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I hate to be the Debbie Downer..but it's time to shift focus
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dolphan9954


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look at Johnathon Cooper OG UNC and Latavius Murray RB UCF. My 2 prospects that I would love to have as of now. I watch a lot of ACC and C-USA ball and those two always stand out to me.
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JCool333


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ovaw8lover wrote:
This team lacks speed period. I will endorse any move that increases team speed. Have you seen us attempt to run a screen pass on offense? Its embarrassing as our lineman cant move.

They have to let Starks go. Not that he does not deserve a new contract, we just cannot afford to pay the money he will command for that position. Resources must be spread to the offense. An athletic defensive end must be drafted or signed via free agency. Odrick is not the answer. Move him inside to take over for Starks. Sean Smith has value and should be resigned so he can matchup against larger receivers but another, smaller CB needs to be drafted for the quicker guys. Im sorry but our guards need to go. They are terrible at moving laterally.


I disagree. I say keep Starks, because he won't be that expensive- just like Sollai, a Pro Bowl NT, wasn't. Plus Starks is older. If you want to get rid of someone, cut Odrick because he just hasn't proven to be a useful member of the team.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Run-Stuffing: Soliai

Collapsing the Pocket: Starks

Speed/Athleticism: Odrick


I would say that Soliai is the odd man out simply because he lacks the ability to collapse the pocket. He really is more of a 3-4 Nose just by how he plays. He eats up space and makes it really hard for teams to run the ball up the middle, but that's all he does. He doesn't collapse the pocket and doesn't have quite the amount of range we'd like to see in a DT. He's bigger and slower than what we need and anyone in our front-4 who cannot rush the passer needs to be considered a liability.

Odrick is the youngest and therefore probably the fastest and most athletic DT we have. He's also shown an ability to do an adequate job in both playing the run from the inside (34 DE) and in moving towards the QB (43 DE). He's not a great pass rusher but at least he's got more ability in that area than Soliai and that's something we need to be scouting for in our D-line--the ability to create pressure.

Starks seems to play the run fairly well while doing a better job of pressuring the pocket than Soliai. He's inconsistent but he gets his hands up at least. To me, he's doing everything, just not at an elite, Pro-Bowl level which is at least a step up from a guy like Soliai who's only doing 1 thing, eating space.


I say we move Soliai to a 34 team that wants a starting or rotational NT. That's what Soliai is. We thought he could work for us in a 43 but he can't. He's not doing anything but stuffing the run and we're trying to get beyond being a defense that's just about stuffing the run. Soliai would probably get more interest on the market, too. Odrick's a young, 1st round talent that still isn't fully developed. There's no reason to give someone else an asset like that when we'd only get a 4th or 5th round pick. Finally, Starks is a veteran but he's the most complete DT we have.
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dolphan9954


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Odrick's a young, 1st round talent that still isn't fully developed. There's no reason to give someone else an asset like that when we'd only get a 4th or 5th round pick.[/b] Finally, Starks is a veteran but he's the most complete DT we have.


This is the argument to keep Sean Smith, he wasn't a first round pick but still was a second.
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Deadeye


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
As a Clemson fan I'm not about to down Watkins, Hopkins or Ellington but Ellington's got just enough speed to take it to the house now. He's elite for the college game and he's a nice back in an offense that wants to throw primarily. Not sure how he'll look once he gets to the next level.

He's sort of a poor man's CJ Spiller. Which ain't bad but I'm not sure he'll have take-it-to-the-house speed is what I'm saying.

He'll probably be value for wherever he's taken. Where do you think he'll go in the draft? Mid-rounds?
I was hoping he'd be around with our later 3rd. Look, if he doesn't really have elite speed (which I thought he did) then we should probably pursue someone else at RB. The larger point though is that RB is NOT a position of strength. Bush is slowing down, Thomas is far from adequate as a power back, and Miller hasn't had the chance to prove much of anything yet. I want either a 2nd/3rd round RB with excellent speed and shiftiness, or a solid 4th/5th round power RB who can plow it for 2 yards when we need him to. We gotta have one or the other.
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guys, hold up. Yes there needs to be changes. But just because Smith isn't the top CB in the game doesn't mean he shouldn't be resigned.

