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Kiei7


Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 905
Location: CA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.


JPP overcame that and put up an elite season. Tebow did not and is not capable. That's the difference. That's why your comparison sucks.


Nope. JPP put up an elite season despite his lack of mechanics. He has still yet to overcome it according his own words, and Tucks. But obviously you must know better.

And Tebow turned around a sinking team and led them to the playoffs. Difference is the Giants were committed to JPP, the Broncos used Tebow to spark their offense and then decided to move on to a future HOF'er.

To say my comparison sucks is willingly ignoring the similarities between the two when drafted and focusing on the two in the present.


You're misunderstanding. I did not say he practiced really hard and improved his mechanical deficiencies. That's not what overcome means. Commitment has nothing to do with their success. Tebow is an awful QB. He cannot overcome his deficiencies. He just isn't good enough.
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mse326 wrote:
Fired-Up wrote:

Yes, but he won the super bowl.

Seriously I've never seen anyone as wrong as you all the time. The fact that you have knocked Skip Bayless off that perch has brought great shame upon this website.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

It's becoming quite funny at this point how mad you get when someone disagrees with your opinion. If you know everything about the NFL and the players, why don't you go be analyst?


Says the guy who's every arguing point I've debunked time and again. Still think that Bronco defense is "elite"? Laughing

Perhaps your projecting your frustration of not being able to put together a solid argument on me. As I remember I'm not the one calling people morons. But I digress. I accept your resignation from the debate. Have a good one.


Last year, yes they were.

This year, yes, they still are.
http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?team=DEN

Ranked no less than 11th in any defensive category and they rank 6th in yards allowed per game.

Last year, you mention that their defense wasn't elite, and in their losses, sure, they weren't, but how many of those losses were because Tim Tebow and the offense led the league in 3-and-outs and put the defense on the field the entire game? How many of those losses were because Tim Tebow and the offense turned the ball over? But nonetheless, how about the games they won, eh? Surely it was all Tebow and the offense scoring points and putting teams away, right? Wrong. It was the defense keeping them in games and forcing crucial turnovers to give the offense the chance to fluke their way to victory or to a GW FG from Matt Prater. Don't believe me? Here's the final scores of the games they won last year:

http://www.fbschedules.com/nfl-11/2011-denver-broncos-football-schedule.php

Allowed 22 points to CIN.
Allowed 15 points to MIA.
Allowed 24 against OAK.
Allowed 10 against KC.
Allowed 13 against NYJ.
Allowed 13 against SD.
Allowed 32 against MIN (the only outlier in the group, and ironically the only game Tebow actually played well as a passer...imagine that!)
Allowed 10 against CHI.
Allowed 23 against PIT.

So that's 9 wins for them last year, an average of 18.0 points per game and if you take away the MIN game, that's an average of 16.25 over 8 games. Still don't think they're elite? Also not to mention that in 3 of their losses, the defense surrendered less than 30 points (Oakland, 23, SD, 29, KC, 7). Still don't think they're elite? Would you like me to also point out that 4 of their wins were in overtime, and won on FIELD GOALS from Matt Prater? Do you know what that implies? It implies 2 things:

a) The other got the ball and the defense held them to nothing, then DEN went and kicked a FG and won.

b) Denver went down, kicked a FG and the defense held the other team to nothing.

What do those 2 scenarios have in common? Here, I'll highlight them for you...Wait a sec...Okay there you go. Hmm, the defense stepped up? Imagine that!

Still don't think they're elite? Then I feel sorry for you.
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Shockey1979


Joined: 02 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

Still don't think they're elite? Then I feel sorry for you.


Just stop. Seriously this is becoming laughable. What they are this season means nothing in regards to what they were when Tebow led the turnaround in 2011. You're letting your biased against Tebow coerce you into anointing the 24th over defense in yards and points per game as elite. This is just silliness.
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 29918
Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

Still don't think they're elite? Then I feel sorry for you.


Just stop. Seriously this is becoming laughable. What they are this season means nothing in regards to what they were when Tebow led the turnaround in 2011. You're letting your biased against Tebow coerce you into anointing the 24th over defense in yards and points per game as elite. This is just silliness.


And yet even after I just showed you that in every single win (except one), they were exact defintion of elite AND clutch, and you still are ignoring that fact?

Okay, well then...who's letting bias get in the way, again?
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 49678
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

It's becoming quite funny at this point how mad you get when someone disagrees with your opinion. If you know everything about the NFL and the players, why don't you go be analyst?


Says the guy who's every arguing point I've debunked time and again. Still think that Bronco defense is "elite"? Laughing

Perhaps your projecting your frustration of not being able to put together a solid argument on me. As I remember I'm not the one calling people morons. But I digress. I accept your resignation from the debate. Have a good one.


Last year, yes they were.

