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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
Posts: 21397
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?


That's not the point and you know it, the point is, it's going to be easier to complete your passes when you're not asked to throw a lot and you have a respected running game, which is something you don't want to consider. you are strictly a stat guy and that's fine.


How am i strictly a stat guy? Give me something that tells me he is top 10 then. Ive asked like 100 times now. And also what do you consider a respected running game. at least 100 yards a game average or 90 or 80. Just wondering.
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CrashMan510


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

they've been inconsistent.

Vs Atlanta, Denver, and Jacksonville they were awful

Vs Pittsburgh, San Diego, and KC they were great

Vs Miami, Baltimore, and TB they were solid

I don't know where they rank around the league and i really don't care. Overall, in pass pro they've been solid. The running game has really held back our offense
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Burgesskills


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

His completion percentage is decent, but a lot of his completions, a lot have come on dump offs.

I'm not waffling at all, I think he's played decently has done some to help the team this, year and some to hurt the team.

Dante somes it up, he doesn't get us in the endzone, especially early in the game.

Tagg you have no real argument. You want to quote reporters. Ron Jaworski ranked him 21st in the league, I have a few notches higher, but you keep saying top ten....you have no evidence to back up you theory.
You then try to say top 7....I could easily name 7 QB;s that are playing much better;

Brees, Rogers, Ben, P. Manning, Brady, Freeman, Matt Ryan. Not even close to being ranked wih them. If you think so, then you're out of your mind...no need to even argue with you anymore.

Easily top ten 10? So that means there is no doubt that he has also been better than Andrew Luck, easily better than Schaub, easily better than Andy Dalton, easily than RG3, easily than Stafford...do I need to go on? Than Wilson/Smith...while his % is lower, turned the ball over more, but he's passed for more yards, but his rating is either on par with their's, or much lower. No doubt he's been better and how?

Because you see it, when you watch the games? While watching our losses, you think "no doubt, Palmer is clearly a top ten QB.

After that evidence...there is no need to continue.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 10062
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?


That's not the point and you know it, the point is, it's going to be easier to complete your passes when you're not asked to throw a lot and you have a respected running game, which is something you don't want to consider. you are strictly a stat guy and that's fine.


How am i strictly a stat guy? Give me something that tells me he is top 10 then. Ive asked like 100 times now. And also what do you consider a respected running game. at least 100 yards a game average or 90 or 80. Just wondering.


At least 115 yards per game or more
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
CrashMan510 wrote:
O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.


Not that bad, but I'd still say we're bottom 7, which isn't that good either.


Anything to back this up?


Technically, no, because all Oline stats are misleading, and a lot of factors go into it, I go with what I see, when Khalif Barnes is in we are middle of the road, with Willie in, they are a lot worse.


So out of seeing all 32 teams pass block you think we are bottom 7 when Willie Smith plays. Ok dude, i disagree. Just to name 7 who is worse, jags, Cardinals, Bears, Panthers, Skins, Rams, Cowboys, and Chargers. I could also add Packers and Jets to.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?


That's not the point and you know it, the point is, it's going to be easier to complete your passes when you're not asked to throw a lot and you have a respected running game, which is something you don't want to consider. you are strictly a stat guy and that's fine.


How am i strictly a stat guy? Give me something that tells me he is top 10 then. Ive asked like 100 times now. And also what do you consider a respected running game. at least 100 yards a game average or 90 or 80. Just wondering.


At least 115 yards per game or more


By that there is only 13 respected run games in the league. 8 of them are lead by QBs who I will not argue are better than palmer. So out of the guys I think are better than Palmer at least 6 of them dont have respected run games buy you definition.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok Dante...my Top Ten....this year...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Matt Ryan
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Matt Schaub
8. Josh Freeman
9. Carson Palmer
10. Andy Dalton

Who would you argue should be ahead of him? Again, I think it all comes down to preference and judging the situations

Like for instance, I think Eli is having a pretty bad year considering his supporting cast, but you may think he should be ahead of Palmer, becuase his team has more wins or something
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?


