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Silver&Black88


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Its not black and white, just give me reasons why he is playing better than other QBs other than he is putting up decent stats on a bad team. Thats all I ask. If he is arguably top 7 I do not see why that should be hard.


Seems legit.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Because the argument would just go in circles. You cant say remember what the other QBs have to work with so then use that exact same argument to prove Palmer is better. You saying Schaub would play worse is an opinion, there is no way of knowing that. I mean its like arguing if Jerry Rice would had been as good without Joe and Steve throwing him the ball. And how do you figure Schaub is having a subpar year. So you feel Palmer is playing better than him cause we ask him to pass more and carry our bad defense. How does that work? How do you prove Schaub is playing better or at least the same level he just isnt ask to do the same things Palmer is.

I mean they have the same avg per attempt, Schaub has 2 less TDs, and 3 less picks. Com % is 61.3 to 62.9 in favor of Schaub and QB rating is higher for Schaub. I dont see how you can say Palmer has been better. I know you will feed me what would Palmer do on the Texans, probably the same as Schaub cause they wouldnt ask him to pass as much and to be careful with the ball.

I mean look at Palmer career stats they are all pretty close to what he has done this year. Unless you going to tell me that since 2008 you think some of those Bengals teams was just as bad as we are now.


Well I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. I enjoy theorizing those things based on how they're performing in situations. I don't look at things as black and white as you seem to like to do.


Its not black and white, just give me reasons why he is playing better than other QBs other than he is putting up decent stats on a bad team. Thats all I ask. If he is arguably top 7 I do not see why that should be hard.


Why is he not? You can give an argument, since you're asking for one.


His comp %(accuracy), his inability to get the team in the endzone and finish drives in the redzone. His ability to throw an interception at the worse possible time. His lack of mobility and pocket presence.

Also the only stat he is top 10 in is TD and yards. and he isnt top 10 in td/int ratio.
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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Location: Somewhere in Ohio
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
Cause their QBs are putting up great stats even though not having great running games and bad defenses. Steelers finally got a running game last 2 or 3 weeks. Im just saying other QBs are in bad situations and are putting up better stats. Thats all Im saying. Palmer is putting up stats that basically cosign with what he has done the last 4 or 5 years of his career.


Which teams have a worse offensive line AND running game than us?
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JTagg7754


Joined: 09 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
His comp %(accuracy), his inability to get the team in the endzone and finish drives in the redzone. His ability to throw an interception at the worse possible time. His lack of mobility and pocket presence.

Also the only stat he is top 10 in is TD and yards. and he isnt top 10 in td/int ratio.


Wanna know how I know you're either not watching games or are incredibly bias?
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is Greg Cossell right after we made the trade, talking about Carson Palmer...

Quote:
Q: Tell us your thoughts on Carson Palmer.

COSELL: Iíve seen every single throw heís made in his NFL career. Hereís the way I would describe it. From 2005-2007 he was the third best quarterback in football behind Manning Brady, Brady Manning, whatever your choice may be. I thought after his injury that he lost some arm strength, and I thought it was evident last year in particular. I donít think the ball came out quite the same way, but thatís a relative term. Itís not as if he canít throw. I think this is a huge upgrade. I would have made the trade in a heartbeat. I think Palmer brings a presence to an offense. Heís a big, physical pocket quarterback, and I think that he immediately makes you more competitive in the pass game. Whether heís the player we was from 2005-2007, my answer to that would probably be no but like I said, he was the third best quarterback in football in those years. Letís say heís the twelfth best quarterback in football, thatís still pretty good. Iím just throwing that out. I havenít made a list.

Q: Could Carson Palmer regain some of that arm strength?

COSELL: I donít know if he could totally regain the strength, but he was always a very good timing and anticipation passer, so that part of his game already existed. What he had in his prime was he was something thatís pretty rare, he was a power thrower. Big arm, great velocity. He was very, very accurate. I donít know if weíll see that exact guy anymore, but like I said, he had other attributes Ė timing, anticipation, heís firm in the pocket. Heís strong. I know thereís been a lot of talk of, ďDid they give up too much?Ē I would have made the trade.

Q: Palmer had knee surgery, not elbow surgery. He almost had Tommy John surgeryÖ

COSELL: Right, and he chose not to. I donít know anything about the surgery, so I couldnít begin to tell you what the result would have been had he chose to have it, but I can tell you for a fact, and itís on film this is not speculation, he did lose some arm strength.

Q: What about Palmer as a leader?

COSELL: Itís funny you say that, because I had a really great opportunity when Carson Palmer came out of USC. He came to NFL films and spent an entire day with myself and Ron Jaworski. So, I got to know Carson, and I think heís an absolutely terrific guy. Heís not a yeller and a screamer leader like that, but I think heís one of those quiet leaders by example who shows up to work every day as a proís pro. Hue Jackson was in Cincinnati from 2004-2006 in Carsonís formative years and he knows what kind of player he is. He has a presence about him. You donít have to yell and scream to be a leader. Palmer has a presence about him, and just reading the quotes by Al Saunders, who I also know extremely well, itís evident that when he stepped on the field, that presence was there.