CB's take time to develop. I am not waiting for him to be Charles Woodson, but I do think he can be an awesome #2 CB. What is that worth?

Yes we need more speed on both sides of the ball. IF Starks asks for too much, then let him go. If he fits the plan financially, then sign him.

Jones Average? Not sure about that, he has made some good plays. Off the top of my head, I think he has only given up one TD all season. Remember, safety is another position that seems to get better with experience. This is his first full season as a starter. O ya, I forgot, this is Dolfanland. If you suck in one game, we want to run you out of town.

Put it in perspective.

I think guards are easier to replace than tackles, and I thought I heard there will be a bunch of them this offseason. We need some speed at WR. A TE like Eifert will help in the run and the passing game.

There are options, and mocks are great, but we still have what 7 games to go? Lets not get frusterated over one or two games.
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ProudDolphan47


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
Guys, hold up. Yes there needs to be changes. But just because Smith isn't the top CB in the game doesn't mean he shouldn't be resigned.

CB's take time to develop. I am not waiting for him to be Charles Woodson, but I do think he can be an awesome #2 CB. What is that worth?

Yes we need more speed on both sides of the ball. IF Starks asks for too much, then let him go. If he fits the plan financially, then sign him.

Jones Average? Not sure about that, he has made some good plays. Off the top of my head, I think he has only given up one TD all season. Remember, safety is another position that seems to get better with experience. This is his first full season as a starter. O ya, I forgot, this is Dolfanland. If you suck in one game, we want to run you out of town.

Put it in perspective.

I think guards are easier to replace than tackles, and I thought I heard there will be a bunch of them this offseason. We need some speed at WR. A TE like Eifert will help in the run and the passing game.

There are options, and mocks are great, but we still have what 7 games to go? Lets not get frusterated over one or two games.


I couldn't agree more in terms of Jones. Hardly average, he is a STUD...one subpar game doesn't change that. He's not Ed Reed. Never will be. Doesn't mean he isn't extremely good.

Speed at the WR position? Yes PLEASE! A TE like Eifert? Even better. I've been calling for Anthony Fasano's head for 2 years now. The change in offensive philosophy only cements that. Fasano is still, rigid and has no explosion.

Nice to see us speaking the same language again Clutch! Very Happy
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Deadeye


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:
There are options, and mocks are great, but we still have what 7 games to go? Lets not get frusterated over one or two games.
Clutch, I'm not the slightest bit frustrated with the teams current performance or record. The record is slightly better than I expected (I predicted 6 or 7 wins), and the peformance has been pretty good in several respects:

- Tannehill has shown some good development but as last Sunday reminded us, he still has a way to go.

- Our run defense is very good, and the defense generally plays above average.

- The running game has been solid at times, but obviously still needs to get better.

- Special teams is playing quite well.

And the team has performed poorly in the following areas, none of which are a usrprise:

- Our WRs and TEs are slow as molasses, and consequently we can't score points in bunches like the Packers, Patriots, or Saints.

- Our guards are not moving well enough to maximize what the scheme is trying to accomplish.

- The secondary still needs a ball hawk.

- Our pass rush still hinges almost exclusively on Wake.

I'm not at all frustrated with the teams performance, the failures were expected and Tannehill is farther along than I had hoped for.

What I am frustrated with is Ireland's inability to locate speed in the skill positions. We have been begging for playmakers since 2010 (Graham, Hernandez, Wallace, Givens, etc...) and no one in the organization seems to know how to find or value them. That is easily the most frustrating thing for me.
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadeye wrote:
Clutch wrote:
There are options, and mocks are great, but we still have what 7 games to go? Lets not get frusterated over one or two games.
Clutch, I'm not the slightest bit frustrated with the teams current performance or record. The record is slightly better than I expected (I predicted 6 or 7 wins), and the peformance has been pretty good in several respects:

- Tannehill has shown some good development but as last Sunday reminded us, he still has a way to go.

