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Horton Working To Be Less Predictable....
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

Two things strike you when you meet Ray Horton. He has plenty of hair and an equal amount of confidence. But the best coaches — really, the best anything — are humble, too. So as Horton, the Cardinals defensive coordinator, examined his group during this off week, he looked at his quality of work, too. His defense is the strength of the team, yet it looked worse than ordinary in the first halves of the past two games.

Against the 49ers and Packers, the Cardinals gave up 38 points and 465 yards in the first halves. They were much better in the second halves, yielding 17 points and 236 yards, but the damage had been done. The Cardinals aren’t good enough on offense to overcome large deficits.

“It’s dramatic,” Horton said of the difference. “That’s what we’re looking for. Why? I call a different game, I know that. I’ve called two entirely different games. In the second half, I’ve been more ‘pressure’ than I have been in the first half.

“Earlier in the first half you’re trying to protect leads and field position, and in the second half, it’s a let’s-just-go-get-them mentality.”

So does that mean Horton will be bolder in the first half from now on?

“The bye week is not over,” he said, smiling. “I’m still looking. People know what you do best. I know what we do best. I’m trying to not be so predictable.”

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/heatindex/articles/20121108arizona-cardinals-coordinator-ray-hortons-message-defense-just-tackle.html

I don't understand this logic. You're playimng field position in the first half....so you run a bland defense? That makes no sense. An aggressive, harassing defense would be more beneficial if you're playing field position. Sitting back in zones and never attacking allows team to move the ball down the field much easier. Our games the last 4 weeks are proof enough. Horton needs to pull his head out. We brought you here to put pressure on the opposing offense. Quick using these non-sense logic and just do what you were brought here to do.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
I don't understand this logic. You're playing field position in the first half....so you run a bland defense? That makes no sense. An aggressive, harassing defense would be more beneficial if you're playing field position.


It makes some sense. Sitting there with 7 men in coverage means you are much less susceptible to a big play. 3rd and Long early in the game you give up less than a first down you are happy, you have just won the field position battle. You are much more likely to give up less than the desired number of yards if you put more guys into coverage without sacrificing too much in pass rush. You would think sending Dockett/Campbell/Acho, Plus One at the QB you would still be expecting some pressure.

Quote:
Sitting back in zones and never attacking allows team to move the ball down the field much easier.


We are not sitting back in zones, we are just not sending 6 guys after the QB as much.

I understand how this can annoy people given the timing of this, but it is not like this type of calling in any different from what he called in the first four weeks of the season.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
I don't understand this logic. You're playing field position in the first half....so you run a bland defense? That makes no sense. An aggressive, harassing defense would be more beneficial if you're playing field position.


It makes some sense. Sitting there with 7 men in coverage means you are much less susceptible to a big play. 3rd and Long early in the game you give up less than a first down you are happy, you have just won the field position battle. You are much more likely to give up less than the desired number of yards if you put more guys into coverage without sacrificing too much in pass rush. You would think sending Dockett/Campbell/Acho, Plus One at the QB you would still be expecting some pressure.

Quote:
Sitting back in zones and never attacking allows team to move the ball down the field much easier.


We are not sitting back in zones, we are just not sending 6 guys after the QB as much.

I understand how this can annoy people given the timing of this, but it is not like this type of calling in any different from what he called in the first four weeks of the season.


Bolded: Not in the first half. You just saw it, straight from the man himself. He's less aggressive in the first half due in part to a field position factor. That's utter bull in my eyes and makes absolutely zero sense.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
Bolded: Not in the first half. You just saw it, straight from the man himself. He's less aggressive in the first half due in part to a field position factor. That's utter bull in my eyes and makes absolutely zero sense.


So show me once in that article where Horton says we are sitting back in zones and waiting for the play to come to us. Heck even where he says they are sitting back in zones.

He doesn't. At all.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

"Earlier in the first half you’re trying to protect leads and field position"

LOL, doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell ya what that means.
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apollo14000


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
"Earlier in the first half you’re trying to protect leads and field position"

LOL, doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell ya what that means.


But we never even have leads Confused
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
"Earlier in the first half you’re trying to protect leads and field position"

LOL, doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell ya what that means.


It tells you that you are not going to be as aggressive, not take as many risks, look to give up the short, but not the long. It does not tell you anything about the style of coverage you are going to play.

Again I will say this, this is the exact same approach that we had at the end of last year, the exact same approach that we had over the first four or five weeks of the season.

The difference now, player execution.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
"Earlier in the first half you’re trying to protect leads and field position"

LOL, doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell ya what that means.


It tells you that you are not going to be as aggressive, not take as many risks, look to give up the short, but not the long. It does not tell you anything about the style of coverage you are going to play.

Again I will say this, this is the exact same approach that we had at the end of last year, the exact same approach that we had over the first four or five weeks of the season.

The difference now, player execution.


Whether it's the same as we saw in the first 4 weeks or not is IRRELEVANT. Completely, 110% irrelevant. The offenses we've faced are entirely different. You can sit back and play zones against a NE and a PHI team that throws 50 times but you can't against a SF team that runs 50 times or a BUF team that's got CJ Spiller and a weak passing game. That's common sense. By playing the same defense (Even though HORTON HIMSELF says he isn't....), he completely ruins us.

And if it's all player execution, why is Horton saying it isn't? He's not doing it coddle the players, that's not what he does. Ask AJ Jefferson. Ask Darnell Dockett.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

apollo14000 wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
"Earlier in the first half you’re trying to protect leads and field position"

LOL, doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell ya what that means.


