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y2lamanaki
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 8609
Location: Lancaster, PA
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 Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| rudyZ wrote: | | When I say the defense won us that game, I'm not talking only about the 14 points they scored. Sure, take away the points and we still win. But those two drives that were terminated with defensive drives are potentially drives that could have resulted in offensive points, especially for a team like the Saints. We're talking about a potential 28 points shift, not just a 14 points shift. Maybe we could have gotten the ball back without allowing the points, and we would have won by a closer margin. But it's still the defense having an impact. Against St. Louis, the offense gave up as many points as the defense did... and here's the funny thing: OFFENSES AREN'T SUPPOSED TO GIVE UP POINTS! Offenses are supposed to score them. So the offense is doubly at fault here, first for not scoring enough, and second for giving up any. So yeah, the defense has done more than its fair share in the last three games. |
I don't disagree with this, as the defense has been playing magnificent, and DID play well enough for us to win yesterday's game. Cannot take that away from them at all, and I agree that the offense was completely at fault for the Rams loss - but where I disagreed with your first post is that the Saints game is a loss if not for the defense. I see your theory, but in that same sense, it's a lot like saying if our defense doesn't limit the teams to the amount of points they scored throughout the season then we likely lose. As I see it, the defense helped, and the offense didn't do anything in the Saints game to cripple the team like in the Rams game.
Make no mistake - I fully stand by those that say Kaepernick deserves his fair share of the blame yesterday. The safety (though it shouldn't have been ruled one) was a direct result of him trying to do way too much, and bad playcall or not, the terrible pitch was a terrible pitch and in that game situation you have to know to hold onto the ball (it was a read option after all, not just a toss play). But just as I'm prepared to hand him some blame for yesterday, I'm not going to take away that he did do really well in the Saints game.
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LANiner
Joined: 15 Feb 2009
Posts: 382
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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vaunted bears defense lol don't make me laugh the same d that list to vaunted. Seattle offense and kap beating the saints their d is better than years prior but still isn't any wee near good kaps performane=turd
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big9erfan
Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 10668
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| CaptainKaep7 wrote: | We would have won if Harbaugh could have actually challenged a scoring drive but he couldn't so the safety counted.
Hi Guys.
Go 49ers.
Go Sexy Kaep.
Go Beautiful Alexis.
We'll still win guys.
Superbowl?
Who knows, Harbaugh sees things we don't. Kaep made mistakes, Alex has made mistakes too. We've seen it. It is just one game, do we need to panic? Somewhat, just for the fact we're only 1.5 games in first in our division. But I believe Kaep gives us the same chance of winning during the regular season as Alex does. But Alex has two playoff games, one where he looked amazing, and one where he and the team looked awful. I say ride it out with Kaep, stay committed. We've witness Alex for what, 8 seasons now? His time will come up because a "conservative" QB may not be able to win us it all in this league now.
Bye guys. |
You're right about the challenge. That's one the NFL rules makers should change. It is not a matter of opinion whether a ball crossed a certain line or not, any more than whether two feet are inbound on a catch, or a guy was down before crossing the goal line and tons of other examples like that. No need to rely on judgement when we've got instant replay. As always if it's not clear then go with the original call on the field.
We're committed to Kap - and we should be. Too late to turn back now unless he gets hurt. I hope though that he gives us a better chance to win than Alex does. My whole feeling about it is that he gives us both a better chance to beat teams with a good defense or good pass rush, like the Giants, than Alex does. But he also has more potential to cost us a game like yesterday's loss. The hope is that he minimizes his errors with experience and thus taken as a whole we have a better chance to win against a tough opponent.
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J-ALL-DAY
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 15499
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| LANiner wrote: | | vaunted bears defense lol don't make me laugh the same d that list to vaunted. Seattle offense and kap beating the saints their d is better than years prior but still isn't any wee near good kaps performane=turd |
Bears don't have one of the best defenses in the league? Are you kidding me? They were playing great ball before Kaepernick carved them up. Wilson did the same so maybe they have problems with mobile QBs who can keep plays alive? Just because they had two sub-par games doesn't make them a bad defense. Are the Niners a vaunted defense even thought the Giants and Vikings did whatever they wanted to do against us?
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CaptainKaep7
Joined: 11 Nov 2012
Posts: 11
Location: FootballsFuture, Ca
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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I just want it to be known that ClarkFn shouldn't be tested on history of sports. That is all.
And guys, do not panic.
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clarkfn2284
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Posts: 2591
Location: Modesto,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| big9erfan wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | and to actually answer your rookie QB playoff wins question......
