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Cough's outside the box mock
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ch8878


Joined: 12 Mar 2012
Posts: 2620
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang no 2nd round or 5th round pick do the Raiders have a 7th ?
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6470
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Top 15 is too high for a RT. period. Iirc, it MAY have happened twice (where the player was drafted specifically to play RT) and probably to same bad organization, and that's not counting Tryon Smith who was drafted to be the eventually successor at LT. That is a fundamental flaw making it highly unlikely to come to fruition.

In addition, while technically sound Matthews is on the smallish side. Keep in mind the NFL draft is also about upside. It's laughable to suggest Matthews will be drafted over Lewan who is very long. If the Raiders both drafted a SMALL RT in the Top 15 AND left Lewan on the board words could not describe how I would lose it.


Welcome to my mock Very Happy ive been waiting to get your opinion on my picks....

Just curious why is Taylor better at Ot than Jake? length? fundamentals? what? or is it stricly a LT vrs RT thing.

ps: I watched mich play today (btw that TE in you mock from iowa looks legit) and i saw taylor struggle at times vrs stunts and blitzes.


I haven't broken down the game yet but I did DVR it specifically to look at Lewan and CJ. I appreciate that you took a look at Fiedorowicz, that's why I make mocks (and read them) to spark interest in draft prospects. What tiny bit of the game I did see, Joeckel's cut blocking was sick. wow.

Based on what we know right now Lewan and Matthews possess very similar in intangibles: technique, leadership, work ethic, character, extensive experience in ZBS & performance against elite competition. However, Lewan has superior measureables (which is why he plays on the left), hence a higher upside.
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15251
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Top 15 is too high for a RT. period. Iirc, it MAY have happened twice (where the player was drafted specifically to play RT) and probably to same bad organization, and that's not counting Tryon Smith who was drafted to be the eventually successor at LT. That is a fundamental flaw making it highly unlikely to come to fruition.

In addition, while technically sound Matthews is on the smallish side. Keep in mind the NFL draft is also about upside. It's laughable to suggest Matthews will be drafted over Lewan who is very long. If the Raiders both drafted a SMALL RT in the Top 15 AND left Lewan on the board words could not describe how I would lose it.


Welcome to my mock Very Happy ive been waiting to get your opinion on my picks....

Just curious why is Taylor better at Ot than Jake? length? fundamentals? what? or is it stricly a LT vrs RT thing.

ps: I watched mich play today (btw that TE in you mock from iowa looks legit) and i saw taylor struggle at times vrs stunts and blitzes.


I haven't broken down the game yet but I did DVR it specifically to look at Lewan and CJ. I appreciate that you took a look at Fiedorowicz, that's why I make mocks (and read them) to spark interest in draft prospects. What tiny bit of the game I did see, Joeckel's cut blocking was sick. wow.

Based on what we know right now Lewan and Matthews possess very similar in intangibles: technique, leadership, work ethic, character, extensive experience in ZBS & performance against elite competition. However, Lewan has superior measureables (which is why he plays on the left), hence a higher upside.


i agree with everything except technique and performance vrs elite comp. I think Jake is better than Taylor in both. some thing Taylor struggles in such as stunts and blitzes Jake performs like a vet showing excellent technique, punch and footwork. the sec has provided jake the chance to show his stuff vrs some of the best defenses/defensive players the ncaa has to offer. I also think if it wasnt for Luke, Jake would start at LT. Its going to be interesting to see how this situation plays out.

what do you think about the rest of the mock?
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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RunDmc23


Joined: 25 Dec 2010
Posts: 234
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
But why the hell would you take a DT over a solid OT at any point in the draft? If your OL is crappy like ours is, Matthews is the player for us. And who cares if he is a RT? We already have a solid young LT and there is a gaping hole on the other side of the OL.

Give me Matthews before a DT any day of the week.


BPA


If it were my choice between the two the BPA would be Matthews.


this.
a OT can help us better than a DT right now.


How our defense is horrible right now giving up record setting days week in and week out..Star should be the pick or trade down and get manti teo or a DE
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15251
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RunDmc23 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
But why the hell would you take a DT over a solid OT at any point in the draft? If your OL is crappy like ours is, Matthews is the player for us. And who cares if he is a RT? We already have a solid young LT and there is a gaping hole on the other side of the OL.

Give me Matthews before a DT any day of the week.


BPA


If it were my choice between the two the BPA would be Matthews.


this.
a OT can help us better than a DT right now.


How our defense is horrible right now giving up record setting days week in and week out..Star should be the pick or trade down and get manti teo or a DE


how many points did the offense score today?
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
Posts: 12363
Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
RunDmc23 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
DOCLEW 28 wrote:
But why the hell would you take a DT over a solid OT at any point in the draft? If your OL is crappy like ours is, Matthews is the player for us. And who cares if he is a RT? We already have a solid young LT and there is a gaping hole on the other side of the OL.

Give me Matthews before a DT any day of the week.


BPA


If it were my choice between the two the BPA would be Matthews.


this.
a OT can help us better than a DT right now.


How our defense is horrible right now giving up record setting days week in and week out..Star should be the pick or trade down and get manti teo or a DE


how many points did the offense score today?


