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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
Posts: 10013
Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.


No it doesn't, and when you look at the 5 QB's that are within 15 attempts of him, he's 2nd in completion percentage. There's a lot of factors that play into it, I would expect someone like Wilson or Smith, who has attempted more than 100 less passes than Palmer, to have a higher percentage.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.


No it doesn't


Why doesnt it? He has been sacked 17 times. unless you telling me, that you think he is more mobile and kove in the pocket better than Rodgers 29 times or even Jay Cutler 28 times. But somehow Patriots line is beastly and has allowed 15 sacks and our oline sucks and has allowed only 17. Alright dude if you say so. Only person who suck and I mean plain sucks at pass pro is W Smith and he is a back up.
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Nodisrespect


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.
He's not a top 10 qb to me, by my measurement. Look at his QB rating he's 16th and his QBR is 21st in the league. I agree that it's wrong when people point to his passing yards and say "see he is the least of worries, he's great and the team sucks" He's not great, just good with a clear distinction.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.


No it doesn't, and when you look at the 5 QB's that are within 15 attempts of him, he's 2nd in completion percentage. There's a lot of factors that play into it, I would expect someone like Wilson or Smith, who has attempted more than 100 less passes than Palmer, to have a higher percentage.


Actually he is tied for 3rd. Stafford and Brees have better %. Eli and him is tied and the person who is 5th is a rookie. Not sure what difference any of that makes though.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.


No it doesn't


Why doesnt it? He has been sacked 17 times. unless you telling me, that you think he is more mobile and kove in the pocket better than Rodgers 29 times or even Jay Cutler 28 times. But somehow Patriots line is beastly and has allowed 15 sacks and our oline sucks and has allowed only 17. Alright dude if you say so. Only person who suck and I mean plain sucks at pass pro is W Smith and he is a back up.


So because he isn't sacked a lot means he has to be mobile? oh ok, its more of a compliment to something you say he doesn't have, pocket presence and getting the ball out quickly.

He has been sacked 17 times, and hit 44 times.

This can be attributed to O line, and QB play, he does a great job making quick decisions and getting the ball out quickly.
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CrashMan510


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.


No it doesn't


Why doesnt it? He has been sacked 17 times. unless you telling me, that you think he is more mobile and kove in the pocket better than Rodgers 29 times or even Jay Cutler 28 times. But somehow Patriots line is beastly and has allowed 15 sacks and our oline sucks and has allowed only 17. Alright dude if you say so. Only person who suck and I mean plain sucks at pass pro is W Smith and he is a back up.


So because he isn't sacked a lot means he has to be mobile? oh ok


No top 7 worthy. You guys act like i said he was David Carr. Im saying it isnt good enough for top 7. But ill wait for you to explain why he is top 10, why the oline sucks in pass pro, and the other things I seem to not be able to get an answer form you or Jtagg on.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashMan510 wrote:
O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.


Not that bad, but I'd still say we're bottom 7, which isn't that good either.

and your #2 point makes it harder for Palmer as well, which is why his cmp% is obviously going to be down.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?
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Darkness


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrashMan510 wrote:
O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.


I'll add a few more points about what the lack of a run game has on the offense.

3. Play-action is ineffective without a running game. That's one of Palmer's best attributes.

4. 3rd down distances are longer, making them harder to convert. That leads to 3 and outs, stalled drives, less TOP, and less points.

I put the blame on Knapp, but regardless, the lack of a running game is killing this team.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
CrashMan510 wrote:
O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.


Not that bad, but I'd still say we're bottom 7, which isn't that good either.


Anything to back this up?
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darkness wrote:
CrashMan510 wrote:
O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.


I'll add a few more points about what the lack of a run game has on the offense.

3. Play-action is ineffective without a running game. That's one of Palmer's best attributes.

4. 3rd down distances are longer, making them harder to convert. That leads to 3 and outs, stalled drives, less TOP, and less points.

I put the blame on Knapp, but regardless, the lack of a running game is killing this team.


I agree with all of this. Lack of running game makes it harder on everyone, no doubt about that.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Out of the 18 ahead of him in cmp% 7 of them haven't even attempted 300 passes, then 6 more are Roethlisberger, Ryan, Brees, Brady, Rodgers and Manning, which noone is saying he's better than. That Leaves 5; Romo (3 less TDs, 3 more INTs, lower rating), Ponder (Self explanatory, he should have a higher % when half of his throws are screens to Harvin. AP.) Fitzpatrick (very low YP/A, 52 less att, 1 more INT, same rating), Dalton (good defense, O line and top 2 WR, been sacked more, 2 more INTs, 500 less yards on 65 less att) and Stafford (worse rating, 4 less TDs, has CJ, good pass blocking O line, less yards on 13 more att, lower yp/a)


So cause they havent attempted 300 passes means there % should be better than Palmer's. Is that how % work? My math teacher taught me different. Im not trying to sell that Ponder or Fitz are better than Palmer . Also you say Stafford has a good passing blocking oline and we dont. How does that work?


That's not the point and you know it, the point is, it's going to be easier to complete your passes when you're not asked to throw a lot and you have a respected running game, which is something you don't want to consider. you are strictly a stat guy and that's fine.

Have you watched a Lions game this year? His pass blocking is above average, but he holds on to the ball which makes their numbers not look as good, and even with that, he's still been hit less than Palmer, on 13 more drop backs
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
CrashMan510 wrote:
O-Line in pass pro hasn't been that bad, really. Ive said it all year, the running game has screwed the whole offense up. Because we're so pathetic at running the ball this happens...

1- We throw the ball 40 times per game, you drop back 40 times per game and any O-Line is going to look and be shaky

2- Our WR's have to work harder to get open because no defense respects our ability to run the ball.

The running game has screwed up the whole offense, you can blame Knapp and the ZBS all you want but its all on the players, they have all been pathetic in that area all year long.


Not that bad, but I'd still say we're bottom 7, which isn't that good either.


Anything to back this up?


Technically, no, because all Oline stats are misleading, and a lot of factors go into it, I go with what I see, when Khalif Barnes is in we are middle of the road, with Willie in, they are a lot worse.
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