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Big Ben's toughness his own worst enemy???
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sp6488


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomRalph wrote:
sp6488 wrote:
Bobikus wrote:
A lot of that really is on the coaches' decision to play him during those injuries. We probably should have done like other teams at this point and invest a bit more than a last round pick on a backup QB just so we'd have someone on roster that the coaches would trust in a needed game over Ben playing at maybe 50% at best.


http://www.footballsfuture.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=504862

Kind of funny how close together that thread and this statement were made.


They did invest a late round pick in a QB, Dennis Dixon, oh wait, he's not on the team anymore. wasted pick. Wink


Except for the fact that he was 2-1 as a starter playboy (and gave the Ravens fits in the loss) .
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kethnaab


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NFL_Advisor wrote:
Ben is to blame for his conditioning. Being in great shape is one of the reasons to avoid injuries or nagging injuries. He better start losing some weight


Ben came into camp this year in the best shape he's been in since his 2nd season in the NFL. He was leaner and quicker than he's been in over half a decade.

this was a freak injury.

He definitely shouldn't have gone out last year, and our offensive line has definitely sucked, but here's the thing. Guys like Ben and Troy play with blatant disregard for their health and their bodies. They go way over the line. It causes them to get injured more often than other players. It also helped us win 2 Super Bowls, get to a 3rd, and be competitive. It's how they play. they can't change that, nor should they. I do think a bit more discretion is in order, but they are who they are, and that's how they became successful athletes
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Dunderhead


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?



and you completely 100% missed the point.
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JaguarCrazy2832


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

like a fighter that refuses to tap, that toughness is great if you can still go on, but if you let them break your arm then its not worth it
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Dunderhead


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
What the heck?!?

Big Ben has 2 rings! Few players ever get the chance at that kinda glory once, but twice is amazing. He's been to another SB, how anyone can question this man is nuts.

And by the end of a regular season every QB has injuries of some sort, don't fool yourselves. This is a sport for tough guys and because Big Ben is one of the toughest guys he has 2 rings.

Sit around and question why a winner like him just doesn't give up? Why a winner like this doesn't take it easy for awhile? My gosh, if he wasn't like that - if that wasn't in his DNA he'd be nothing. A scrub.

Sorry, but this is fan thinking. Its guys that swill too much beer and think they can do what these world class athletes can do. And to ask that Big Ben plays afraid? Hey, how's that working out for David Carr? At least he can live to run or take a dive another day, huh?



and you completely 100% missed the point.


No, I got it... There is no point to a thread like this. Here's the thesis statement from the OP:

But I also think that as he progresses in age, his toughness is going to be the demise of him.

The toughness of almost all great players are their demise. Sans what? Barry Sanders and Jim Brown? And neither of those guys took dives or went easy.

Most players play till they can play no more. Most all players end careers because ball clubs don't give them contracts. Why? Injuries are predominately the reason. Average life span of what 3 years for NFL careers? Doesn't leave much room for waiting for the right moment to show what you got.

Truth is, you don't know when that career ending shot will happen so if you don't play like every snap could be your last - someone will.

The point? Wow...
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
No, I got it... There is no point to a thread like this. Here's the thesis statement from the OP:


No, you clearly missed it. Ben allows himself to take shots that no player should be taking because of his toughness. He stands in there and gets throttled all the time. This isn't to say he needs to hide in the corner like a scared girl. There is a happy medium between taking every shot and curling up in the fetal position at the sight of a pass rush. The thought process of the OP is that the risks he subjects himself to are more likely to cause him major problems than a QB like Manning or Brady (who even they have had serious injuries) who have found a way to stand in there and make plays all while limiting the big hits they take.
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Dunderhead


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iPwn wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
No, I got it... There is no point to a thread like this. Here's the thesis statement from the OP:


No, you clearly missed it. No, I didn't you clearly have... I put the thesis down, it's in red. Ben allows himself to take shots that no player should be taking because of his toughness. How do you know this? You're making stuff up. He stands in there and gets throttled all the time. All the time? Hardly. Yeah, he'll take a shot to make a play, this is different than what great QB? Again, you're making stuff up. This isn't to say he needs to hide in the corner like a scared girl. There is a happy medium between taking every shot and curling up in the fetal position at the sight of a pass rush. And you know this how? What is the "happy medium"? The thought process of the OP is that the risks he subjects himself to are more likely to cause him major problems than a QB like Manning or Brady (who even they have had serious injuries) - which coincidentally goes against your whole hypothesis... Why would you continue? Thanks for the help! who have found a way to stand in there and make plays all while limiting the big hits they take.