So Palmer, coming out of retirement, was still the 12th best QB in the league in his mind last year.

Just for the hell of it, this is what he thought about him once he saw him play...

Quote:
"I know everybody is focused on the interceptions, but I thought Palmer threw the ball extremely well. I thought he read coverage well," Cosell said. "He made about three or four 'Wow' throws. He looked comfortable in the pocket. ... He had good velocity." Palmer rarely made "Wow" throws with the Bengals the past two years. It sounds like the long layoff did his arm plenty of good.


Not using this as anything other than giving some other reporters opinions on CP.
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
His comp %(accuracy), his inability to get the team in the endzone and finish drives in the redzone. His ability to throw an interception at the worse possible time. His lack of mobility and pocket presence.

Also the only stat he is top 10 in is TD and yards. and he isnt top 10 in td/int ratio.


Wanna know how I know you're either not watching games or are incredibly bias?

Because if he had bad pocket presence, he would have been sacked at least twice as much as he's been. I bet they think Russell Wilson has great pocket presence....
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OakRaiders3828


Joined: 18 Aug 2007
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Location: Pennsylvania
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Cause their QBs are putting up great stats even though not having great running games and bad defenses. Steelers finally got a running game last 2 or 3 weeks. Im just saying other QBs are in bad situations and are putting up better stats. Thats all Im saying. Palmer is putting up stats that basically cosign with what he has done the last 4 or 5 years of his career.


Which teams have a worse offensive line AND running game than us?


Hmmm, I will say maybe the Cardinals, Jaguars and Panthers......they're QB's are doing great though!!, oh wait....And Skelton even has a pretty good defense.

Oh and that's jus offensive line, I don't think anyone has a worse run game than ours.

And I'll just add that our defense is DEAD LAST in points allowed.
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JTagg7754


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
His comp %(accuracy), his inability to get the team in the endzone and finish drives in the redzone. His ability to throw an interception at the worse possible time. His lack of mobility and pocket presence.

Also the only stat he is top 10 in is TD and yards. and he isnt top 10 in td/int ratio.


Wanna know how I know you're either not watching games or are incredibly bias?

Because if he had bad pocket presence, he would have been sacked at least twice as much as he's been. I bet they think Russell Wilson has great pocket presence....


Yeah to say Carson lacks pocket presence is just completely wrong.... like so wrong....
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dante9876 wrote:
Im just saying other QBs are in bad situations and are putting up better stats.


Lets look at this

you named the Bengals, Steelers, Chargers and Bucs right?

Bengals:

Run Game: 24th
Defense: 25th in PA, 19th in Yards allowed
Wins: 4
QB Stats: 203/315 2,329 yds 64.4% 18 TD 11 INT 91.1 rat
Sacked: 22
Best Target: AJ Green

Steelers:

Run Game: 19th
Defense: 7th in PA, 1st in yards allowed
Wins: 6
QB Stats: 209/316 2,287 yds 66.1% 17 TD 4 INT 100.0
Sacked: 18
Best Target: Mike Wallace

Chargers:

Run Game: 18th
Defense: 11th in PA, 7th in yards allowed
Wins: 3
QB Stats: 204/300 2,203 yds 67.0% 15 TD 12 INT 89.3 rat
Sacked: 22
Best Target: Antonio Gates

Buccaneers:

Run Game: 11th
Defense: 18th in PA, 31st in yards allowed (+11 Turnover ratio)
Wins: 5
QB Stats: 155/273 2,257 yds 56.8% 18 TD 5 INT 98.2 rat
Sacked: 13
Best Target: Vincent Jackson

Raiders:

Run Game: 31st
Defense: 32nd in YA, 24th in yards allowed (-4 Turnover ratio)
Wins: 3
QB stats: 230/375 2,723 yds 61.3% 15 TD 9 INT 86.8 rat
Sacked: 16
Best Target: Denarius Moore

so yeah.....

and people don't understand how much easier it is on the QB when they have an elite #1 target. those QB's should have better stats than Palmer (Rivers does not). Bens numbers are a lot better, more efficient, but the others are SLIGHTLY better than Palmers, when they should be A LOT better.

That's not mentioning the fact that he has the worst O Line out of the group, and has been sacked the 2nd least amount of times. But he has no pocket presence...
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Its not black and white, just give me reasons why he is playing better than other QBs other than he is putting up decent stats on a bad team. Thats all I ask. If he is arguably top 7 I do not see why that should be hard.


Seems legit.


It is legit thats why it hasnt been answered yet. Instead it will continue to be skipped over, and i will be called bias and people will pick one statement in one sentence to focus on cause they have no answer to this question. But somehow everyone with a semi negative opinion of Palmer is somehow the joke. I pretty sure at this point Jtagg has a binder full of Palmer's.
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dante9876


Joined: 23 Dec 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
Dante9876 wrote:
Im just saying other QBs are in bad situations and are putting up better stats.


Lets look at this

you named the Bengals, Steelers, Chargers and Bucs right?