That's not the point and you know it, the point is, it's going to be easier to complete your passes when you're not asked to throw a lot and you have a respected running game, which is something you don't want to consider. you are strictly a stat guy and that's fine.


How am i strictly a stat guy? Give me something that tells me he is top 10 then. Ive asked like 100 times now. And also what do you consider a respected running game. at least 100 yards a game average or 90 or 80. Just wondering.


At least 115 yards per game or more


By that there is only 13 respected run games in the league. 8 of them are lead by QBs who I will not argue are better than palmer. So out of the guys I think are better than Palmer at least 6 of them dont have respected run games buy you definition.


Who are the guys you think are better than Palmer?
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Keleth


Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:

So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different.


They do work that way sort of.
The more passes you throw the higher the % you have of throwing an incompletion or int.
Someone used Smiths 18 of 19 stat earlier which is a 95% completion rate.
However what is the chance of him throwing 304 passes in a season and completing 288 of them to give him a 95% completion rate for the season.
His percentage of completions is highly likely to be a lot lower over the season than in 1 game because he throws more passes.

Adds nothing to the argument about Palmer but hell it is something different.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Ok Dante...my Top Ten....this year...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Matt Ryan
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Matt Schaub
8. Josh Freeman
9. Carson Palmer
10. Andy Dalton

Who would you argue should be ahead of him? Again, I think it all comes down to preference and judging the situations

Like for instance, I think Eli is having a pretty bad year considering his supporting cast, but you may think he should be ahead of Palmer, becuase his team has more wins or something


Lists looks solid. I would put Rivers and Romo ahead of both Palmer and Dalton. Dalton and Palmer is pretty close to.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Ok Dante...my Top Ten....this year...

1. Peyton Manning
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Tom Brady
4. Matt Ryan
5. Drew Brees
6. Ben Roethlisberger
7. Matt Schaub
8. Josh Freeman
9. Carson Palmer
10. Andy Dalton

Who would you argue should be ahead of him? Again, I think it all comes down to preference and judging the situations

Like for instance, I think Eli is having a pretty bad year considering his supporting cast, but you may think he should be ahead of Palmer, becuase his team has more wins or something


Lists looks solid. I would put Rivers and Romo ahead of both Palmer and Dalton. Dalton and Palmer is pretty close to.


Why Rivers? he has more picks in 75 less attempts, same amount of wins and a defense that allows ten less ppg than the Raiders. Not to mention he threw away at least two games this year with terrible late game decisions, which is what you give Palmer grief for. San Diego fans are asking themselves if Rivers is starting to actually hold them back, that's not the case in Oakland.

Romo is arguable, sure, but he has 3 less TD's and 3 more picks, a worse rating, and a statistically top 10 defense (in yards allowed, 17th in points allowed though). Sure, he has one more win, but last week his D/ST was responsible for 14 points. I'm a big Romo fan so I won't argue him too much, and he does in fact have a [inappropriate/removed] poor rushing attack as well, but does have a very solid WR group and a HOF TE.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?


That's not the point and you know it, the point is, it's going to be easier to complete your passes when you're not asked to throw a lot and you have a respected running game, which is something you don't want to consider. you are strictly a stat guy and that's fine.


How am i strictly a stat guy? Give me something that tells me he is top 10 then. Ive asked like 100 times now. And also what do you consider a respected running game. at least 100 yards a game average or 90 or 80. Just wondering.


At least 115 yards per game or more


By that there is only 13 respected run games in the league. 8 of them are lead by QBs who I will not argue are better than palmer. So out of the guys I think are better than Palmer at least 6 of them dont have respected run games buy you definition.


I didn't say every QB needs an elite rushing attack to win (some do) I never said Palmer needed one either, but at least an average run game, and a decent defense, or even a poor run game and a very good defense. Like I said, you give him SOME help, and he can lead us to wins, he's not a QB that needs to be surrounded by elite talent, but if one phase of our team can step up, he can lead us to W's, or at least be competitive (depends who we're playing) our talent level....just sucks.