What way? I still see them take hits. Ben's been in this league for 9 seasons. A third of them have lead to Super Bowl appearances. Big Ben doesn't have a quick release like Manning or Brady - how would you turn him into "those guys"? Those guys that have missed far more time than Big Ben.

Seriously, 9 seasons is a long career already... Nobody is offering evidence (hint- cause there is none) that his style of play leads to anymore injuries or anymore lost time. After 9 seasons you aren't cutting your career short. It really is very very rare players play 15+ seasons, not the norm. A decade in which he has lead the Steelers to 3 SB appearances, 2 wins is all a fan could ask for... Yet I still think he has more, this isn't the end of Ben.

I mean, I could wait until every back, including AP turns 30 and start a thread... How's this, "AP's tough running style will be end of his career"... Statistically it's a smart bet. I should look like Nostradamus 99% of the time. Do you think AP should start running only off tackle and out of bounds? Darn it, had he only done that 3 years earlier! Please...
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eagles101


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
iPwn wrote:
Dunderhead wrote:
No, I got it... There is no point to a thread like this. Here's the thesis statement from the OP:


No, you clearly missed it. No, I didn't you clearly have... I put the thesis down, it's in red. Ben allows himself to take shots that no player should be taking because of his toughness. How do you know this? You're making stuff up. He stands in there and gets throttled all the time. All the time? Hardly. Yeah, he'll take a shot to make a play, this is different than what great QB? Again, you're making stuff up. This isn't to say he needs to hide in the corner like a scared girl. There is a happy medium between taking every shot and curling up in the fetal position at the sight of a pass rush. And you know this how? What is the "happy medium"? The thought process of the OP is that the risks he subjects himself to are more likely to cause him major problems than a QB like Manning or Brady (who even they have had serious injuries) - which coincidentally goes against your whole hypothesis... Why would you continue? Thanks for the help! who have found a way to stand in there and make plays all while limiting the big hits they take.


What way? I still see them take hits. Ben's been in this league for 9 seasons. A third of them have lead to Super Bowl appearances. Big Ben doesn't have a quick release like Manning or Brady - how would you turn him into "those guys"? Those guys that have missed far more time than Big Ben.

Seriously, 9 seasons is a long career already... Nobody is offering evidence (hint- cause there is none) that his style of play leads to anymore injuries or anymore lost time. After 9 seasons you aren't cutting your career short. It really is very very rare players play 15+ seasons, not the norm. A decade in which he has lead the Steelers to 3 SB appearances, 2 wins is all a fan could ask for... Yet I still think he has more, this isn't the end of Ben.

I mean, I could wait until every back, including AP turns 30 and start a thread... How's this, "AP's tough running style will be end of his career"... Statistically it's a smart bet. I should look like Nostradamus 99% of the time. Do you think AP should start running only off tackle and out of bounds? Darn it, had he only done that 3 years earlier! Please...


franchise qbs do last a long time. everyone knows that rbs have shorter careers because of the abuse they take. qbs on the other hand take half the abuse and last twice as long.

they are also not saying anything about his success what so ever. or how good he has done.


the point is that he plays with recklessly and it has taken a toll on his body. and that has a high chance of ending his career early.
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Dunderhead


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

eagles101 wrote:


franchise qbs do last a long time. I'm sure you've done no research on this, otherwise all evidence would show otherwise... everyone knows that rbs have shorter careers because of the abuse they take. qbs on the other hand take half the abuse and last twice as long. Says who? You guys are making stuff up!

they are also not saying anything about his success what so ever. Because that would debunk their argument? or how good he has done. But his success is in DIRECT correlation to how he plays this game!


the point is that he plays with recklessly and it has taken a toll on his body. Then there is absolutely no point (even though this is changing the OP's moot point to one even worse). He's not reckless... He doesn't play LBer too and Special Teams! He's not throwing blocks on every play. I've watched him, he looked good all season has played really well. Statistically this is his 3rd best season? YOUR ARE MAKING STUFF UP! and that has a high chance of ending his career early.


HE'S IN HIS 9TH SEASON! There is no early at this point, the Steelers are just getting huge dividends at this point for the draft pick. This is exactly what I said about Rbs... There's a life span to all this...

Look at Montana... Guy's first season as a starter is 81 he last till really 90, yeah he bounces but that's not the great Montana... Aikman - 89 to 2000. Mc Nabb 12 years... Steve McNair... Look at when these guys became starters til the gig was up...