You're OK w/ giving up 140something points in the last three games??? LOLLLL

Logic goes out the window as long as you get your guy who might be the highest drafted RT in the history of the game (b/c no one is dumb enough to do it and he's not a LT no matter what you think) instead of a high profiled run stuffer..... you make TONS of sense.
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
Posts: 6470
Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
NCOUGHMAN wrote:
Baggabonez wrote:
Top 15 is too high for a RT. period. Iirc, it MAY have happened twice (where the player was drafted specifically to play RT) and probably to same bad organization, and that's not counting Tryon Smith who was drafted to be the eventually successor at LT. That is a fundamental flaw making it highly unlikely to come to fruition.

In addition, while technically sound Matthews is on the smallish side. Keep in mind the NFL draft is also about upside. It's laughable to suggest Matthews will be drafted over Lewan who is very long. If the Raiders both drafted a SMALL RT in the Top 15 AND left Lewan on the board words could not describe how I would lose it.


Welcome to my mock Very Happy ive been waiting to get your opinion on my picks....

Just curious why is Taylor better at Ot than Jake? length? fundamentals? what? or is it stricly a LT vrs RT thing.

ps: I watched mich play today (btw that TE in you mock from iowa looks legit) and i saw taylor struggle at times vrs stunts and blitzes.


I haven't broken down the game yet but I did DVR it specifically to look at Lewan and CJ. I appreciate that you took a look at Fiedorowicz, that's why I make mocks (and read them) to spark interest in draft prospects. What tiny bit of the game I did see, Joeckel's cut blocking was sick. wow.

Based on what we know right now Lewan and Matthews possess very similar in intangibles: technique, leadership, work ethic, character, extensive experience in ZBS & performance against elite competition. However, Lewan has superior measureables (which is why he plays on the left), hence a higher upside.


i agree with everything except technique and performance vrs elite comp. I think Jake is better than Taylor in both. some thing Taylor struggles in such as stunts and blitzes Jake performs like a vet showing excellent technique, punch and footwork. the sec has provided jake the chance to show his stuff vrs some of the best defenses/defensive players the ncaa has to offer. I also think if it wasnt for Luke, Jake would start at LT. Its going to be interesting to see how this situation plays out.

what do you think about the rest of the mock?


I just finished breaking down the TexAM/Iowa game. My boy CJ Fiedorowicz had an outstanding game after I questioned his hands with an 8 reception, 99 yd game! Good for him hopefully he didn't just play himself into the 3rd round. CB Hyde was relatively quite but had an athletic zone pick. Lewan had another outstanding game. He wasn't beaten once and I'm pissed because I had to attentively watch waiting to see him miss a block on a stunt or blitz.

I'm sorry but your going to have to be more specific about what game and qtr you saw Lewan misread a blitz. I don't want a lot of time on another rouse. It shouldn't be too hard given that you suggested it's his weakness. If it's determined that Lewan's bad film does exist then I apologize, however at this moment it appears that once again it seems you allow your bias to create a narrative that doesn't exist.

With both their bodies of work in, what's most important now is combine measureables. My main concerns are can Lewan's frame hold more weight as well as matthews' frame and arm length.

As far as the rest of the mock:

I think it would be the first time in the history of the NFL 3 prospects from the same school were drafted by the same team. But I know that mocks are more figurative than literal and you are suggesting these are the TYPES of prospects the Raiders need (at least I hope that's what you're thinking because a near all TexAM draft ain't happening).

Not very familiar with Porter. Admittedly, I have a bias against 230lb Lbs with the exception of DaVonte David who I used in mocks last seasons. Currently, I would never put a 230lb behind a DL that struggles to keep LBs clean.

Thank you for turning me on to Sanders Commings. Solid CB from an excellent program. I would love to see Commings in action at FS on the collegiate level.

I've broken down Gayle before and used him in a mock. Given his measureables Gayle's play is disappointing . . . outside of alsoran Duke that is.

My first impression of Ealey is intriguing. However he was recently arrested and had disciplinary issues at UGA. He is not a prospect McKenzie would be interested in, imo.

I'm not familiar with OC Lewis, but he does fit in with your masterplan of ultimately moving Wiz back to LG. Here's the deal with Wiz at LG . . . . . well . . . . he sucked. Admittedly, he showed some rookie promise but I believe that the coaching staff quickly realized that Wiz can excel the most at OC. Let's get over moving Wiz back to LG it's a rare convert back once it happens.
_________________
Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15251
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylor vs ND
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EhJdcnRBxo

1:16- doesnt lock on to defender and finish block and ends up eating turf
1:54- gives up a inside move and a sack (i dont know what he is complaining to the ref about either)
2:44- whiffs on a screen block play

i could nitpick about the handful of times that he fails to even find someone to block. maybe it was nerves but he settled down as the game progressed.
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15251
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taylor vrs bama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k1mjmGSa80

-00:32- almost gives up the sack on a speed rush robinson saved himself but taylor got flagged but he ripped the defenders helmet off which was kinda cool
-1:04- pulling and tackles a guy getting another flag
-1:46- thrown to the ground eats turf

other than that it was a pretty solid game for him
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
Posts: 15251
Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

btw i dont want to move wiz to OG i think he is a good OC. im just saying that Lewis gives us some flexability and could be depth at OC or OG and might even push to start at OG given our current roster
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NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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Location: RaiderNation
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You clearly stated that Lewan's flaw in his game was his inability to correctly diagnose blitz pickups and stunts. I didn't see ANY of that here. Others are welcome to review and give comments if you see something I missed.