This year, yes, they still are.
http://www.nfl.com/teams/statistics?team=DEN

Ranked no less than 11th in any defensive category and they rank 6th in yards allowed per game.

Last year, you mention that their defense wasn't elite, and in their losses, sure, they weren't, but how many of those losses were because Tim Tebow and the offense led the league in 3-and-outs and put the defense on the field the entire game? How many of those losses were because Tim Tebow and the offense turned the ball over? But nonetheless, how about the games they won, eh? Surely it was all Tebow and the offense scoring points and putting teams away, right? Wrong. It was the defense keeping them in games and forcing crucial turnovers to give the offense the chance to fluke their way to victory or to a GW FG from Matt Prater. Don't believe me? Here's the final scores of the games they won last year:

http://www.fbschedules.com/nfl-11/2011-denver-broncos-football-schedule.php

Allowed 22 points to CIN.
Allowed 15 points to MIA.
Allowed 24 against OAK.
Allowed 10 against KC.
Allowed 13 against NYJ.
Allowed 13 against SD.
Allowed 32 against MIN (the only outlier in the group, and ironically the only game Tebow actually played well as a passer...imagine that!)
Allowed 10 against CHI.
Allowed 23 against PIT.

So that's 9 wins for them last year, an average of 18.0 points per game and if you take away the MIN game, that's an average of 16.25 over 8 games. Still don't think they're elite? Also not to mention that in 3 of their losses, the defense surrendered less than 30 points (Oakland, 23, SD, 29, KC, 7). Still don't think they're elite? Would you like me to also point out that 4 of their wins were in overtime, and won on FIELD GOALS from Matt Prater? Do you know what that implies? It implies 2 things:

a) The other got the ball and the defense held them to nothing, then DEN went and kicked a FG and won.

b) Denver went down, kicked a FG and the defense held the other team to nothing.

What do those 2 scenarios have in common? Here, I'll highlight them for you...Wait a sec...Okay there you go. Hmm, the defense stepped up? Imagine that!

Still don't think they're elite? Then I feel sorry for you.


You can feel sorry for him but he's right, they weren't elite. Not close to elite.

Quote:
Also not to mention that in 3 of their losses, the defense surrendered less than 30 points (Oakland, 23, SD, 29, KC, 7). Still don't think they're elite? Would you like me to also point out that 4 of their wins were in overtime, and won on FIELD GOALS from Matt Prater? Do you know what that implies? It implies 2 things:

a) The other got the ball and the defense held them to nothing, then DEN went and kicked a FG and won.

b) Denver went down, kicked a FG and the defense held the other team to nothing.


Is 30 points supposed to be an impressive earmark? 30 points is horrible.

And I'm pretty sure you're wrong on the OT bit. That rule change didn't happen until this year. Last year, it only existed in the playoffs.
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But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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SnA ExclusiVe


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
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Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since when is allowing 18 points in all of your victories considered not elite? Confused

Hmm, I thought the rule change happened last year. If not, my mistake on that bit.

I still hold that Denver's defense, although not elite for the entire season, was 89% of the reason they made the playoffs last year and the reason they won several of those games in the regular season.
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Keleth


Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 2912
Location: Restaurant at the end of the universe
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
First of all, I've seen plenty of skilled position players who can pass just as well as Tebow can. Golden Tate, Brad Smith, etc...Tebow is nothing special at all he's a FB who's spent his entire life trying to pass and still can't. That's not a physical specimen. If you want a physical specimen look at a guy like AJ Green, Brent Grimes, Julio Jones, etc...Guys who have EXTREME athleticism for their size and stature. Heck, even Haloti Ngata or Joe Staley. Not Tim Tebow.


For his position he is a physical specimen.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

Lastly, I'm still never sure why people thin Kyle Orton was garbage in Denver. The guy had a near record-setting season in 2009 or whatever and the defense was giving up astronomical amounts of points. Then they stopped having faith in Orton, changed the system and coach and brought in Tebow and he went back to sucking.


I thought they changed their system when they started Tebow not when Orton was playing ?
Plus I'm sure many Broncos fans would disagree with you about Orton but I didn't watch the Donkeys so can't comment there.

Tebow has had his time in the NFL as a starting QB.Last year he took many teams by surprise as no one knew what to expect.He will never be an NFL QB until he learns how to actually throw the ball.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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Location: Spokane, WA
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keleth wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
First of all, I've seen plenty of skilled position players who can pass just as well as Tebow can. Golden Tate, Brad Smith, etc...Tebow is nothing special at all he's a FB who's spent his entire life trying to pass and still can't. That's not a physical specimen. If you want a physical specimen look at a guy like AJ Green, Brent Grimes, Julio Jones, etc...Guys who have EXTREME athleticism for their size and stature. Heck, even Haloti Ngata or Joe Staley. Not Tim Tebow.


