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Big Ben's toughness his own worst enemy???
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Dunderhead


Joined: 13 Nov 2009
Posts: 2552
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
Oh, it's the your stupid I'm smart defense... OK... So you can imply what it means... For the lay man like me does that mean you just change it to suite your purpose?
Can we cut back the condescending tone? My point was that despite you putting the thesis there, the way you posited your attack on the thesis suggests a clear misunderstanding of the point that was being conveyed.

Because its wrong. Heck, reread the original post as OP would like us to do - you're clearly disagreeing with it! Why? Because you need to infer what isn't there.

Quote:
No, I really really really watched him play! See, I conveniently added another really! Anybody buying this? Thought not... Show me don't tell me. It reeks of arrogance and a bit belittling.
Pretty much everyone gets it but you. If you watch him play, it's clear that his play style is significantly different than others.

Arrogance and belittling? Pot, meet kettle.

You're the one claiming I'm not watching him play. If only really watched... No kettle needed, its as arrogant as one can get when not putting any proof down. That it's humorous is on you, not me and pointing it out isn't the same as doing it...

Quote:
Huh? This is made up. One, he does it more than that and 2 he's 240lbs. It's part of his game. 3 he knows how to take a shot and position his body, the man is highly skilled - more than you give him credit for


1. At least. What?

2. We know it's a part of his game. The point is that his game is condusive to injuries, as have already been shown to keep popping up throughout his career, and the OP believes those injuries will lead to the end of Ben's career.

Simply no... It hasn't been shown to pop up more than any other QB. Just because someone says something (which isn't true) doesn't mean anything was shown... Heck, I've been asking for this proof. I've posted numbers, those numbers don't show it. As far as an injury ending the man's career, he's been in the league 9 years - we're getting to the borrowed time portion. This is exactly why I brought up RBs. It's become a truism that after 30 they're done. But the number can be plus or minus 2-3 years. Sure QBs might have a couple extra, but it's no more than that. Ben is 30, is he in decent enough shape to get 2 more years? Sure. Hence, it would be the same as me saying right now AP better change his running style and be less physical. I'm doing nothing but playing averages.

3. Are we really sure about that? The volume of injuries that he has sustained suggests that's not exactly the case.

What is this supposed to mean? Are we to list how many times he shows on an injury report? This would be crazy and many times just end in an argument over how injured was Big Ben. The only measure I can go by are starts out of probably due to injuries happening on the field.

Quote:
Let's look at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZrmMKH5m8U

Best view starts at 15 seconds in, he gets tackled at 19 seconds... 4 seconds... Wow what a crazy amount of time! Please, maybe it's best you don't try to prove points with any evidence...
Nice spin. It was 4 seconds from when most every QB is conceding the sack or getting the ball out. 4 extra seconds from that point. The average pass comes out 3-5 seconds after the ball is snapped. The fact that he held onto the ball 4 seconds past the time that a normal QB would give up is a big deal. That's a lot of time with pass rushers coming after you.

No, at that (15 sec) mark the ball is being snapped... Play ends on 19 (secs in) when he's wrapped up. 4 seconds. This isn't an 8 second play, you're making stuff up. Even OP says this play isn't really indicative of Big Ben's reckless style. Problem is, you've put so much on the line in this thread claiming your reading comprehension is better and that you REALLY watch Ben (and I don't) that you are now arguing with a clock on a video and going against the OP and his point (which was wishy washy at best).

Quote:
Than you can think of... Well that's not a lot to go by... Rodgers holds the ball a ton too. Favre did and he had the record for longevity... They were/are always looking to make a play.
Favre also conceding to the pass rush quite willingly when he should have.

Quote:
So you know this but don't have any proof... Truth is Big Ben hasn't missed that much time. The dude weighs 240lbs, that's a fullback. He breaks tackles all the time. His success shows it works.
What type of proof would you like? The fact that smaller QBs like Eli Manning have missed virtually no games in the same amount of time? The fact that his injury rate is higher than every other QB?

And again, his success is not relevant to the point at all. His success is not going to stop him from being injured.

Yeah, give me comparable stats... That'd be useful and the more the better, not just 1-2 guys. But in 9 years he's missed 7 games due to injuries sustained on the field. That's less than one a season. True his success wont stop him from getting injured, but if he changes his game and isn't successful (for fear's sake) what's the point? NFL player's careers are short, he's already HAD a good career. You can't guarantee extra time, as this injury proves! HE can't get younger so his time will end anyway. It's not infinite as you'd all like to believe.

