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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nfldraftguru1 wrote:
The guy has posted a WAR of 2.0 over 2 seasons. That's one win per season from a guy who supplies bad defense, which WAR can't currently quantify at the C position properly. It's not outlandish to say that JPA is close to replacement level if you factor in C defense.

His highest wRC+ has been 92. His career OBP is .275, highest is .282. He strikes out nearly 30% of the time, and has a 6.3% BB rate for his career.

JPA simply isn't good. Yes, he hits for some power. So does Miguel Olivo in the right enviroment. Take JPA out of the launching pad for righties in Toronto, and his counting numbers look a lot worse (HRs/RBIs).


You're right, he may as well retire before spring.



Nobody, at least not me, said he was even marginal defensively. That's no reason to get defensive whenever someone points out Arencibia is a catcher with some offensive ability - given, his 2011 production notably surpasses last season's.
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nfldraftguru1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
The guy has posted a WAR of 2.0 over 2 seasons. That's one win per season from a guy who supplies bad defense, which WAR can't currently quantify at the C position properly. It's not outlandish to say that JPA is close to replacement level if you factor in C defense.

His highest wRC+ has been 92. His career OBP is .275, highest is .282. He strikes out nearly 30% of the time, and has a 6.3% BB rate for his career.

JPA simply isn't good. Yes, he hits for some power. So does Miguel Olivo in the right enviroment. Take JPA out of the launching pad for righties in Toronto, and his counting numbers look a lot worse (HRs/RBIs).


You're right, he may as well retire before spring.



Nobody, at least not me, said he was even marginal defensively. That's no reason to get defensive whenever someone points out Arencibia is a catcher with some offensive ability - given, his 2011 production notably surpasses last season's.


Thing is. He doesn't have much offensive value. He can't get on-base at all, he's got some power, but nothing special considering his home park.
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BillsGuy82


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nfldraftguru1 wrote:
Purple-Pride07 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
The guy has posted a WAR of 2.0 over 2 seasons. That's one win per season from a guy who supplies bad defense, which WAR can't currently quantify at the C position properly. It's not outlandish to say that JPA is close to replacement level if you factor in C defense.

His highest wRC+ has been 92. His career OBP is .275, highest is .282. He strikes out nearly 30% of the time, and has a 6.3% BB rate for his career.

JPA simply isn't good. Yes, he hits for some power. So does Miguel Olivo in the right enviroment. Take JPA out of the launching pad for righties in Toronto, and his counting numbers look a lot worse (HRs/RBIs).


You're right, he may as well retire before spring.



Nobody, at least not me, said he was even marginal defensively. That's no reason to get defensive whenever someone points out Arencibia is a catcher with some offensive ability - given, his 2011 production notably surpasses last season's.


Thing is. He doesn't have much offensive value. He can't get on-base at all, he's got some power, but nothing special considering his home park.


OK we get it, you don't like JPA. But let's not act like he is worthless, and he doesn't have15-20 HR potential in just about any ballpark. Coming from the Catcher position it gives him some value
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ramssuperbowl99


Joined: 15 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BillsGuy82 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
Purple-Pride07 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
The guy has posted a WAR of 2.0 over 2 seasons. That's one win per season from a guy who supplies bad defense, which WAR can't currently quantify at the C position properly. It's not outlandish to say that JPA is close to replacement level if you factor in C defense.

His highest wRC+ has been 92. His career OBP is .275, highest is .282. He strikes out nearly 30% of the time, and has a 6.3% BB rate for his career.

JPA simply isn't good. Yes, he hits for some power. So does Miguel Olivo in the right enviroment. Take JPA out of the launching pad for righties in Toronto, and his counting numbers look a lot worse (HRs/RBIs).


You're right, he may as well retire before spring.



Nobody, at least not me, said he was even marginal defensively. That's no reason to get defensive whenever someone points out Arencibia is a catcher with some offensive ability - given, his 2011 production notably surpasses last season's.


Thing is. He doesn't have much offensive value. He can't get on-base at all, he's got some power, but nothing special considering his home park.


OK we get it, you don't like JPA. But let's not act like he is worthless, and he doesn't have15-20 HR potential in just about any ballpark. Coming from the Catcher position it gives him some value
If you stick Yuni Betancourt in Toronto, he has 15-20 HR potential.

