Discuss football with over 60,000 fans. Free Membership. Join now!

 FAQFAQ  RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

FootballsFuture.com Forum Index
FootballsFuture.com Home

Matt Barkley: Yes or No? and Why?
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bigschmadt00


Moderator
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 10908
Location: 500 miles East of Sack City!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On Landry Jones, consider this - http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/OverRated-Prospect-Landry-Jones.html

As far as the idea of committing multiple picks to QB, I think it's a novel idea that's time has come. At least if we get a real life big boy NFL coaching staff and FO.

I do truly believe that we've got a SB caliber team if we have both a QB that can win beat a defense with some regularity, and a HC that can properly manage this team and get them motivated.

We are the 2010 49ers, we just lack a Jim Harbaugh and Alex Smith. Well, I'd want a little better then Smith, but I think you get my point.

To ensure we've not only got a legit QB, but also a back-up that could be something, I'd have no problem taking say Geno in the 1st, and then a 3rd (comp) or 4th rounder like Dysert (depends on off-season grades) or Ryan Nassib.

Is it overkill, well, it absolutely should be, but ultimately we need a back-up too potentially, and we absolutely must find a franchise QB this off-season.
_________________

^ryknowssd on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6606
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigs, I just don't like the idea of essentially sacrificing opportunities to add to our depth and in some cases hopefully a starting caliber player for an opportunity to select multiple quarterbacks. Hopefully we can atleast consider that we might have at a minimum a competent backup caliber quarterback already on the roster in Stanzi. If that isn't the case we have wasted a roster spot on him and won't ever know it.

You are right about the 49ers and Harbaugh. When he came on board he obviously felt comfortable enough to atleast consider Alex Smith for at a minimum as a short term solution and if he took the next step under Harbaugh maybe even a legitimate long term solution. But Harbaugh was smart, he didn't go all in with Smith and drafted a prospect he felt could also be developed long term as an eventual replacement for Smith, either short term (they did compete in camp) or long term.

I am all for the idea of either having a veteran quarterback start while a young quarterback develops or a young quarterback start with a veteran quarterback backing him up and providing experience. I am not big on the idea of adding two rookie quarterbacks and hoping both stick in different capacities.

The other main reason is that we have alot of free agent questions to be answered this offseason and that is largely due to Pioli's doing. While I would like to see us get involved in the free agent market to an extent (I don't expect any flashy signings or big names), I also think it is important to look at the draft at adding developmental players to serve as key depth (also special teams) and hopefully some will develop into candidates for starting roles.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6606
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It all depends on the front office and coaching staff, but I wouldn't have an issue if we hired Peter Carmichael for example as head coach (again, just an example) and we sign Chase Daniel as a veteran quarterback and still draft a quarterback at some point in the first three rounds. Hell, I wouldn't even be pissed if we drafted Barkley in round 2 or after a trade down in round 1 (all the way to the bottom!) if our head coach and coaching staff was competent to understand what our quarterbacks can and cannot do and are smart enough to formulate an offensive attack that emphasizes their strengths.

Another scenario is hiring Dave Toub (another example) and as I mentioned before, sign Jason Campbell to maybe a two year contract to serve as a veteran presence and draft a rookie in round 1.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DT58_lives_on


Joined: 04 Jan 2007
Posts: 5791
Location: St. Cloud, MN
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nic, to clarify, what I was meaning was that we need to get more than one QB in here. I'd just like to have a good option to back-up, similar to what the Redskins did this year.
_________________
[image]http://i1240.photobucket.com/albums/gg481/jesse_fritsch1/DEEFORD2_zpsef1ad50c.jpg[image]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6606
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DT58_lives_on wrote:
Nic, to clarify, what I was meaning was that we need to get more than one QB in here. I'd just like to have a good option to back-up, similar to what the Redskins did this year.


Oh, I agree on cleaning the cupboard at the position with the exception of Ricky Stanzi unless we find out he couldn't hold Tyler Palko's jockstrap.