Peyton Manning, Favre, Brady... These guys are exceptions in every way, not the rule, and the rules help their style of play. It's very custom. Big Ben isn't those guys...
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plain and simple without the way he plays the Steelers would not have 3 Super Bowl appearances since he came to town. I'm sure he'll take it even if it takes some time off his career. What's better? A 16 year career of never coming close or a 12 year career with making it multiple times?
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Yes, Victor Cruz is a bigger asset to a QB than Antonio Brown is. Id be hard-pressed to find many people that would take the latter.


JerseysFinest27 wrote:
10. Antonio Brown


Cruz wasnt even an HM
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tylerdouglass


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BlaqOptic wrote:
Plain and simple without the way he plays the Steelers would not have 3 Super Bowl appearances since he came to town. I'm sure he'll take it even if it takes some time off his career. What's better? A 16 year career of never coming close or a 12 year career with making it multiple times?


I think his quality of life after football is more important than either of those.
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BlaqOptic


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:
Plain and simple without the way he plays the Steelers would not have 3 Super Bowl appearances since he came to town. I'm sure he'll take it even if it takes some time off his career. What's better? A 16 year career of never coming close or a 12 year career with making it multiple times?


I think his quality of life after football is more important than either of those.


And Ben's quality of life after football will probably be more effected by a motorcycle accident than his on-the-field football... Motorcylce accident included loss of 20 pounds, a concussion, severe internal bleeding, etc...

On the field he's had knee injury, shoulder injury, broken nose and a concussion. Those first 3 are things anyone can have. In fact my cousin has had the knee and nose injuries. Is her QoL gonig to be bad?
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JerseysFinest27 wrote:
Yes, Victor Cruz is a bigger asset to a QB than Antonio Brown is. Id be hard-pressed to find many people that would take the latter.


JerseysFinest27 wrote:
10. Antonio Brown


Cruz wasnt even an HM
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iPwn


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dunderhead wrote:
No, I didn't you clearly have... I put the thesis down, it's in red.
Just because you write something down doesn't mean you understand the implications behind the statement.

Quote:
How do you know this? You're making stuff up.
Have you watched him play? Like really watched him play? At least 2-3 times a game, he will sit in the pocket, move around, wait and wait for a play to develop, move around some more, before making the play. It leads to him getting drilled a lot more often than he needs to. Take a look at the play that got him injured. Tell me how many other QBs would have done all that dancing around at that point trying to make a play instead of conceding the sack. Vick and who else?

Quote:
Hardly. Yeah, he'll take a shot to make a play, this is different than what great QB? Again, you're making stuff up.
He does it far more than any other QB I can think of, other than Vick.

Quote:
And you know this how? What is the "happy medium"?
How do I know this? Because a lot of other QBs are able to mitigate big hits with their play style. The happy medium is finding a way to make plays to help your team while mitigating your risk for injury.

Quote:
which coincidentally goes against your whole hypothesis... Why would you continue? Thanks for the help!
How does it go against the hypothesis? Because you can get hurt, getting hurt more often isn't an issue? Those guys have had a combined two injuries that led to them missing time. Ben has had what? 6?

Quote:
What way? I still see them take hits. Ben's been in this league for 9 seasons. A third of them have lead to Super Bowl appearances. Big Ben doesn't have a quick release like Manning or Brady - how would you turn him into "those guys"? Those guys that have missed far more time than Big Ben.
The "success rate" isn't relevant to the argument at all. The fact that he can make it to the Super Bowl doesn't mean he's going to not get injured.

Quote:
Seriously, 9 seasons is a long career already... Nobody is offering evidence (hint- cause there is none) that his style of play leads to anymore injuries or anymore lost time.
Look at his injury history. Look at Mike Vick's injury history. Then look at the injury history of other QBs. You really think he's taking no more hits than all these other QBs and is just having more injuries that have led to missing time because he's fragile?
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FourThreeMafia


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tylerdouglass wrote:
BlaqOptic wrote:
Plain and simple without the way he plays the Steelers would not have 3 Super Bowl appearances since he came to town. I'm sure he'll take it even if it takes some time off his career. What's better? A 16 year career of never coming close or a 12 year career with making it multiple times?


I think his quality of life after football is more important than either of those.


Football players know the risks when they get into football.

Not that I dont want these players to have a good life after football, but they know that lifelong pains are a very real possiblity when they decide to make it their life.
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