Honestly,I'd much rather not have to rely on the QB to have to will us to victory every week. Team wins are much more rewarding, but it seems like most of you don't believe in that. It seems like most would rather be built like the Saints rather than the Texans, I'm the opposite.

Palmer gives us the best shot at winning without the need to have elite talent around him, but I won't say he doesn't need some help, because he does, and it seems like that's a negative towards palmer for most of you, and that if he was a good QB he should be able to lead us to victory no matter how crappy the rest of the team plays, and that's just not realistic.

Obviously, I wouldn't mind a pay cut, but to me, it's not necessary because I think he is our best bet for the next couple of years, especially considering I don't see any QB in this draft ready to step in on day one and start, so IF we do draft a QB I'd prefer him sit behind Palmer while we build a team around him that he can take over in a few years. Rebuilding or not, whether we draft a QB this year or in two years, Palmer should still be our QB. It's not about having our ceiling with him only being 6 wins, it's about him giving us a legit shot to be competitive even while we rebuild this team. It just depends what the FO's plans are, and what year they're planning on taking a QB, because eventually we are going to need one. I see more QB's in the 2014 draft that could start day one opposed to the 2013 draft, but either way I see him here for another two years.

For all we know, we draft the next Blaine Gabbert, cut Palmer, and we're back to square one. Better to be safe than sorry.

Or we cut him, and don't draft a QB, then where does that leave us? Relying on Pryor?

We'll maybe have some more money, but we'll be a worse team with another added need to address.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting in perspective, I'm pretty sure guys like Bradford, Sanchez, Vick and Rivers are paid more than Palmer this year. I could be wrong though.

I know some say, "Why pay a QB that money to lose" well you don't know that, and the FO doesn't have that mind set, If they believe they can win with him and he gives them the best shot at success, they'll pay him that $13 mil, if not, they will cut him, restructure or ask him to take a pay cut.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Putting in perspective, I'm pretty sure guys like Bradford, Sanchez, Vick and Rivers are paid more than Palmer this year. I could be wrong though.

I know some say, "Why pay a QB that money to lose" well you don't know that, and the FO doesn't have that mind set, If they believe they can win with him and he gives them the best shot at success, they'll pay him that $13 mil, if not, they wil cut him, restructure or ask him to take a pay cut.


Bradford, Rivers and Sanchez was drafted. Vick will be cut this offseason I can almost bet my life on that. Its not about this year its about his salary bump and next year. People want to believe the FO doesnt have that mindset and want to believe that every GM goes into each season believing they have the roster to win a superbowl. I can honestly say I dont believe that. Palmer may be here next season cause he is the only option or cause he maybe the one reason to get people still come to games, or cause he will be the one recognizable name on the roster next season. I dont believe he will be here cause they think he can lead this roster to the playoffs.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Putting in perspective, I'm pretty sure guys like Bradford, Sanchez, Vick and Rivers are paid more than Palmer this year. I could be wrong though.

I know some say, "Why pay a QB that money to lose" well you don't know that, and the FO doesn't have that mind set, If they believe they can win with him and he gives them the best shot at success, they'll pay him that $13 mil, if not, they wil cut him, restructure or ask him to take a pay cut.


Bradford, Rivers and Sanchez was drafted. Vick will be cut this offseason I can almost bet my life on that. Its not about this year its about his salary bump and next year. People want to believe the FO doesnt have that mindset and want to believe that every GM goes into each season believing they have the roster to win a superbowl. I can honestly say I dont believe that. Palmer may be here next season cause he is the only option or cause he maybe the one reason to get people still come to games, or cause he will be the one recognizable name on the roster next season. I dont believe he will be here cause they think he can lead this roster to the playoffs.


I never said Super bowl, but being competitive each game or being blown out each game can be the difference between a Coach/GM keeping their job or getting fired, so you better believe they will keep the best option there is to win us/keep us in games, and Palmer has shown that ability to do that when the rest of the team plays at least average (or even when they don't, see Tampa Bay game). One can only assume that our roster will hopefully be a little better each year from here on out.
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