I just don't want to add two young players that will both have to face adjustment to the NFL at the same time and both are essentially unknowns. I happen to think we very well could already have our Kirk Cousins on the roster right now.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ryknowssd


Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 22821
Location: Awesomeville
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's my thing with Barkley; He has the tools. He doesn't have the head.

On a scale from 1-10 (10 being the best), here's how I'd rate him:

Internal Clock/Pocket Awareness: 3
Arm Strength: 8
Short Accuracy: 7.5
Medium Accuracy: 8.5
Deep Accuracy: 6
Footwork: N/A (too inconsistent to grade)
Throwing Mechanics: 8.5
Decisiveness: 9.5
Play Action: 8
Field Vision/Progressions: 4

Now, keep in mind that this is only based off 3 games. But, based on what I've seen from him last year, combined with this year...it seems as though he's regressed. If you watch his game tape, you can tell he's far too focused on getting the ball out quickly and on time. He's hurrying his delivery, his drops and as a result, he's forcing passes more often than he was last year, too. Because he's so focused on getting the ball out quickly, he gets happy feet and panics any time his first read isn't open. In those situations, I've noticed he automatically goes to his check down option and before he can even turn his head to his check down option, his arm is already in motion. It's as if he's already committed to throwing the ball to his check down before he even checks to see if he's OPEN. Is this a coachable deficiency? Sure. But he most definitely would not benefit from a situation where he needs to start immediately and that's what he'd be asked to do here in KC. If he's drafted to a team where he can sit for the first 8-16 games and learn how to calm down and go through his progressions with consistent mechanics/footwork, then I see him being a very, very good QB in this league. I don't see him being successful right away, though. His medium accuracy is excellent, though. That's the most impressive part of his skill set IMO.

The good thing is that if you compare Barkley, Geno and Wilson, Barkley will have the smallest adjustment in terms of personnel out of all the three QBs. Geno mainly has small, speedy targets, Wilson really only has one viable target to throw to this year (a big bodied Cobi Hamilton) and Barkley mainly only has big bodied WRs, just like Baldwin & Bowe. Because he's used to WRs with Bowe & Baldwin's skill sets, he shouldn't have to overcome the all-too-common issue of being gun shy if his first read is in a jump ball situation. Most young QBs struggle with even pulling the trigger in those situations. Hell, even Matt Stafford said his biggest adjustment was chucking the ball up for grabs to Megatron, even when it looks like he's covered.

Barkley is an interesting prospect, but only if he goes to the right situation. If he's asked to start immediately, I'll be skeptical as to whether he'll even be in the league 3 or 4 years later.
_________________

bigschmadt00 wrote:
Oooohhhh YEAHH!!! WOO PIG SOOIE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nicfre2011


Joined: 15 Mar 2011
Posts: 6606
Location: SC
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ryknowssd wrote:
Okay, here's my thing with Barkley; He has the tools. He doesn't have the head.

On a scale from 1-10 (10 being the best), here's how I'd rate him:

Internal Clock/Pocket Awareness: 3
Arm Strength: 8
Short Accuracy: 7.5
Medium Accuracy: 8.5
Deep Accuracy: 6
Footwork: N/A (too inconsistent to grade)
Throwing Mechanics: 8.5
Decisiveness: 9.5
Play Action: 8
Field Vision/Progressions: 4

Now, keep in mind that this is only based off 3 games. But, based on what I've seen from him last year, combined with this year...it seems as though he's regressed. If you watch his game tape, you can tell he's far too focused on getting the ball out quickly and on time. He's hurrying his delivery, his drops and as a result, he's forcing passes more often than he was last year, too. Because he's so focused on getting the ball out quickly, he gets happy feet and panics any time his first read isn't open. In those situations, I've noticed he automatically goes to his check down option and before he can even turn his head to his check down option, his arm is already in motion. It's as if he's already committed to throwing the ball to his check down before he even checks to see if he's OPEN. Is this a coachable deficiency? Sure. But he most definitely would not benefit from a situation where he needs to start immediately and that's what he'd be asked to do here in KC. If he's drafted to a team where he can sit for the first 8-16 games and learn how to calm down and go through his progressions with consistent mechanics/footwork, then I see him being a very, very good QB in this league. I don't see him being successful right away, though. His medium accuracy is excellent, though. That's the most impressive part of his skill set IMO.