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
taylor vs ND
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EhJdcnRBxo

1:16- doesnt lock on to defender and finish block and ends up eating turf
While Lewan does get initially beaten on an excellent swim move, Lewan does not end up "eating dirt" which suggests a whiff and recovers enough to prevent his man from making penetration which would ended up in a tackle for loss. The backside defender actually makes the play with Lewan's man assisting.

1:54- gives up a inside move and a sack (i dont know what he is complaining to the ref about either)
Lewan is complaining about the punch to his facemask . . . clearly.

2:44- whiffs on a screen block play
LOL. In actuality Lewan does an excellent job of fighting through the trash on an ill-fated screen pass to actually make some contact on the block as both the DL, OLB & CB have all correctly sniffed out the screen. Lewan should be getting lauded on this play actually.
i could nitpick about the handful of times that he fails to even find someone to block. maybe it was nerves but he settled down as the game progressed.


NCOUGHMAN wrote:
taylor vrs bama

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k1mjmGSa80

-00:32- almost gives up the sack on a speed rush robinson saved himself but taylor got flagged but he ripped the defenders helmet off which was kinda cool
I had to rewatch it several times to find the penalty. Lewan removes the defender's helmet from the backside.

Almost immediately Lewan realizes that he has allowed the defender to get inside his hands and gain leverage. Knowing that he is already beaten and can't recover I actually find it quite clever that in the face of a daunting pass rush Lewan attempted to both blind the defender by tilting the pass rushers helmet forward from the backside and shield the ref from the offense. Excellent call by the ref.


-1:04- pulling and tackles a guy getting another flag
That would be called a pancake. Followed by the look of disgust over a bad call at 1:13 by his coach.

-1:46- thrown to the ground eats turf
Clearly beaten, but again his man does not make the play.
other than that it was a pretty solid game for him


All OTs get beaten, Lewan is no different. However none of these clips display a lack of ability to correctly diagnose the blitz or stunts. All you proved was that Lewan is beatable. The few times he was beaten it was by an elite defender making an excellent play but collectively these clips hardly paint Lewan as "leaky".
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ fair enough. tomato, tomahto.
also jake faced way more elite defenders than taylor.

im still looking for more tape but thats all i could find so far.
blitz pickups and stunts were from the mich/iowa game.

is there any bad tape on jake?
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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Baggabonez


Joined: 29 Apr 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NCOUGHMAN wrote:
^ fair enough. tomato, tomahto.
also jake faced way more elite defenders than taylor.

im still looking for more tape but thats all i could find so far.

is there any bad tape on jake?


Whether or not Matthews has faced more elite defenders isn't really the issue. Although one would usually assume that the LT would face better pass rushers as most defenses desire to attack the QB's blindside. Searching for Lewan's bad film is an effort of futility. On occasion Lewan does get beaten but we all know he's an elite prospect.

I haven't broken down Matthews, in 2012, extensively nor do I intend to unless there is an indication the Raiders may trade down. Imo, McKenzie is really into high character guys so he may be attracted to Matthews, who is devout Christian, and I have used Matthews in a mock before (Ver.1).

You've been blessed with selective comprehension, you read into to things the way you want to fit whatever narrative you've got going (i do not mean this in an insulting way). I don't think there is bad tape on Matthews. Matthews is an excellent prospect. However, I think Lewan will ultimately grade out higher than Matthews after the combine as Matthews is high on intangibles but his measureables my come up a bit short.

RTs are usually girthy as that is the power running side. Matthews doesn't have a great base although he makes up for it with great fundamentals. However, if Matthews also has short arms he will fall in the draft as a light, short-armed, finesse RT. Perhaps he could flip to the left successfully but that would chip away at your narrative that Veldheer should remain at LT. Hence, if Jake is a LT the Raiders aren't going to draft the smallest of the 3 despite his character (or the least amount of upside) and if he's a RT no one with sense takes a RT in the Top 10.

This is just for fun. NONE of our mocks are going to happen. However, jmvho, if you added a trade down this mock would make tons more sense and prob add a 2nd. But all in all it's already a good mock.
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Nodisrespect wrote:
(on building inside out) teams without highly draft DT's make the playoffs and win the superbowl regularly.

Bonez wrote:
Teams that win Superbowls and make the playoffs aren't picking in the Top 5, clearly
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NCOUGHMAN


Joined: 25 Mar 2008
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Location: Stockton via East Palo Alto
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i know exactly what you mean. im just sold on jake and yes i still wish we would trade down but i didnt do trades on this mock.
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green24 wrote:
NCOUGHMAN > all of you


Raider X wrote:
This is football, not pussology 101
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