- Our run defense is very good, and the defense generally plays above average.

- The running game has been solid at times, but obviously still needs to get better.

- Special teams is playing quite well.

And the team has performed poorly in the following areas, none of which are a usrprise:

- Our WRs and TEs are slow as molasses, and consequently we can't score points in bunches like the Packers, Patriots, or Saints.

- Our guards are not moving well enough to maximize what the scheme is trying to accomplish.

- The secondary still needs a ball hawk.

- Our pass rush still hinges almost exclusively on Wake.

I'm not at all frustrated with the teams performance, the failures were expected and Tannehill is farther along than I had hoped for.

What I am frustrated with is Ireland's inability to locate speed in the skill positions. We have been begging for playmakers since 2010 (Graham, Hernandez, Wallace, Givens, etc...) and no one in the organization seems to know how to find or value them. That is easily the most frustrating thing for me.


If we wanted speed we would've kept and resigned Ted Ginn Jr and not exchanged him for a possession guy like Marshall. When you don't care a lot about speed you wait around until Clyde Gates is the best option, it speaks volumes about what you think and believe about offense. It's not about draft day execution, it's about what your organization as a whole believes works. I'm convinced Sparano was clueless. I'm not sure though that Ireland didn't deliver the goods Sparano ordered. If he can do the same for a guy who knows what he's doing like Philbin...I'm just putting 2 and 2 together. Don't mistake my defending Ireland for anything more than me wanting him to get 1 year with a good coach with a proven system for us to make an accurate decision. That's all I want with Ireland. I'm not asking for 5 more years.

Look at the offense Sparano helped put in place. It wasn't about big numbers and so we considered a 2nd-round QB plenty. That's completely out-of-whack. Think of how bad we'd be if we had Henne under center and Sparano's offense still here! Thanks to Philbin we're talking about how we should have a winning record. I'm thinking if Sparano was still here we'd be talking about how we should've at least won a game by now.

We never drafted a WR higher than Turner & Hartline and both of those guys were possession guys, not speed. It was a different mindset amongst the coaches. Look at how bad the Jets offense is right now and tell me Tony Sparano knows what the hell he's doing. Show me one area of Tony Sparano's offense that looks in order. That O-line's gotten worse. Sanchez is playing noticeably worse. The running game is dried up and the WRs are of course not doing anything.

We definitely need speed but you don't acquire much of it when 75% of your 1st rounders weigh over 300 pounds. Wink I lay that on the beliefs that Parcells brought in that I know Sparano and his coaches supported. I'm willing to accept Ireland for at least another year though to see if he can combine with Philbin to bring in the talent this new offense needs.

We definitely lack speed thanks to 4 years of bad philosophy and bad drafts prior to that. There's no question about it. We're solid in many areas which is at least better than where we were at when Cameron was fired. At least now, we've moved past where seemingly every player is a liability on offense and defense.




Now, assuming we throw out the Titans game as a complete atrocity and a complete failure in all 3 phases and by virtually every player we still have to look at our O-line as inept, our running game as having only worked against 2 early opponents (Houston & Oakland) and our receivers as a notch above depleted.

I said prior that Pouncey and Tannehill are the only offensive players having a relatively good year. No one else is. Bush is not. Long is not. Martin is not. Guards are not. WRs are not. TEs are not.

You have to be honest and say that if you were viewing this team from the outside you'd see 2 guys on offense that seem to be reliably winning: the QB and the C. Everything else is average. Guards are a liability. Long's not going to be worth his price which makes us damned if we do/don't. Bush is unreliable. Martin needs to get better and this is all after our primary need was supposedly acquiring better receivers.

