this season. This offense is not the GOAT.


That has nothing to do with the point I'm making. I'm saying that this year's BALANCE is what would make me pick this one over 2007.

We had the GOAT passing offense of all time in 2007 and it ended up meaning nothing in the biggest game of the year because the Giants D knew that they didn't have worry about the run and only two receiving threats in welker and moss. They got solid pressure from the front 4 and then just backed everyone else up into coverage focusing on Moss and welker.

With this years offense they would have to worry about so many more different types of looks.

The passing game this year may not be GOAT but it is looking to be one of the best for quite some time and the running game is much better than average.

So like I said...I'd take that balance over a one dimensional offense any day.
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
mcmurtry86 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
tonyto3690 wrote:
If we can churn out first downs, it doesn't matter if we have a deep threat.


I feel this is not serious, no? Super bowl already forgotten? wont always be so easy to just "churn out first downs" when teams dare you to beat em deep and one cannot do it


I must have missed the great deep threats they had in 2001


I do not see a hint of relevancy in your post. One does not the worlds greatest offense ever to win the super bowl, as 2001 proves. Likewise, the best offense ever is not a guarantee to win it all, as 2007 proves. This threads title is clear, and the idea that we are flawless is absurd. This idea that we will always be able to churn out first downs is even sillier. What happens when we cannot churn out first downs? Then what?

Our offense churned out first downs last season too. When they blitz and stacked the box, thus forcing us to beat them deep, we failed. It is a flaw, a real one. It takes a certain type of defense to exploit it, but it is very real flaw. Churning out first downs is hardly a given, and having a deep threat in times of needs to back safeties the f up would be beyond clutch, and is currently absent.


Can you give me an offense in the NFL right now that has all of the weapons we do AND a deep threat?

This offense has put up crazy points over 10 weeks of play, I'm pretty sure defensive coordinators have tried blitzing, stacking the box, zones, anything and everything to try and slow this team down, and it hasn't seemed to work lately.

Sure there have been bumps in the road, but lately this offense has been on a tear.

I think the San Fran and Houston games will give us a true indicator of just how good this offense is...as of right now, I'm saying they are easily the best this season and an overall more effective offense than 2007.
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tonyto3690


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

samgurl775 wrote:
Pats#1 wrote:
I think it all comes down to what you hold more valuable...

The passing game in 07 was better than the passing game in 12

and

The running game in 12 is better than the running game in 07



Which difference do you think is greater/more important.

I honestly would take this offense over the 07 offense in the playoffs any day. The balance it has is fantastic and not being so one dimensional could have won those last 2 superbowls.
The 2007 pass offense was the greatest of all time. The 2012 rushing game isn't even the best this season. This offense is not the GOAT.


That's pretty horrible logic.

Montana didn't have the strongest arm in the
Nfl while he was playing... Therefore clearly not the GOAT? You don't have to be the best ever at everything to be the best ever.

We have both a dominant running game and dominant passing game. What makes our offense great is the consistency and ability to score in so many ways.

The 07'offense was "easily" defended once people figured it out. I don't think it's possible to do that to this years offense. You can only hope to contain it.
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:

Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way to defeat the 2007 Patriots was to sack the QB. The receivers could not be defensed, so preventing the passes from being thrown was the only way.

Offenses do not get better.
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tonyto3690


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
The only way to defeat the 2007 Patriots was to sack the QB. The receivers could not be defensed, so preventing the passes from being thrown was the only way.

Offenses do not get better.


If teams try to get after Brady we can just counter and run the ball.
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:

Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT.
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NextBigThing


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tonyto3690 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
The only way to defeat the 2007 Patriots was to sack the QB. The receivers could not be defensed, so preventing the passes from being thrown was the only way.

Offenses do not get better.


If teams try to get after Brady we can just counter and run the ball.


That does not make us indefensible. We have lost 3 games dude. We're not even close to 2007. Defense scoring a ton of point recently has inflated the score.

The 2007 Pats offense was unstoppable and other wordly dominant. At no point in 2012 had we resembled the highs we saw just about every week in 2007. Brady, Moss, Welker, Faulk, Gaffney, Stallworth - no defense on Earth can stop that combo. It cant be done. The only way to keep the score low is getting to the QB with your front line.
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NinjaZX6R


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
The only way to defeat the 2007 Patriots was to sack the QB. The receivers could not be defensed, so preventing the passes from being thrown was the only way.

Offenses do not get better.


Meh. Giants, Browns, Jets and the Chargers found a way.
Only 1 could execute the plays properly.

But I still agree. 2007> than 2012, 2011, and 2010.
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tonyto3690


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NextBigThing wrote:
tonyto3690 wrote:
NextBigThing wrote:
The only way to defeat the 2007 Patriots was to sack the QB. The receivers could not be defensed, so preventing the passes from being thrown was the only way.

Offenses do not get better.


If teams try to get after Brady we can just counter and run the ball.


That does not make us indefensible. We have lost 3 games dude. We're not even close to 2007. Defense scoring a ton of point recently has inflated the score.

The 2007 Pats offense was unstoppable and other wordly dominant. At no point in 2012 had we resembled the highs we saw just about every week in 2007. Brady, Moss, Welker, Faulk, Gaffney, Stallworth - no defense on Earth can stop that combo. It cant be done. The only way to keep the score low is getting to the QB with your front line.


Contrary to what you may think, Brady completing 7 passes to Welker/Hernandez/Gronk to get a drive to score a TD counts the same as 1 pass to Moss. Being more flashy doesn't mean it's better. Production > Flash.

In 2007 we had 8 ST/D touchdowns. Right now we have 7. It's not like we're scoring significantly more through D and STs than we did in 2007. And again, this assumes that we wouldn't have scored anything had we not gotten a turnover.


That's the point though. It doesn't matter if your receivers are great if your QB is on his back the entire game. That offense could be stopped if you stopped Brady. This offense can't be stopped because we don't necessarily need Brady to put up 350 and 4 every game to score 30 points. We've demonstrated numerous times we can score a bunch of points by just handing the ball off and throwing some passes to keep them honest.
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:

Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT.
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Tzimisce


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram/1950.htm

38.83 points per game.

In 1950.
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tonyto3690


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tzimisce wrote:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/ram/1950.htm

38.83 points per game.

In 1950.


I saw that on Patsfans.

It's 1950. The game is significantly different and the playing field is significantly more even then it was then.
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C0LTSFAN4L1F3 wrote:

Drew Brees IS the most accurate qb ever

Brees that night:
28/50, 341 yards, 0 TD, 5 INT.
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