Quote:
But he hasn't been that injury prone or lost that many games. Those pocket passer with the quick release have missed more time. But those guys have had other injuries that have caused them to not perform as well. This isn't as easy as you think to determine. Their playing styles and what they do are different.
He hasn't? Which QB in the NFL has had more injuries than him? Ben is bigger than these other players, he shouldn't be getting injured more. So who is it?

Brady - 15 games
Manning - 16 games
Jason Campbell -13 games
Rex Grossman - Well over 16 games due to injury
Michael Vick - 24 games
Matt Stafford - 16 - 4 years
Sam Bradford 6 games - 3years
Alex Smith - 25 games
Big Ben Rothlisberger - 7 games

Which one of these doesn't belong! Which one of these doesn't belong! Come on everyone, sing with me..!



Quote:
They all get injured! It's a violent game. Success is all that matters. I do not understand this point at all. Straw! Thou hast been grasped!
I thought you said that you did understand the point...

If the point is QB's just get injured, that's not a point. It's directed at a particular player for the way he plays... There is no proof said player is anymore injury prone or holding his team back or that we can predict future outcomes - that's my point.

Quote:
What? They are nothing alike! Have you looked at them? They aren't even close to comparable players.

Big Ben - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RoetBe00.htm

Mike Vick - http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/V/VickMi00.htm

Now add John Elway... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/E/ElwaJo00.htm

He looks far more like Elway than Vick. And Elway had what? 15 seasons? Of course, that sorta makes your argument look a bit silly.
Again, missing the point. This isn't about size. It's about play style and how that will affect Ben's future. Elway's willingness to concede to pressure was quite well noted. Vick, on the other hand doesn't and he gets destroyed. His injury rate being higher than Ben's likely is the cause of size, but Ben's size hasn't stopped him from getting injured.


Quite well noted? Great, present it. Elway got old and couldn't run like when he was first in the league. He adapted due to lack of physical skill. Find me the article that says, yeah, he's still has those same skills - just chooses not to use them. You wont find it. But if you think Elway took dives that's just not true. He just used what skills he had left to make more time to throw the ball down field - which is what Big Ben does. He's just bigger and stronger so he breaks more tackles than Elway or Vick could ever dream of.

As far as injury rate it hasn't let him miss anymore time than anyone as you'd love to convey. You can't go off injury reports as those are quite deceptive, yet that's where you'd love to turn your argument - it would never be proved or disproved. Now make a real argument, not just your words (some facts that we can verify or end it.


My true belief is this thread reeks of ESPN or some pregame announcers mixed with fans hatred of the man. Its the kinda thing where these announcers fill time without stats in front of them and have dated scouting reports or talking points to fill time.

I also think there are fans that hate Big Ben. But unfortunately there's nothing to hate about his on field performances... He's a QB that's done it all and on some of the biggest stages. So now he's reckless... Whatever...
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
Because its wrong. Heck, reread the original post as OP would like us to do - you're clearly disagreeing with it! Why? Because you need to infer what isn't there.
Where am I disagreeing with the OP?

Quote:
You're the one claiming I'm not watching him play. If only really watched... No kettle needed, its as arrogant as one can get when not putting any proof down. That it's humorous is on you, not me and pointing it out isn't the same as doing it...
I think you missed what I was actually saying. His play style allows him to get hit.

Quote:
Quote:
1. At least.
What?
He does it more, that's why I said at least.

Quote:
Simply no... It hasn't been shown to pop up more than any other QB. Just because someone says something (which isn't true) doesn't mean anything was shown... Heck, I've been asking for this proof. I've posted numbers, those numbers don't show it. As far as an injury ending the man's career, he's been in the league 9 years - we're getting to the borrowed time portion. This is exactly why I brought up RBs. It's become a truism that after 30 they're done. But the number can be plus or minus 2-3 years. Sure QBs might have a couple extra, but it's no more than that. Ben is 30, is he in decent enough shape to get 2 more years? Sure. Hence, it would be the same as me saying right now AP better change his running style and be less physical. I'm doing nothing but playing averages.
You posted numbers that don't prove anything.

Tell, me, who is more injury prone a RB who tears his ACL and misses 16 games or a RB who has 8 different injuries that leads to missing 12 games? Which guy do you think is more likely to get injured again based on what we already know?