The good thing is that if you compare Barkley, Geno and Wilson, Barkley will have the smallest adjustment in terms of personnel out of all the three QBs. Geno mainly has small, speedy targets, Wilson really only has one viable target to throw to this year (a big bodied Cobi Hamilton) and Barkley mainly only has big bodied WRs, just like Baldwin & Bowe. Because he's used to WRs with Bowe & Baldwin's skill sets, he shouldn't have to overcome the all-too-common issue of being gun shy if his first read is in a jump ball situation. Most young QBs struggle with even pulling the trigger in those situations. Hell, even Matt Stafford said his biggest adjustment was chucking the ball up for grabs to Megatron, even when it looks like he's covered.

Barkley is an interesting prospect, but only if he goes to the right situation. If he's asked to start immediately, I'll be skeptical as to whether he'll even be in the league 3 or 4 years later.


I would agree with most of what you said. I do think he is average physically, meaning he has an average arm. I wouldn't grade his arm strength as anything more than league average - he tends to float alot of passes and I never really see much zip on the passes. IMO he is the opposite of someone like Dysert (as bigs described his boy) or Nassib, two prospects that sometimes put too much heat on passes where it isn't necessary.

I will say, he does throw fairly accurate when moving outside of the pocket on short to medium range passes that again, don't require alot of heat to get into a small window.

Just wondering if you could give clarification on some of the categories and how they contrast with each other like pocket awareness, decisiveness and field vision/progessions. My biggest knock on Barkley is his less than stellar physical skill set (lack of ideal height along with lack of arm strength) and he does rush things and tend to break down when he feels pressure and he doesn't have the mobility or arm strength to make consistent throws under duress.

The big thing that you kind of mentioned that is a factor to me is what a quarterback prospect does relative to the talent not only around them on offense, but also defense. In the cases of Tyler Wilson, Mike Glennon, and Ryan Nassib - they have made an impact without much talent around them. They tend to press and try and carry the team on their shoulders at times which creates the impression they aren't as solid of a prospect as first expected. IMO the numbers really don't tell the tale for those players at all and the key is seeing how they never give up and continue to rally the troops.

Overall good analysis.
_________________


Thanks to ryknowssd for the sig!

Trent Baalke for 2013 NFL executive of the year.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ryknowssd


Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 22821
Location: Awesomeville
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nicfre2011 wrote:
I would agree with most of what you said. I do think he is average physically, meaning he has an average arm. I wouldn't grade his arm strength as anything more than league average - he tends to float alot of passes and I never really see much zip on the passes.


There's a difference between arm strength and velocity on throws and ultimately, it all comes down to throwing mechanics and footwork. The reason he floats some passes isn't because he has a weak or average arm. It's because he doesn't set his feet before he makes half his throws. In most cases, his arm strength is enough to compensate for this and it doesn't impact the velocity on his throw enough to be a detriment to the play. But obviously, that's not always the case. The deep throws and throws where there is finesse required are where his lack of consistent footwork is on display. Those throws sail more often than not.

nicfre2011 wrote:
IMO he is the opposite of someone like Dysert (as bigs described his boy) or Nassib, two prospects that sometimes put too much heat on passes where it isn't necessary.


Yup. That was Mallett's biggest issue pre-draft.

nicfre2011 wrote:
I will say, he does throw fairly accurate when moving outside of the pocket on short to medium range passes that again, don't require alot of heat to get into a small window.


Agreed. I'd rate the velocity on his throws (when he sets his feet or has momentum) as above average for the NFL, but certainly not elite. He does have pretty good accuracy on the move, but I'll be honest; I don't even bother grading that because in the NFL, he's not gonna be asked to throw on the move a lot. He's a 3-5 step QB who would be at his best in a west coast offense that emphasizes timing. He needs structure and consistency because his improv skills are suspect.

nicfre2011 wrote:
Just wondering if you could give clarification on some of the categories and how they contrast with each other like pocket awareness, decisiveness and field vision/progessions. My biggest knock on Barkley is his less than stellar physical skill set (lack of ideal height along with lack of arm strength) and he does rush things and tend to break down when he feels pressure and he doesn't have the mobility or arm strength to make consistent throws under duress.