Bengals:

Run Game: 24th
Defense: 25th in PA, 19th in Yards allowed
Wins: 4

Steelers:

Run Game: 19th
Defense: 7th in PA, 1st in yards allowed
Wins: 6

Chargers:

Run Game: 18th
Defense: 11th in PA, 7th in yards allowed
Wins: 3

Buccaneers:

Run Game: 11th
Defense: 18th in PA, 31st in yards allowed (+11 Turnover ratio)

Raiders:

Run Game: 31st
Defense: 32nd in YA, 24th in yards allowed (-4 Turnover ratio)


so yeah.....


Again can you answer why Palmer is top 7 or top 10. I answered it for you why I think he is not. I also never said those teams was worse of than us. Just said you dont need a great team to put up good stats.
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OakRaiders3828 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Cause their QBs are putting up great stats even though not having great running games and bad defenses. Steelers finally got a running game last 2 or 3 weeks. Im just saying other QBs are in bad situations and are putting up better stats. Thats all Im saying. Palmer is putting up stats that basically cosign with what he has done the last 4 or 5 years of his career.


Which teams have a worse offensive line AND running game than us?


Hmmm, I will say maybe the Cardinals, Jaguars and Panthers......they're QB's are doing great though!!, oh wait....And Skelton even has a pretty good defense.

Oh and that's jus offensive line, I don't think anyone has a worse run game than ours.

And I'll just add that our defense is DEAD LAST in points allowed.


Seriously. Are you going to tell me, that you think our oline pass blocks worse than the Packers, Eagles, Rams, and Bears. Cmon on now. I think you confusing overall oline play with Run Blocking.
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Nodisrespect


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much we traded for him.
We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Last edited by Nodisrespect on Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dante9876


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nodisrespect wrote:
Silver&Black88 wrote:
The Palmer haters are wafflers. What do you expect? The only one whose logic I don't have a big bone to pick with is oakdb. Why do you think I stopped replying to Palmer posts? Most of the hate is misguided.
There is a lot of grey area. The issue always comes back to how much money he is making and how much money he is making.

We all agree he can play QB and is good, but that's not what we expect, for his price and reputation he should be GREAT, it's awesome that he can throw for a bunch of yards, but QB's are measured by there ability to WIN. If you play great for most of the game then you turn the ball over and your team loses the whole game you had is moot, and if you suck most of the game and put up big yards when your team is losing big, that's not good enough, and never will be.

Losing is never good enough, never, never, never.

The QB is the most important player on the team, he has the ball on every offensive play, he orchestrates the offense and the makeup of the team. They call this guys franchise QB's for a reason, because they are supposed to carry there franchises, and Carson has had opportunities to separate this team this year during the Atlanta game where he gave the falcons 10 points in the second half in a game we lost by 3 on fumbles and pick sixes. Along with the TB game, the other games were not close enough, because the entire team was bad.

Those games mattered though, those game would have us at 5-4 in the hunt for the playoffs, but he can't get it done when the chips are down and that's his legacy as a QB in the NFL, and like Romo no matter what the stats say he is not good enough to get it done.

So i guess this is all about expectations, some expect greatness, while others are just happy we have a good QB and i'm with the former.


Thing is he has been Good, No one can deny that and most dont even try. But 15 mill good. I dont think so. Arguably top 7 good, heck no. Close to top 10 good maybe. Just want some sort of explanation how a QB that isnt top 10 in comp %, yards per attempt, td/int ratio, sacks allowed(which means oline is doing ok in pass blocking) is arguably a top 7 and top 10 QB.
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OakRaiders3828


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dante9876 wrote:
OakRaiders3828 wrote:
JTagg7754 wrote:
dante9876 wrote:
Cause their QBs are putting up great stats even though not having great running games and bad defenses. Steelers finally got a running game last 2 or 3 weeks. Im just saying other QBs are in bad situations and are putting up better stats. Thats all Im saying. Palmer is putting up stats that basically cosign with what he has done the last 4 or 5 years of his career.


Which teams have a worse offensive line AND running game than us?


Hmmm, I will say maybe the Cardinals, Jaguars and Panthers......they're QB's are doing great though!!, oh wait....And Skelton even has a pretty good defense.

Oh and that's jus offensive line, I don't think anyone has a worse run game than ours.

And I'll just add that our defense is DEAD LAST in points allowed.


Seriously. Are you going to tell me, that you think our oline pass blocks worse than the Packers, Eagles, Rams, and Bears. Cmon on now. I think you confusing overall oline play with Run Blocking.

Rams, we're worse, they have done a decent job dealing with injuries and just got Saffold back, Palmer has stil out played Bradford. Bears, yes we're worse, Eagles are possibly worse but not a good example given their QB play, the packers are just terrible at run blocking, might be worse now that Bulaga is on IR though, yet to be seen, but Rodgers is a future HOF and they have an opportunistic defense which is 9th in Points allowed, 11th vs the run, +5 turnover ratio and 13th in total yards allowed, and yes they still technically have a better run game than us.
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