The sky's not falling, no, and it's true we expected this year to be rough so I'm not surprised that things have turned a little turbulent. I'm not throwing in the towel but I'm not going to be a homer when it comes to contracts. I'm not going to push for contracts based on projections and potential.


**Sean Smith is average in his 4th season. He should get average money. He hasn't earned any more than that.

**One of our 3 DTs has to go (Soliai, Starks, Odrick).

**We should not feel entitled to pay Hartline for the game he had in Arizona. Hartline is mediocre. Sign his at a reasonable price.

**We should not feel entitled to pay Bush for his game against Oakland. Sign him too at a reasonable price unless Miller is ready to take over. If Miller's ready, we should probably let Reggie go to be perfectly honest.


Last edited by phinmun on Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dolphan9954 wrote:
phinmun wrote:
Odrick's a young, 1st round talent that still isn't fully developed. There's no reason to give someone else an asset like that when we'd only get a 4th or 5th round pick.[/b] Finally, Starks is a veteran but he's the most complete DT we have.


This is the argument to keep Sean Smith, he wasn't a first round pick but still was a second.





Odrick was drafted in 2010 (didn't play due to a foot injury), started his "rookie campaign" in 2011 and is starting his 2nd full season this year as a flexible player who can operate as a DT or DE. He's played competently and he's been versatile. He's also only played in something like 18 games.

Trading away a 1st round pick for a 4/5th round pick when he has only played 1 full season and done an appreciable job does not seem overly sensible.

Smith was drafted (and played his rookie season) in 2009. That makes this his 4th full season as a Dolphin. He's had time to develop as a player and the question is whether we re-sign him based on his production and his cost. We can much more accurately project where Sean Smith will be in 2-to-3 years. He'll be very near what he is now, probably slightly improved.

Not offering Sean Smith more money than he's worth and letting someone else do it instead seems like it's worth at least considering.

There's quite an enormous difference between the 2 if you ask me.

We'll have the same conversation about Odrick when he's a FA I'm sure.
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Clutch


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

phinmun wrote:
Deadeye wrote:
Clutch wrote:
There are options, and mocks are great, but we still have what 7 games to go? Lets not get frusterated over one or two games.
Clutch, I'm not the slightest bit frustrated with the teams current performance or record. The record is slightly better than I expected (I predicted 6 or 7 wins), and the peformance has been pretty good in several respects:

- Tannehill has shown some good development but as last Sunday reminded us, he still has a way to go.

- Our run defense is very good, and the defense generally plays above average.

- The running game has been solid at times, but obviously still needs to get better.

- Special teams is playing quite well.

And the team has performed poorly in the following areas, none of which are a usrprise:

- Our WRs and TEs are slow as molasses, and consequently we can't score points in bunches like the Packers, Patriots, or Saints.

- Our guards are not moving well enough to maximize what the scheme is trying to accomplish.

- The secondary still needs a ball hawk.

- Our pass rush still hinges almost exclusively on Wake.

I'm not at all frustrated with the teams performance, the failures were expected and Tannehill is farther along than I had hoped for.

What I am frustrated with is Ireland's inability to locate speed in the skill positions. We have been begging for playmakers since 2010 (Graham, Hernandez, Wallace, Givens, etc...) and no one in the organization seems to know how to find or value them. That is easily the most frustrating thing for me.


If we wanted speed we would've kept and resigned Ted Ginn Jr and not exchanged him for a possession guy like Marshall. When you don't care a lot about speed you wait around until Clyde Gates is the best option, it speaks volumes about what you think and believe about offense. It's not about draft day execution, it's about what your organization as a whole believes works. I'm convinced Sparano was clueless. I'm not sure though that Ireland didn't deliver the goods Sparano ordered. If he can do the same for a guy who knows what he's doing like Philbin...I'm just putting 2 and 2 together. Don't mistake my defending Ireland for anything more than me wanting him to get 1 year with a good coach with a proven system for us to make an accurate decision. That's all I want with Ireland. I'm not asking for 5 more years.