If all you can do is hit home runs, you stink. Ask Ryan Howard.
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nfldraftguru1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
BillsGuy82 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
Purple-Pride07 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
The guy has posted a WAR of 2.0 over 2 seasons. That's one win per season from a guy who supplies bad defense, which WAR can't currently quantify at the C position properly. It's not outlandish to say that JPA is close to replacement level if you factor in C defense.

His highest wRC+ has been 92. His career OBP is .275, highest is .282. He strikes out nearly 30% of the time, and has a 6.3% BB rate for his career.

JPA simply isn't good. Yes, he hits for some power. So does Miguel Olivo in the right enviroment. Take JPA out of the launching pad for righties in Toronto, and his counting numbers look a lot worse (HRs/RBIs).


You're right, he may as well retire before spring.



Nobody, at least not me, said he was even marginal defensively. That's no reason to get defensive whenever someone points out Arencibia is a catcher with some offensive ability - given, his 2011 production notably surpasses last season's.


Thing is. He doesn't have much offensive value. He can't get on-base at all, he's got some power, but nothing special considering his home park.


OK we get it, you don't like JPA. But let's not act like he is worthless, and he doesn't have15-20 HR potential in just about any ballpark. Coming from the Catcher position it gives him some value
If you stick Yuni Betancourt in Toronto, he has 15-20 HR potential.

If all you can do is hit home runs, you stink. Ask Ryan Howard.


Precisely. Below average offense with well below average defense is not valuable.
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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
If you stick Yuni Betancourt in Toronto, he has 15-20 HR potential.

If all you can do is hit home runs, you stink. Ask Ryan Howard.


Very likely the case, but Yuni continues to be employed as well. You have me mistaken if you think I'm suggesting he's anything more than pedestrian, but he's not worthless is the only point I'm making.

guru brought up Miguel Olivo for example. A player who's been acquired, legitimately (discounting the Jays trade), seven times, by six different organizations, consecutively, over the course of 11 seasons. Obviously coveted, to some extent, for what ever it is he offers an organization. Nobody is going to argue he's a valuable commodity, but it's difficult to say he's a sad, diseased, horrible, useless waste of skin and flesh who doesn't deserve to live.
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nfldraftguru1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
If you stick Yuni Betancourt in Toronto, he has 15-20 HR potential.

If all you can do is hit home runs, you stink. Ask Ryan Howard.


Very likely the case, but Yuni continues to be employed as well. You have me mistaken if you think I'm suggesting he's anything more than pedestrian, but he's not worthless is the only point I'm making.

guru brought up Miguel Olivo for example. A player who's been acquired, legitimately (discounting the Jays trade), seven times, by six different organizations, consecutively, over the course of 11 seasons. Obviously coveted, to some extent, for what ever it is he offers an organization. Nobody is going to argue he's a valuable commodity, but it's difficult to say he's a sad, diseased, horrible, useless waste of skin and flesh who doesn't deserve to live.


Lolz I gotta chuckle out of the last part.

He's not useless, just nobody should be running trying to get him. He's nothing more than a slightly above replacement level backup.
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ramssuperbowl99


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purple-Pride07 wrote:
ramssuperbowl99 wrote:
If you stick Yuni Betancourt in Toronto, he has 15-20 HR potential.

If all you can do is hit home runs, you stink. Ask Ryan Howard.


Very likely the case, but Yuni continues to be employed as well. You have me mistaken if you think I'm suggesting he's anything more than pedestrian, but he's not worthless is the only point I'm making.

guru brought up Miguel Olivo for example. A player who's been acquired, legitimately (discounting the Jays trade), seven times, by six different organizations, consecutively, over the course of 11 seasons. Obviously coveted, to some extent, for what ever it is he offers an organization. Nobody is going to argue he's a valuable commodity, but it's difficult to say he's a sad, diseased, horrible, useless waste of skin and flesh who doesn't deserve to live.
If JPA was DFA'd and put on waivers, I'm sure some teams would claim him. But there is a HUGE difference between, "yeah, what the hell, we'll give you a shot" and "yeah, you're worth a significant prospect/player so we'll trade you for him". JPA is just more like the former than the latter.
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fishfan13


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If JP Arencibia is a .250/.300/.450 catcher with below average defence and decent game calling skills, batting from the 8 or 9 hole, does that make him a valuable player?