No problem.

Internal Clock/Pocket Awareness: Ability to sense pressure, adjust and either get rid of the ball or deliver a pass accurately.
Arm Strength: how far can he throw a ball (not velocity on throws).
Short Accuracy: accuracy on throws less than 8ish yards from scrimmage.
Medium Accuracy: accuracy on throws from 8-15 yards from scrimmage.
Deep Accuracy: accuracy on throws deeper than 15 yards from scrimmage.
Footwork: how consistent and fundamentally sound his backpedal, handoffs, weight distribution and correctly set his feet are on passing attempts
Throwing Mechanics: how prototypical is his throwing motion, release point and how consistent is his throwing motion?
Decisiveness: ability to make quick decisions and trust what he sees, then pull the trigger.
Play Action: ability to effectively execute a convincing play action fake.
Field Vision/Progressions: Ability to consistently go through progressions on every play to find an open receiver and anticipate a receiver getting open while dissecting the defense's play call.

...and after typing out descriptions, I realized I didn't post a grade for velocity. Depending on whether he sets his feet or not (again, his footwork is horrid), I'd rank him anywhere from a 4 to an 8.


nicfre2011 wrote:
The big thing that you kind of mentioned that is a factor to me is what a quarterback prospect does relative to the talent not only around them on offense, but also defense. In the cases of Tyler Wilson, Mike Glennon, and Ryan Nassib - they have made an impact without much talent around them. They tend to press and try and carry the team on their shoulders at times which creates the impression they aren't as solid of a prospect as first expected. IMO the numbers really don't tell the tale for those players at all and the key is seeing how they never give up and continue to rally the troops.


I agree 100% on everything you just said. I can't really speak to Glennon or Nassib because I haven't watched either of them closely, but the general concept of what you described is spot on IMO.

nicfre2011 wrote:
Overall good analysis.


Thanks, man.
_________________

bigschmadt00 wrote:
Oooohhhh YEAHH!!! WOO PIG SOOIE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eric Berry


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 381
Location: Lexington, KY
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote






_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rearviewmirror


Moderator
Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 18689
Location: ^^Tamba waiting on his next feast in the Avy Ryk on the sig
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eric Berry wrote:






so you like Marquise Lee? Me too!
_________________

les paul wrote:
There's only one thing that determines a teams performance on any given sunday
Their opponent-
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Eric Berry


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 381
Location: Lexington, KY
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can we complain about Cassel and then try to justify taking a late roung qb? lol.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eric Berry


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 381
Location: Lexington, KY
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rearviewmirror wrote:
Eric Berry wrote:






so you like Marquise Lee? Me too!


I'm sorry that's all you see here. If you think a great receiver is all it takes in that passing play then there is no hope
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ryknowssd


Joined: 13 Jan 2007
Posts: 22821
Location: Awesomeville
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Both of those throws were in the air for 60 yards. Yeah, his arm strength definitely isn't in question.
_________________

bigschmadt00 wrote:
Oooohhhh YEAHH!!! WOO PIG SOOIE!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bigschmadt00


Moderator
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Posts: 10908
Location: 500 miles East of Sack City!
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c16ankVNds

Kellen Moore throws this 57yds. Is he worthy of a 1st round pick?
_________________

^ryknowssd on the sig
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Eric Berry


Joined: 23 Jan 2011
Posts: 381
Location: Lexington, KY
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bigschmadt00 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c16ankVNds

Kellen Moore throws this 57yds. Is he worthy of a 1st round pick?


Yea! That's why he was graded as a First rounder last year to begin with, because all you need is arm strength to be successful in the NFL. /sarcasm

Barkley has a lot more than arm strength, a lot more than this Glennon character, and certainly a lot more than Dysert. I can't believe we are even discussing those clowns.


_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   

Post new topic   Reply to topic    FootballsFuture.com Forum Index -> Kansas City Chiefs All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 3 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group