Look at the offense Sparano helped put in place. It wasn't about big numbers and so we considered a 2nd-round QB plenty. That's completely out-of-whack. Think of how bad we'd be if we had Henne under center and Sparano's offense still here! Thanks to Philbin we're talking about how we should have a winning record. I'm thinking if Sparano was still here we'd be talking about how we should've at least won a game by now.

We never drafted a WR higher than Turner & Hartline and both of those guys were possession guys, not speed. It was a different mindset amongst the coaches. Look at how bad the Jets offense is right now and tell me Tony Sparano knows what the hell he's doing. Show me one area of Tony Sparano's offense that looks in order. That O-line's gotten worse. Sanchez is playing noticeably worse. The running game is dried up and the WRs are of course not doing anything.

We definitely need speed but you don't acquire much of it when 75% of your 1st rounders weigh over 300 pounds. Wink I lay that on the beliefs that Parcells brought in that I know Sparano and his coaches supported. I'm willing to accept Ireland for at least another year though to see if he can combine with Philbin to bring in the talent this new offense needs.

We definitely lack speed thanks to 4 years of bad philosophy and bad drafts prior to that. There's no question about it. We're solid in many areas which is at least better than where we were at when Cameron was fired. At least now, we've moved past where seemingly every player is a liability on offense and defense.




Now, assuming we throw out the Titans game as a complete atrocity and a complete failure in all 3 phases and by virtually every player we still have to look at our O-line as inept, our running game as having only worked against 2 early opponents (Houston & Oakland) and our receivers as a notch above depleted.

I said prior that Pouncey and Tannehill are the only offensive players having a relatively good year. No one else is. Bush is not. Long is not. Martin is not. Guards are not. WRs are not. TEs are not.

You have to be honest and say that if you were viewing this team from the outside you'd see 2 guys on offense that seem to be reliably winning: the QB and the C. Everything else is average. Guards are a liability. Long's not going to be worth his price which makes us damned if we do/don't. Bush is unreliable. Martin needs to get better and this is all after our primary need was supposedly acquiring better receivers.

The sky's not falling, no, and it's true we expected this year to be rough so I'm not surprised that things have turned a little turbulent. I'm not throwing in the towel but I'm not going to be a homer when it comes to contracts. I'm not going to push for contracts based on projections and potential.


**Sean Smith is average in his 4th season. He should get average money. He hasn't earned any more than that.

**One of our 3 DTs has to go (Soliai, Starks, Odrick).

**We should not feel entitled to pay Hartline for the game he had in Arizona. Hartline is mediocre. Sign his at a reasonable price.

**We should not feel entitled to pay Bush for his game against Oakland. Sign him too at a reasonable price unless Miller is ready to take over. If Miller's ready, we should probably let Reggie go to be perfectly honest.


Pouncey sure. But Tannehill? I am not sure I want to say he is having a good, or even average, season. Last I checked there are only about 4 qb's below him. Thats not average. Now I know he is a rookie and he only has about 30 starts between college and the pros but lets call a spade a spade here. he has 5 td passes all season. Thats not good, not even average. But we have our faves and we all wanna believe in something at the QB position.

This is what bugs me. We seem to take the players who are making the money, or are seeking the big money, and disect every little play. We match them up with the greats at the position. And when they play poorly in a game or two, we want to toss them to the heap. Not a good way to build a great foundation.

Until someone comes along and beats a player out, I don't want to get rid of him. Don't cut Jake or Sean or Starks unless you have a plan in place. You only get better by getting better players or coaching the ones you have to be better. You don't get better by tossing players aside because you didn't like a performance. If Murtha beats Jake out, then let Jake walk. If Carrol and Wilson beat Smith out and he wants #1 money, then let him walk.

But to continue to watch talent leave the fins because of a couple of poor performances only makes us look back and see the Welker/Jason Allen/G from Houston (Wade Smith?) excel and we get pissed at Ireland or whomever the GM was. Part of the blame is on the fans. No patience what so ever.