Shaun King TB 1999
Ben Roethlisberger Pit 2004
Joe Flaaco Bal 2008 with a rookie head coach
Mark Sanchez NYJ 2009
and just last year
TJ Yates HOU 2011
so............ you were saying? |
Excellent knowledge! Don't know how you were able to find that so fast. Three of those five guys - Roethlisberger, Flacco and Sanchez all played pretty close to a full season. Only Yates and King played part of a season. So that would make two. So ... what I was saying, or at least implying, was that it would not be an example of bias to suggest that odds of winning a playoff game would not be good for a QB with less than a half season's worth of experience. Of course he could, and you provided examples. But why attack Rudy for his making a perfectly ordinary and reasonable statement about playoff wins for inexperienced QBs not being very likely. |
i wasnt attacking Rudy first of all, just disagreeing with him.....
secondly the bias wasnt from his statement it was about the fact that he was speaking in absolutes. The statement about odds is completely a blanket statement that there is no real way of proving or knowing what would happen if Kaep plays in a playoff game.
The same could have been said about Alex last year concerning his playoff experience.
And nobody has answered the question about when a player is considered to be experienced? Experience is like credit you cant get it without having it. In order to have expierience he has to get some, right now he is getting it. People dont have to agree witht the timing, but many have written off his "chances" due to the lack of "experience" and thats really ignorant.
We see guys come into the league and take off every year.
I guess Luck shouldnt be doing what he is doing and Doug Martin is not capable of havin.....wait what?
Every year guys show they are ready to be big time contibutors in this league. Why cant it be Kaep? Because of his "sperience"(Terry Bradshaw voice), its absurd.
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clarkfn2284
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
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Location: Modesto,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| big9erfan wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | and to actually answer your rookie QB playoff wins question......
Shaun King TB 1999
Ben Roethlisberger Pit 2004
Joe Flaaco Bal 2008 with a rookie head coach
Mark Sanchez NYJ 2009
and just last year
TJ Yates HOU 2011
so............ you were saying? |
Excellent knowledge! Don't know how you were able to find that so fast. Three of those five guys - Roethlisberger, Flacco and Sanchez all played pretty close to a full season. Only Yates and King played part of a season. So that would make two. So ... what I was saying, or at least implying, was that it would not be an example of bias to suggest that odds of winning a playoff game would not be good for a QB with less than a half season's worth of experience. Of course he could, and you provided examples. But why attack Rudy for his making a perfectly ordinary and reasonable statement about playoff wins for inexperienced QBs not being very likely. |
The other thing i need to say is that all this talk about experience has gotten Flacco what? How about Sanchez? serving him well right now huh?
What do Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, Warren Moon. Rich Gannon, Dan Fouts, Donovan Mcnabb, Jim Kelly, Matt Hasselback have in common?
Tons of experience and ZERO Super Bowls so i think experienced is being a little overstated in this conversation.
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rudyZ
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 11346
Location: Québec
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| clarkfn2284 wrote: | i wasnt attacking Rudy first of all, just disagreeing with him.....
secondly the bias wasnt from his statement it was about the fact that he was speaking in absolutes. The statement about odds is completely a blanket statement that there is no real way of proving or knowing what would happen if Kaep plays in a playoff game.
The same could have been said about Alex last year concerning his playoff experience.
And nobody has answered the question about when a player is considered to be experienced? Experience is like credit you cant get it without having it. In order to have expierience he has to get some, right now he is getting it. People dont have to agree witht the timing, but many have written off his "chances" due to the lack of "experience" and thats really ignorant.
We see guys come into the league and take off every year.
I guess Luck shouldnt be doing what he is doing and Doug Martin is not capable of havin.....wait what?
Every year guys show they are ready to be big time contibutors in this league. Why cant it be Kaep? Because of his "sperience"(Terry Bradshaw voice), its absurd. |
How is mentioning ODDS an absolute statement? I'm not saying Kaepernick will fail. I do not wish that. I'm simply stating that the ODDS aren't in his favor. Do you undersand what I'm saying?
And I agree that Kap cannot get experience without playing. And it's better to go into the playoffs with 8 games of experience under his belt than none. But my point was that this year may not have been the right time for an experiment, and I would have felt much better about it, about his ODDS of performing in the playoffs, if he had had 16 games of experience under his belt. That's why I would have preferred to finish the year with Alex, a QB who can take us to the Superbowl (he almost did it with Brett freakin' Swain starting), and if he failed, start Kaepernick Week 1 of 2013, where he'd get plenty of experience to head into the playoffs. Going with him midway through the season is a HUGE gamble. But we can look at the bright side. If the gamble doesn't pay off this year, it might pay off huge next year. In fact, I have the utmost confidence in Kaepernick giving us our best shot at a superbowl... in 2013. But this year? Alex was our best shot.