Quote:
What is this supposed to mean? Are we to list how many times he shows on an injury report? This would be crazy and many times just end in an argument over how injured was Big Ben. The only measure I can go by are starts out of probably due to injuries happening on the field.


Which is still more than other players.

Quote:
No, at that (15 sec) mark the ball is being snapped... Play ends on 19 (secs in) when he's wrapped up. 4 seconds. This isn't an 8 second play, you're making stuff up. Even OP says this play isn't really indicative of Big Ben's reckless style. Problem is, you've put so much on the line in this thread claiming your reading comprehension is better and that you REALLY watch Ben (and I don't) that you are now arguing with a clock on a video and going against the OP and his point (which was wishy washy at best).
The ball is being snapped there?



That is the first frame of the video when it cuts to the play. Let me know how the ball is being snapped.

Quote:
Yeah, give me comparable stats... That'd be useful and the more the better, not just 1-2 guys. But in 9 years he's missed 7 games due to injuries sustained on the field. That's less than one a season. True his success wont stop him from getting injured, but if he changes his game and isn't successful (for fear's sake) what's the point? NFL player's careers are short, he's already HAD a good career. You can't guarantee extra time, as this injury proves! HE can't get younger so his time will end anyway. It's not infinite as you'd all like to believe.
It's not just the amount of time that he has missed, but the volume of injuries that have led to missing time. It's the volume of injuries that suggests the point, not the time missed.

Quote:
Brady - 15 games
Manning - 16 games
Jason Campbell -13 games
Rex Grossman - Well over 16 games due to injury
Michael Vick - 24 games
Matt Stafford - 16 - 4 years
Sam Bradford 6 games - 3years
Alex Smith - 25 games
Big Ben Rothlisberger - 7 games

Which one of these doesn't belong! Which one of these doesn't belong! Come on everyone, sing with me..!
Okay, now how many injuries led to these missed games?


Quote:
If the point is QB's just get injured, that's not a point. It's directed at a particular player for the way he plays... There is no proof said player is anymore injury prone or holding his team back or that we can predict future outcomes - that's my point.
The point is that his playstyle leads to him taking hits, which leads to a higher volume of nicks and such that have causes Ben to miss time on multiple occasions and that the OP believes will eventually lead to a big injury that may shorten his career.

Quote:
Quite well noted? Great, present it. Elway got old and couldn't run like when he was first in the league. He adapted due to lack of physical skill. Find me the article that says, yeah, he's still has those same skills - just chooses not to use them. You wont find it. But if you think Elway took dives that's just not true. He just used what skills he had left to make more time to throw the ball down field - which is what Big Ben does. He's just bigger and stronger so he breaks more tackles than Elway or Vick could ever dream of.
None of that is what I said at all. Elway was a guy who didn't do things that created the opportunity for a big hit. He would mak plays with his legs, but when it wasn't there, he conceded to the pressure instead of standing tall and taking a huge hit.

Quote:
As far as injury rate it hasn't let him miss anymore time than anyone as you'd love to convey. You can't go off injury reports as those are quite deceptive, yet that's where you'd love to turn your argument - it would never be proved or disproved. Now make a real argument, not just your words (some facts that we can verify or end it.
That was never the argument.

Quote:
I also think there are fans that hate Big Ben. But unfortunately there's nothing to hate about his on field performances... He's a QB that's done it all and on some of the biggest stages. So now he's reckless... Whatever...
That's not the point at all. The OP said he likes watching Ben play. I love Ben as a player. I think those outside football knocks on him are ridiculous. The OP just believes his play style could cause problems long term for him
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?

Big Ben would probably have more rings if he didn't take hits and get injured. He cost his teams wins when he gets injured. Aaron Rodgers used to be like Big Ben too. He would always run with the ball, take hits, then eventually get injured, and it cost his wins. Now Aaron Rodgers plays more careful and doesn't take hits, that's why Packers have been so good as of recent.
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terbo559 wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?

Big Ben would probably have more rings if he didn't take hits and get injured. He cost his teams wins when he gets injured. Aaron Rodgers used to be like Big Ben too. He would always run with the ball, take hits, then eventually get injured, and it cost his wins. Now Aaron Rodgers plays more careful and doesn't take hits, that's why Packers have been so good as of recent.


What does that have to do with his line not blocking for him; thus leading to two unblocked LB's hitting him in a situation where he didn't scramble?
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Pats#1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
terbo559 wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?

