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oldman9er
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 36596
Location: New Orleans
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 Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:14 am Post subject: |
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| y2lamanaki wrote: | | Okay - let's get back to football. If there's any further clarification needed on this, please just PM myself or SoCal so that way we can get back to arguing relentlessly in 4 separate threads about the quarterback (for the on-topic threads, anyway). |
Just quoting, not directing this to you.
This was a dead issue since 11 o'clock last night when y2 posted the above... but people keep on posting... using subtle insults in general and keeping this going. So... how bout it? Everyone done now and can get along again, maybe? 
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y2lamanaki
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 8608
Location: Lancaster, PA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| justo wrote: | | y2lamanaki wrote: | | justo wrote: | | Sorry for totally intruding in on this conversation but what are you guys arguing about? Seems like a pretty heated conversation TBH |
Alex Smith or Colin Kaepernick
That's the short story. The long story will require 8 years of forum thread digging. |
Wasn't it pretty obvious that Kaep was going to be the starter in the future? Smith was a FA when the Niners were trying to pitch Manning and wasn't Harbaugh like super in Luck's ear to coach up Kaepernick in the offense during the lockout? Just seems like the team was never really committed to Smith. Not a totally bad thing. You see across the league teams that are too tied up with the one they got now to go (risk) cashing another one. When you got two decent ones then you are in good position. When the other one takes the job over and you think he has more talent and upside then that's even better, right? Look at the Bledsoe/Brady, Favre/Rodgers stuff. Teams went with the young, hot hand with a higher upside instead of the vet that would be tied down with most of the teams in the league. |
All 3 of these are completely different scenarios in my eyes. Bledsoe was playing pretty poorly and the Patriots were floundering (5-13 under him from 2000-2001). He gets injured and is out for a good portion of the season when Brady steps up and plays very well. Alex was playing at a high level over the last year and a half and only missed one game due to injury.
Brett Favre is actually somewhat closer, in the sense that he followed up some poor seasons with a great one, leading his team to a 13-3 record and a trip to the NFC Championship game where he lost by 3 to the Giants. However, the major difference there - Favre retired after the season. Rodgers was made the starter through natural transition. Favre then just wanted to come back, but by that time, Rodgers had gone through most of the offseason as the starter, and they decided it was time to move on.
Still - I agree that Kaepernick was brought in to eventually be Smith's replacement. The major issue now is that it was done after Smith was playing at a fairly high level over the 5 quarters (and the season as a whole) before he was injured for one game after Smith self-reported a concussion. Many question if Kaepernick is ready to handle adversity when we're very clearly a team with championship potential.
Myself - I'm torn on the subject because I can very clearly see both sides, though I do say the offense seems to operate 'better' in the eye test with Kaepernick to date. Such things as the ability to extend plays and keep his eyes downfield to make passes to receivers eventually getting open and make some riskier passes are things Smith hasn't shown he can do. IMO, it all comes down to the second one - those riskier passes are going to make or break the season. Either he'll connect with some minor miracles and we'll go all the way, or he'll throw one more Alex wouldn't have, and the season will end on a mistake that could have been avoided.
Those are my thoughts, anyway.
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cHaInBrEaKeRiii
Joined: 21 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: |
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| oldman9er wrote: | | y2lamanaki wrote: | | Okay - let's get back to football. If there's any further clarification needed on this, please just PM myself or SoCal so that way we can get back to arguing relentlessly in 4 separate threads about the quarterback (for the on-topic threads, anyway). |
Just quoting, not directing this to you.
This was a dead issue since 11 o'clock last night when y2 posted the above... but people keep on posting... using subtle insults in general and keeping this going. So... how bout it? Everyone done now and can get along again, maybe? |
Who insulted who?
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oldman9er
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 36596
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| cHaInBrEaKeRiii wrote: | | oldman9er wrote: | | y2lamanaki wrote: | | Okay - let's get back to football. If there's any further clarification needed on this, please just PM myself or SoCal so that way we can get back to arguing relentlessly in 4 separate threads about the quarterback (for the on-topic threads, anyway). |
Just quoting, not directing this to you.