But we never even have leads Confused


LOL, ya. Even then, that still makes no sense. Protecting a 1st half lead? What? Why? You do realize there'll be 30 more minutes of play, right? They don't award Ws after 1 half of football.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Horton Working To Be Less Predictable.... Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
Whether it's the same as we saw in the first 4 weeks or not is IRRELEVANT. Completely, 110% irrelevant. The offenses we've faced are entirely different. You can sit back and play zones against a NE and a PHI team that throws 50 times but you can't against a SF team that runs 50 times or a BUF team that's got CJ Spiller and a weak passing game. That's common sense. By playing the same defense (Even though HORTON HIMSELF says he isn't....), he completely ruins us.

And if it's all player execution, why is Horton saying it isn't? He's not doing it coddle the players, that's not what he does. Ask AJ Jefferson. Ask Darnell Dockett.


Why are you insistening that we are sitting back and playing zones. Even when we do go to a cover 3 look our corners play aggressivly. We are not sitting back and playing passive zone coverages. We are just blitzing less, and that is exactly waht Horton says too.

Quote:
In the second half, I’ve been more ‘pressure’ than I have been in the first half.


Quote:
Rodgers said after the game it was a perfect call because the Packers knew what the Cardinals defense was going to do.

“That was on me, not the players,” Horton said.


Though I don't know the scheme as well as Horton so I will give William the benefit of the doubt here, the fact that Gay bit so hard on the playaction to me is an execution issue.

Quote:
Horton and the other assistants preached that during this off week. Just tackle. If you gave Horton one thing to change in the first nine games, that’s it.

“Yards after contact,” Horton said. “Just tackle the catch, tackle the guy in your gap. It would solve a lot of issues.”


That to me sounds like Horton saying it is an execution issue.

Tell me where he says that he has switched up his playcalling from the first four games to the last five. He never does, not once, so no idea where you are getting that from.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really care what our corners play, that wasn't my point of emphasis. My point of emphasis was the middle zone of our defense which IS sitting in soft zones, contrary to anything you can try and point out.
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khodder


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
I don't really care what our corners play, that wasn't my point of emphasis. My point of emphasis was the middle zone of our defense which IS sitting in soft zones, contrary to anything you can try and point out.


So you want our ILB's to either blitz or play man coverage the entire game?
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
I don't really care what our corners play, that wasn't my point of emphasis. My point of emphasis was the middle zone of our defense which IS sitting in soft zones, contrary to anything you can try and point out.


So you want our ILB's to either blitz or play man coverage the entire game?


I would expect our front 7 to not be less aggressive in 1 half than they are in another. We brought Ray Horton here to be aggressive for 60 minutes, not 30. If that's not the case, we could have just rode out Clancy Pendergast and for a lot less salary too.

LOL, and I certainly expect a better excuse then "I'm less aggressive in the 1st half because we're playing field position and protecting leads". I mean seriously, gimme a break Ray. That doesn't make sense on any level.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stchamp98 wrote:
I would expect our front 7 to not be less aggressive in 1 half than they are in another. We brought Ray Horton here to be aggressive for 60 minutes, not 30. If that's not the case, we could have just rode out Clancy Pendergast and for a lot less salary too.

LOL, and I certainly expect a better excuse then "I'm less aggressive in the 1st half because we're playing field position and protecting leads". I mean seriously, gimme a break Ray. That doesn't make sense on any level.


1 - Are you talking the players themselves or are you talking the playcalling. Playcalling on defense is about confusion and deception as soon as you become overly aggressive you become predictable and you become easy to attack. Playcalling needs to be balanced to be successful. That includes balance in halves as well as between halves.

Now if the players are not playing with the same intensity and aggression early in games as they do late in games then it could be an issue, and then you need to refer back to if this comes from the players being tentative or the coach asking them to keep things in front of them.

From what I got from Horton (And what I have seen backs this up) is that we blitz a lot more later in games and closer to the endzone.

2 - Agreed.
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stchamp98


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

khodder wrote:
stchamp98 wrote:
I would expect our front 7 to not be less aggressive in 1 half than they are in another. We brought Ray Horton here to be aggressive for 60 minutes, not 30. If that's not the case, we could have just rode out Clancy Pendergast and for a lot less salary too.

LOL, and I certainly expect a better excuse then "I'm less aggressive in the 1st half because we're playing field position and protecting leads". I mean seriously, gimme a break Ray. That doesn't make sense on any level.


1 - Are you talking the players themselves or are you talking the playcalling. Playcalling on defense is about confusion and deception as soon as you become overly aggressive you become predictable and you become easy to attack. Playcalling needs to be balanced to be successful. That includes balance in halves as well as between halves.

Now if the players are not playing with the same intensity and aggression early in games as they do late in games then it could be an issue, and then you need to refer back to if this comes from the players being tentative or the coach asking them to keep things in front of them.

From what I got from Horton (And what I have seen backs this up) is that we blitz a lot more later in games and closer to the endzone.

2 - Agreed.


Ya that's the problem though, as Horton is literally saying he's much more aggressive in the 2nd half of games. That's not deceptive. Coaches pick up on that and they strike. If they can strike 3-4 times in that 1st half, with our offense, the game's over (Despite the claim that our 1st half play is to protect a lead). Who cares what we do in the 2nd half then? The opposing teams definitely doesn't, they're sporting a W either way. Horton needs to be aggressive start to finish. Obviously I don't mean every single play, that'd be silly but to say we're going to "play field position" in each first half and be aggressive in each 2nd half is nuts to me.
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