Big Ben would probably have more rings if he didn't take hits and get injured. He cost his teams wins when he gets injured. Aaron Rodgers used to be like Big Ben too. He would always run with the ball, take hits, then eventually get injured, and it cost his wins. Now Aaron Rodgers plays more careful and doesn't take hits, that's why Packers have been so good as of recent.


What does that have to do with his line not blocking for him; thus leading to two unblocked LB's hitting him in a situation where he didn't scramble?


You do understand that this thread is about Big Ben throughout his career right?

This most recent injury simply reminded me of all the injuries Big Ben has seemed to have had over his career, playing through them or not, and how it could end up costing him some years off his career as he progresses in age.

I'm pretty sure he was scrambling to the right on that most recent play by the way....could be wrong tho.
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Bobikus


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

terbo559 wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?

Big Ben would probably have more rings if he didn't take hits and get injured. He cost his teams wins when he gets injured. Aaron Rodgers used to be like Big Ben too. He would always run with the ball, take hits, then eventually get injured, and it cost his wins. Now Aaron Rodgers plays more careful and doesn't take hits, that's why Packers have been so good as of recent.


Rodgers still has one of the highest sack%s in the league.
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steelcurtain29


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pats#1 wrote:
steelcurtain29 wrote:
terbo559 wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?

Big Ben would probably have more rings if he didn't take hits and get injured. He cost his teams wins when he gets injured. Aaron Rodgers used to be like Big Ben too. He would always run with the ball, take hits, then eventually get injured, and it cost his wins. Now Aaron Rodgers plays more careful and doesn't take hits, that's why Packers have been so good as of recent.


What does that have to do with his line not blocking for him; thus leading to two unblocked LB's hitting him in a situation where he didn't scramble?


You do understand that this thread is about Big Ben throughout his career right?

This most recent injury simply reminded me of all the injuries Big Ben has seemed to have had over his career, playing through them or not, and how it could end up costing him some years off his career as he progresses in age.

I'm pretty sure he was scrambling to the right on that most recent play by the way....could be wrong tho.


My point is still made. His entire career, sans one year; Ben has been running for his life. He's not Michael Vick, who runs the moment the snap is made. Ben does it because he has to. What else does he do? Stand still and get hit; resulting in no plays? Or run for it and make plays?

Either way, he gets hit. His choice is to make plays while doing so, not give them up.
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terbo559


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steelcurtain29 wrote:
Pats#1 wrote:
steelcurtain29 wrote:
terbo559 wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?

Big Ben would probably have more rings if he didn't take hits and get injured. He cost his teams wins when he gets injured. Aaron Rodgers used to be like Big Ben too. He would always run with the ball, take hits, then eventually get injured, and it cost his wins. Now Aaron Rodgers plays more careful and doesn't take hits, that's why Packers have been so good as of recent.


What does that have to do with his line not blocking for him; thus leading to two unblocked LB's hitting him in a situation where he didn't scramble?


You do understand that this thread is about Big Ben throughout his career right?

This most recent injury simply reminded me of all the injuries Big Ben has seemed to have had over his career, playing through them or not, and how it could end up costing him some years off his career as he progresses in age.

I'm pretty sure he was scrambling to the right on that most recent play by the way....could be wrong tho.


My point is still made. His entire career, sans one year; Ben has been running for his life. He's not Michael Vick, who runs the moment the snap is made. Ben does it because he has to. What else does he do? Stand still and get hit; resulting in no plays? Or run for it and make plays?

Either way, he gets hit. His choice is to make plays while doing so, not give them up.

I understand he does have a horrible offensive line. That being said, the reason why the dude gets injured a lot is because defensive players hits him hard. Defensive players tends to hit quarterbacks that are more likely to escape from them harder than other quarterbacks. This is the reason why Vick and Big Ben often gets injured. A lot of Big Bens injuries occurs when he has pressure all in his face, but he still tries to escape as much as he can from the pressure, which is good, but defensive players are going to come at him and hit him harder to get him to the ground. This shows how tough he is because he is not afraid to take big hits even when he knows those big hits are coming if he doesn't take a sack.

My point is that if he sometimes play it safe, just cover himself and take a sack instead of taking big hits, then he would be able to stay healthy longer. Even taking a 5-10 yard sack is better than risking getting injured to hurt your team.
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