Maybe someone in the organization was afraid of winning this year with Alex. We would have been forced to go on with him next year. So, better sacrifice our chances at winning this year in the hope of building a dynasty. I could get on board with that.
So, my overall point is that Kap's odds aren't better than Alex's. Just because you have an arm and guts doesn't make you a great QB. Rex Grossman should be amazing, if that were the case. What makes you great is understanding what defenses are trying to do to you and use it against them. Kaepernick, for now, is more instinctive than analytic. When he gets better at the mental side of the game, he will be unstoppable. Are 8 games enough to get there? The ODDS are not in his favor. But take 8 regular season games this year, one or two playoff games, 16 more regular season games next year... I have no reason to doubt we'll be favorites to win the Superbowl. But right now, we're not favorites. Were we with Alex? In most people's eyes, no. But we almost did it with a much worse lineup last year, so why couldn't we do it now?
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rudyZ
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 11346
Location: Québec
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| clarkfn2284 wrote: | | big9erfan wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | and to actually answer your rookie QB playoff wins question......
Shaun King TB 1999
Ben Roethlisberger Pit 2004
Joe Flaaco Bal 2008 with a rookie head coach
Mark Sanchez NYJ 2009
and just last year
TJ Yates HOU 2011
so............ you were saying? |
Excellent knowledge! Don't know how you were able to find that so fast. Three of those five guys - Roethlisberger, Flacco and Sanchez all played pretty close to a full season. Only Yates and King played part of a season. So that would make two. So ... what I was saying, or at least implying, was that it would not be an example of bias to suggest that odds of winning a playoff game would not be good for a QB with less than a half season's worth of experience. Of course he could, and you provided examples. But why attack Rudy for his making a perfectly ordinary and reasonable statement about playoff wins for inexperienced QBs not being very likely. |
The other thing i need to say is that all this talk about experience has gotten Flacco what? How about Sanchez? serving him well right now huh?
What do Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, Warren Moon. Rich Gannon, Dan Fouts, Donovan Mcnabb, Jim Kelly, Matt Hasselback have in common?
Tons of experience and ZERO Super Bowls so i think experienced is being a little overstated in this conversation. |
The point was that you rarely win without it. I can't buy a house without money. It doesn't mean that if I have money, I automatically have a house to my name.
House = Superbowl
Money = Experience
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SoCalNiner
Joined: 13 Nov 2007
Posts: 18580
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| rudyZ wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | | big9erfan wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | and to actually answer your rookie QB playoff wins question......
Shaun King TB 1999
Ben Roethlisberger Pit 2004
Joe Flaaco Bal 2008 with a rookie head coach
Mark Sanchez NYJ 2009
and just last year
TJ Yates HOU 2011
so............ you were saying? |
Excellent knowledge! Don't know how you were able to find that so fast. Three of those five guys - Roethlisberger, Flacco and Sanchez all played pretty close to a full season. Only Yates and King played part of a season. So that would make two. So ... what I was saying, or at least implying, was that it would not be an example of bias to suggest that odds of winning a playoff game would not be good for a QB with less than a half season's worth of experience. Of course he could, and you provided examples. But why attack Rudy for his making a perfectly ordinary and reasonable statement about playoff wins for inexperienced QBs not being very likely. |
The other thing i need to say is that all this talk about experience has gotten Flacco what? How about Sanchez? serving him well right now huh?
What do Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, Warren Moon. Rich Gannon, Dan Fouts, Donovan Mcnabb, Jim Kelly, Matt Hasselback have in common?
Tons of experience and ZERO Super Bowls so i think experienced is being a little overstated in this conversation. |
The point was that you rarely win without it. I can't buy a house without money. It doesn't mean that if I have money, I automatically have a house to my name.
House = Superbowl
Money = Experience |
So I should invest in restate, then we win a super bowl?