This was a dead issue since 11 o'clock last night when y2 posted the above... but people keep on posting... using subtle insults in general and keeping this going. So... how bout it? Everyone done now and can get along again, maybe? |
Who insulted who? |
It's time to stop calling out posters and talking about them... though the answer to your question shouldn't be hard to find on the previous page.. no matter how indirect it was... well after y2 advised everyone to get back to "talking football".
You can PM if you are still truly not getting this.
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BBIB
Joined: 20 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: |
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I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place
And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.
Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way |
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neezy007
Joined: 21 May 2008
Posts: 8209
Location: El Paso
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| BBIB wrote: | I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place
And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.
Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way |
It's not going to get a rest because people have been fighting for or against Smith for years now. It seems almost ingrained into many fans DNA. You have to have a fight about Alex Smith.
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steadypimpin
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 7237
Location: Rockville, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| neezy007 wrote: | | BBIB wrote: | I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place
And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.
Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way |
It's not going to get a rest because people have been fighting for or against Smith for years now. It seems almost ingrained into many fans DNA. You have to have a fight about Alex Smith. |
Yeah we'll fight until the season is over and he gets cut/traded.
The bolded is the truest thing ever. Smith was a huge bust in the eyes of many and Harbaugh resurrected his career.
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rudyZ
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
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Location: Québec
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| steadypimpin wrote: | | neezy007 wrote: | | BBIB wrote: | I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place
And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.
Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way |
It's not going to get a rest because people have been fighting for or against Smith for years now. It seems almost ingrained into many fans DNA. You have to have a fight about Alex Smith. |
Yeah we'll fight until the season is over and he gets cut/traded.
The bolded is the truest thing ever. Smith was a huge bust in the eyes of many and Harbaugh resurrected his career. |
What if he doesn't get cut or traded?
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Ataal
Joined: 17 Oct 2011
Posts: 1578
Location: Avondale, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| BBIB wrote: | I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place
And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.
Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way |
Well, let's use a little context here, though.
I'm not saying Alex is an elite passer. I don't think anyone would argue that point. But, let's not act like we had a ton of weapons for him to throw to last year, either. Crabtree has exploded this year, but Kyle freakin' Williams had the most touchdowns of any of our WRs until....week 16? 17, maybe? Braylon Edwards couldn't catch a cold. We lost Josh Morgan due to injury early in the season. Ted Ginn was great at returning, but left a lot to be desired at WR. As for tight ends, Vernon Davis didn't really show up until the playoffs. Delanie Walker was pretty non-existent as well. Oh, and did I mention we led the league in drops per attempt by a fairly wide margin?
So, we relied heavily upon our running game. Yardage is quite possibly the worst stat to look at without context, especially in run-first offense.
With the new weapons, Alex was improving. No, he wasn't doubling the stats, but he was making huge strides. Just look at how many less field goals we're making this year versus last.
All that said, Colin looks poised to be a great quarterback. Really looking forward to see how much he progresses. If he can get us to a Top 10-15 offense with our #1 defense, we are going to have a dynasty here. Very excited! I just don't like seeing revisionist history based on one or two irrelevant stats.
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justo
Joined: 05 Aug 2012
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Location: Hood River, Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| y2lamanaki wrote: | All 3 of these are completely different scenarios in my eyes. Bledsoe was playing pretty poorly and the Patriots were floundering (5-13 under him from 2000-2001). He gets injured and is out for a good portion of the season when Brady steps up and plays very well. Alex was playing at a high level over the last year and a half and only missed one game due to injury.
Brett Favre is actually somewhat closer, in the sense that he followed up some poor seasons with a great one, leading his team to a 13-3 record and a trip to the NFC Championship game where he lost by 3 to the Giants. However, the major difference there - Favre retired after the season. Rodgers was made the starter through natural transition. Favre then just wanted to come back, but by that time, Rodgers had gone through most of the offseason as the starter, and they decided it was time to move on.
Still - I agree that Kaepernick was brought in to eventually be Smith's replacement. The major issue now is that it was done after Smith was playing at a fairly high level over the 5 quarters (and the season as a whole) before he was injured for one game after Smith self-reported a concussion. Many question if Kaepernick is ready to handle adversity when we're very clearly a team with championship potential.