He only has 2 years in the big leagues and has room to improve. To be fair, I am really not expecting that much improvement, but I do believe he hits 25+ homeruns if healthy. Add in the rest of that batting line and that doesnt seem like a bad player.
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nfldraftguru1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishfan13 wrote:
If JP Arencibia is a .250/.300/.450 catcher with below average defence and decent game calling skills, batting from the 8 or 9 hole, does that make him a valuable player?

He only has 2 years in the big leagues and has room to improve. To be fair, I am really not expecting that much improvement, but I do believe he hits 25+ homeruns if healthy. Add in the rest of that batting line and that doesnt seem like a bad player.


Except he's more of a .230/.280/.430 C with a 25% K-rate. And adding the rest of his batting line to his homeruns makes it worse since power is his only tool. And even that isn't more than averagish.
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green24


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As many shortcomings as he may have, I would love for the Mets to get Arencibia. He is far better than Josh Thole.
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fishfan13


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nfldraftguru1 wrote:
fishfan13 wrote:
If JP Arencibia is a .250/.300/.450 catcher with below average defence and decent game calling skills, batting from the 8 or 9 hole, does that make him a valuable player?

He only has 2 years in the big leagues and has room to improve. To be fair, I am really not expecting that much improvement, but I do believe he hits 25+ homeruns if healthy. Add in the rest of that batting line and that doesnt seem like a bad player.


Except he's more of a .230/.280/.430 C with a 25% K-rate. And adding the rest of his batting line to his homeruns makes it worse since power is his only tool. And even that isn't more than averagish.


Im not convinced what we've seen the last 2 years is his ceiling. I think people tend to foreget he is only entering his 3rd year in the majors (excluding a cup of coffee), I dont expect an approach change or anything drastic, but a slight uptick in numbers isnt out of the question for JP.
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nfldraftguru1


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fishfan13 wrote:
nfldraftguru1 wrote:
fishfan13 wrote:
If JP Arencibia is a .250/.300/.450 catcher with below average defence and decent game calling skills, batting from the 8 or 9 hole, does that make him a valuable player?

He only has 2 years in the big leagues and has room to improve. To be fair, I am really not expecting that much improvement, but I do believe he hits 25+ homeruns if healthy. Add in the rest of that batting line and that doesnt seem like a bad player.


Except he's more of a .230/.280/.430 C with a 25% K-rate. And adding the rest of his batting line to his homeruns makes it worse since power is his only tool. And even that isn't more than averagish.


Im not convinced what we've seen the last 2 years is his ceiling. I think people tend to foreget he is only entering his 3rd year in the majors (excluding a cup of coffee), I dont expect an approach change or anything drastic, but a slight uptick in numbers isnt out of the question for JP.


He's still basically Miguel Olivo. Nice waiver pickup but nothing you give up something of value for. He might net you a MR.
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titans_5


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hes 26 years old, to say hes reached his potential and all you re gonna get is a 230 average with a 280 obp is as ridiculous and closed minded as saying hes going to be buster posey.

Arencibia is a decent catcher, a bit below average defensively, but watching him he did look like hes getting better as the season went on. His offense is fine.

Also for those of you saying that the skydome (rogers center) is a home run park. This is not true, its ranked 15th right in the middle of the league (HR rate 1.03). It just comes off as a conformational bias cause we have Joey and Edwin routinely launching taters over the right field fence.

yes i used espn, shoot me... the stats are all thats needed though..

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/sort/HRFactor
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Purple-Pride07


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nfldraftguru1 wrote:
Lolz I gotta chuckle out of the last part.

He's not useless, just nobody should be running trying to get him. He's nothing more than a slightly above replacement level backup.


I try. Cool

I think there's a disconnect between you and Rams, and I.
I'm not suggesting, nor have I, that he's anything more than slightly above replacement level, and I certainly am not suggesting, again nor have I, that he'd fetch a "significant prospect/player" as rams intimated.

What I am saying is he's spent two full seasons in the major league and has obvious upside that remains untapped. How much is there left to tap? The hell if we know, and it surely won't be anything noteworthy, but when healthy and performing to his abilities, I.e. a little more like 2011 and a little less like 2012, he can help, in-part, contribute to a ball club. Again, I think you're drastically mistaking what my point is if you think I'm arguing he'd be worth a good prospect or player.

Regardless, he quite obviously has more value to the team he's currently on than any team attempting to acquire him in a trade. And if he's dealt, I don't imagine it'd be for cash considerations or a player to be named, is all I'm saying. Whether that's what anyone feels he's worth, or not.
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