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y2lamanaki
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 8609
Location: Lancaster, PA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: |
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| LANiner wrote: | | vaunted bears defense lol don't make me laugh the same d that list to vaunted. |
Chicago's Defensive team ranks:
Total defense: 5th
Points & Points/Game: 2nd
Pass Defense: 7th
Rush Defense: 10th
First downs allowed: 7th
Defensive 3rd down %: 6th
Sacks: 8th
INTs: 1st
Fumbles Forced: 2nd
Fumbles Recovered: 2nd
Defensive TDs: 1st
So, yeah, we understand you'd rather Kaepernick do poorly than the 49ers to do well, but seriously - the Bears are a top 10 defense in every single important defensive category. The 49ers were the only team to score 30 points against them. Kaepernick was the first quarterback to not throw an INT against them (Wilson became the 2nd). Try and downplay it all you want, but to do so is pretty foolish.
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clarkfn2284
Joined: 07 Jan 2007
Posts: 2591
Location: Modesto,CA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| rudyZ wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | | big9erfan wrote: | | clarkfn2284 wrote: | and to actually answer your rookie QB playoff wins question......
Shaun King TB 1999
Ben Roethlisberger Pit 2004
Joe Flaaco Bal 2008 with a rookie head coach
Mark Sanchez NYJ 2009
and just last year
TJ Yates HOU 2011
so............ you were saying? |
Excellent knowledge! Don't know how you were able to find that so fast. Three of those five guys - Roethlisberger, Flacco and Sanchez all played pretty close to a full season. Only Yates and King played part of a season. So that would make two. So ... what I was saying, or at least implying, was that it would not be an example of bias to suggest that odds of winning a playoff game would not be good for a QB with less than a half season's worth of experience. Of course he could, and you provided examples. But why attack Rudy for his making a perfectly ordinary and reasonable statement about playoff wins for inexperienced QBs not being very likely. |
The other thing i need to say is that all this talk about experience has gotten Flacco what? How about Sanchez? serving him well right now huh?
What do Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, Warren Moon. Rich Gannon, Dan Fouts, Donovan Mcnabb, Jim Kelly, Matt Hasselback have in common?
Tons of experience and ZERO Super Bowls so i think experienced is being a little overstated in this conversation. |
The point was that you rarely win without it. I can't buy a house without money. It doesn't mean that if I have money, I automatically have a house to my name.
House = Superbowl
Money = Experience |
So based on your comments, experience while it doesnt hurt to have it doesnt truly play a role in the odds of a person being successful right? Experience importance for lack of a better term is a mind set, i just dont buy into it or the idea of odds on something so broad
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rudyZ
Joined: 12 Mar 2007
Posts: 11346
Location: Québec
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:39 pm Post subject: |
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| clarkfn2284 wrote: | | So based on your comments, experience while it doesnt hurt to have it doesnt truly play a role in the odds of a person being successful right? Experience importance for lack of a better term is a mind set, i just dont buy into it or the idea of odds on something so broad |
Experience does play a role in a person's success. Maybe not in regard to his ceiling, but in the time it will take him to reach that ceiling. Kap should be crazy good. But will 8 games be enough for him to reach that level on a consistent basis?
And if you disagree about my perception of the odds, why don't you argue on what does make Kap's odds to succeed better than Alex's? Why insist that odds have no merit? It's my opinion. You didn't argue the content of my opinion, but the vessel I chose to express it. As far as I'm concerned, I feel I'm entitled to discuss the odds of something happening or not, based on the parameters I choose.
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J-ALL-DAY
Joined: 17 Oct 2007
Posts: 15499
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:35 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Braylon Edwards @OfficialBraylon
Glad kap is balling in San Fran. Cool [inappropriate/removed] dude and a lot different from your average starting QB |
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UofMfan909
Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Posts: 22549
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:59 am Post subject: |
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| y2lamanaki wrote: | | LANiner wrote: | | vaunted bears defense lol don't make me laugh the same d that list to vaunted. |
Chicago's Defensive team ranks:
Total defense: 5th
Points & Points/Game: 2nd
Pass Defense: 7th
Rush Defense: 10th
First downs allowed: 7th
Defensive 3rd down %: 6th
Sacks: 8th
INTs: 1st
Fumbles Forced: 2nd
Fumbles Recovered: 2nd
Defensive TDs: 1st
So, yeah, we understand you'd rather Kaepernick do poorly than the 49ers to do well, but seriously - the Bears are a top 10 defense in every single important defensive category. The 49ers were the only team to score 30 points against them. Kaepernick was the first quarterback to not throw an INT against them (Wilson became the 2nd). Try and downplay it all you want, but to do so is pretty foolish. |
And what was the one stat, like an average 60 something QB rating against them, with Rodgers as the season high of 85ish? Then Kaep went in and put up 130+ in his first career start... yeah, it was a really good defense. People were calling it the best in the league.
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