Myself - I'm torn on the subject because I can very clearly see both sides, though I do say the offense seems to operate 'better' in the eye test with Kaepernick to date. Such things as the ability to extend plays and keep his eyes downfield to make passes to receivers eventually getting open and make some riskier passes are things Smith hasn't shown he can do. IMO, it all comes down to the second one - those riskier passes are going to make or break the season. Either he'll connect with some minor miracles and we'll go all the way, or he'll throw one more Alex wouldn't have, and the season will end on a mistake that could have been avoided.
Those are my thoughts, anyway. |
Let's not forget that the Packers didn't hedge their bets on young Rodgers either. People forget that Brohm was picked in the second round after Rodgers first year as a starter. The way to get good with QBs in this league is to not be complacent. Always have another ready to go and you won't collapse. I feel like Harbaugh did well with that at Stanford (heck even U San Diego TBH) and looks like he's doing it in SF.
So you'd rather have a guy like Alex Smith (really safe) than Peyton Manning (amazing, but streaky interceptions)? Harbaugh obviously disagreed judging by his actions this offseason.
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Miami49er
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 6403
Location: Miami, FL (Wade County)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/
I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:
| Quote: | “Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.
“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin. |
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Ataal
Joined: 17 Oct 2011
Posts: 1578
Location: Avondale, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Miami49er wrote: | http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/
I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:
| Quote: | “Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.
“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin. |
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Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Miami49er
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 6403
Location: Miami, FL (Wade County)
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Ataal wrote: | | Miami49er wrote: | http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/
I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:
| Quote: | “Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.
“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin. |
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Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive. |
his point was that Alex has had numerous chances no one has gotten regardless of circumstance. Jason Campbell had a new OC every year too and didn't get the chances Alex got. It happens. It's a business. Point is he's fortunate he's lasted this long in one organization.
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steadypimpin
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 7237
Location: Rockville, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| rudyZ wrote: | | steadypimpin wrote: | | neezy007 wrote: | | BBIB wrote: | I don't understand why 49ers fans or the nation won't give Jim Harbaugh the benefit of the doubt when he's the primary reason why Alex Smith isn't a complete draft bust in the first place
And Alex Smith the year he took the team to the NFC Championship game was basically ranked 18th-20th in yards and touchdowns.
Recent history says you need a little more out of your QB to go all the way |
It's not going to get a rest because people have been fighting for or against Smith for years now. It seems almost ingrained into many fans DNA. You have to have a fight about Alex Smith. |
Yeah we'll fight until the season is over and he gets cut/traded.
The bolded is the truest thing ever. Smith was a huge bust in the eyes of many and Harbaugh resurrected his career. |
What if he doesn't get cut or traded? |
I'm kind of expecting it. Every time we think he's gone, they let him back in. This time I think he will be cut/traded though.
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steadypimpin
Joined: 01 Jan 2009
Posts: 7237
Location: Rockville, Maryland
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| Posted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Miami49er wrote: | | Ataal wrote: | | Miami49er wrote: | http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2012/11/inside-the-49ers/carlos-rogers-alex-has-had-a-lot-of-chances-that-some-other-players-would-never-get/
I love what Carlos Rogers says here and it sums up why no one should feel sorry Alex:
| Quote: | “Alex has had a lot of chances that some other players, some other coaches, some other quarterbacks would never get.
“Just being in Washington where they talked about how bad Alex was – and I don’t know, I was on the outside looking in – he’s still here. They still stuck with Alex. A lot of people never would have got them chances. They talking about how bad you are, how bad you been playing or how bad the team is – being that he was a top pick – they usually get rid of those players. They usually get rid of those quarterbacks. And this organization, this team has stuck with Alex throughout thick and thin. |
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Really? Rogers, himself, feels bad for him. Most people do, regardless of whether or not it's a business decision. Why can't it be a business decision AND feel bad for a guy that was playing well for two seasons to get benched? They don't have to be mutually exclusive. |
his point was that Alex has had numerous chances no one has gotten regardless of circumstance. Jason Campbell had a new OC every year too and didn't get the chances Alex got. It happens. It's a business. Point is he's fortunate he's lasted this long in one organization. |
That's what I've been saying all along.
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