Have I seen enough of Incognito, yes. Jerry, yes. Those two have never flashed anything to me that has potential. So bringing someone else in can't be worse than what we have.

I have seen Carpenter be an elite kicker, Jake be a 4 time pro bowler, Smith be a solid CB. These are what you build around. Running them off isn't helping this team. And it sends a bad message to current and FA players. If you mess up a couple of times, you are gone. I can tell you I wouldn't be taking my talents to South Beach if that were the culture.

As you were......
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Mercury22


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oops, wrong thread. Sorry.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tj mcdonald more then likely will not get drafted in the first 2 rounds is why maybe you have not seen him in some mocks. He has been beyond terrible this year. If some of you are looking for speed rushers look at dion jordan,damontre moore and ziggy ansah they will all be 1st rounders except maybe ziggy. they all excel at creating problems with there elite athletic ability especially jordan
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phinmun


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clutch wrote:


Pouncey sure. But Tannehill? I am not sure I want to say he is having a good, or even average, season. Last I checked there are only about 4 qb's below him. Thats not average. Now I know he is a rookie and he only has about 30 starts between college and the pros but lets call a spade a spade here. he has 5 td passes all season. Thats not good, not even average. But we have our faves and we all wanna believe in something at the QB position.

This is what bugs me. We seem to take the players who are making the money, or are seeking the big money, and disect every little play. We match them up with the greats at the position. And when they play poorly in a game or two, we want to toss them to the heap. Not a good way to build a great foundation.

Until someone comes along and beats a player out, I don't want to get rid of him. Don't cut Jake or Sean or Starks unless you have a plan in place. You only get better by getting better players or coaching the ones you have to be better. You don't get better by tossing players aside because you didn't like a performance. If Murtha beats Jake out, then let Jake walk. If Carrol and Wilson beat Smith out and he wants #1 money, then let him walk.

But to continue to watch talent leave the fins because of a couple of poor performances only makes us look back and see the Welker/Jason Allen/G from Houston (Wade Smith?) excel and we get pissed at Ireland or whomever the GM was. Part of the blame is on the fans. No patience what so ever.

Have I seen enough of Incognito, yes. Jerry, yes. Those two have never flashed anything to me that has potential. So bringing someone else in can't be worse than what we have.

I have seen Carpenter be an elite kicker, Jake be a 4 time pro bowler, Smith be a solid CB. These are what you build around. Running them off isn't helping this team. And it sends a bad message to current and FA players. If you mess up a couple of times, you are gone. I can tell you I wouldn't be taking my talents to South Beach if that were the culture.

As you were......


Fair points, but with a guy like Long or Smith we have to make a decision for the next 5 years--for US, not them. Do you want to have Long/Smith be our primary guy for 5 years (probably overpaying each and every year)? I would prefer to say, "well, this is our offer. Take it or leave it Jake/Sean. You're a good guy...smart and a team player. We like you, but what you've produced leads us to offer ____. Produce more and we'll consider restructuring or renegotiating in 3 or 4 years."

We have to make a long-term commitment to these guys or let them go. We're not cutting them, their contracts are up and we're faced with 2 painful options, it's different. There are no great choices, only smart decisions here and locking ourselves into big money and average production doesn't seem to be the smart decision.

You want to hold onto solid guys (I know), but I'm concerned about paying top-dollar for guys who are pretty much average. Starks ain't that great. Smith ain't that great. Hartline ain't that great. Long's not been great recently. It's high time we all say these things out loud.
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Russ57


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Flip side of the coin...and one I don't think you are going due consideration to.....is are there other options in FA that are greater and cheaper?

It is easy to say a given player, like Sean Smith isn't worth his asking price, but facts are his worth is determined by the market and logic ditactes any cheaper option won't be as good. Ditto on any other player from starks to fasano.

Face it, some of these players are going to have to be extended even if there aren't who we want to have for the future.
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