For his position he is a physical specimen.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

Lastly, I'm still never sure why people thin Kyle Orton was garbage in Denver. The guy had a near record-setting season in 2009 or whatever and the defense was giving up astronomical amounts of points. Then they stopped having faith in Orton, changed the system and coach and brought in Tebow and he went back to sucking.


I thought they changed their system when they started Tebow not when Orton was playing ?
Plus I'm sure many Broncos fans would disagree with you about Orton but I didn't watch the Donkeys so can't comment there.

Tebow has had his time in the NFL as a starting QB.Last year he took many teams by surprise as no one knew what to expect.He will never be an NFL QB until he learns how to actually throw the ball.


I don't see him as a physical specimen at all. A physical specimen at the QB position to me is RGIII or Michael Vick - guys who can throw and pass with their athleticism. Tebow isn't that athletic, he's just built.

IIRC, they had the one year where McD called the offense and it was explosive and Orton was on pace to break several NFL records, and then the season after that they changed the system or something. But that's if my memory serves me correct. Either way, Orton was throwing the ball all over the place with precision in 2009 or whatever season that was, and I witnessed it first-hand watching him tear apart the Ravens' then-ranked #1 passing defense.
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Tooki


Joined: 28 Apr 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. Tebow is far from a QB specimen. RGIII is the freak specimen, and Andrew Luck is closer to the complete package at QB.

Tebow is a RB with his ability to rally the team as his best asset.
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jrry32


Joined: 04 Jan 2011
Posts: 49678
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:


I don't see him as a physical specimen at all. A physical specimen at the QB position to me is RGIII or Michael Vick - guys who can throw and pass with their athleticism. Tebow isn't that athletic, he's just built.

IIRC, they had the one year where McD called the offense and it was explosive and Orton was on pace to break several NFL records, and then the season after that they changed the system or something. But that's if my memory serves me correct. Either way, Orton was throwing the ball all over the place with precision in 2009 or whatever season that was, and I witnessed it first-hand watching him tear apart the Ravens' then-ranked #1 passing defense.


Tebow is a physical specimen, you're just sounding more and more desperate.

Tebow is built like a TE with great burst, agility and power with good arm strength.
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The LBC wrote:
Harper41 wrote:
Don't worry. Sean Payton would pass the ball in a Tornado.

But would he do it in a Sharknado?
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AmerigoCorleone


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:


Tebow is a physical specimen, you're just sounding more and more desperate.

Tebow is built like a TE with great burst, agility and power with good arm strength.


Tim Tebow is not a physical specimen. There are countless players that are more athletic at his position.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrry32 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:


I don't see him as a physical specimen at all. A physical specimen at the QB position to me is RGIII or Michael Vick - guys who can throw and pass with their athleticism. Tebow isn't that athletic, he's just built.

IIRC, they had the one year where McD called the offense and it was explosive and Orton was on pace to break several NFL records, and then the season after that they changed the system or something. But that's if my memory serves me correct. Either way, Orton was throwing the ball all over the place with precision in 2009 or whatever season that was, and I witnessed it first-hand watching him tear apart the Ravens' then-ranked #1 passing defense.


Tebow is a physical specimen, you're just sounding more and more desperate.

Tebow is built like a TE with great burst, agility and power with good arm strength.


Uhhh, if Tebow has a great burst, great agility with good arm strength, what do you call Michael Vick?

And if you call Michael Vick a physical specimen, your argument falls to shreds...
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Jetsman82


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AmerigoCorleone wrote:
jrry32 wrote:


Tebow is a physical specimen, you're just sounding more and more desperate.

Tebow is built like a TE with great burst, agility and power with good arm strength.


Tim Tebow is not a physical specimen. There are countless players that are more athletic at his position.

Countless? There's probably no more than you can count on one hand. Unless you have some freaky hands...
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AmerigoCorleone


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jetsman82 wrote:
AmerigoCorleone wrote:
jrry32 wrote:


Tebow is a physical specimen, you're just sounding more and more desperate.

Tebow is built like a TE with great burst, agility and power with good arm strength.


Tim Tebow is not a physical specimen. There are countless players that are more athletic at his position.

Countless? There's probably no more than you can count on one hand. Unless you have some freaky hands...


There's more than 5 if you can prove that intelligence is tangible.
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MileHighNuck


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sanchez leads the league in red zone turnovers, Tebow led the league in red zone conversions.......

Lots of talk about the Jets being too void of talent to compete with any QB, that's complete BS. The Jets Roster is more than capable of earning a respectable record and fighting for a wildcard spot.

Hard to ignore the similarities between Denver of last year and the current Jets team. If NY loses it's next 2 games (Rams + Pats) then I would give the nod to Tebow. He had lots of success last year with a Broncos team that was just as bad and in some areas worse than the Jets now.

Jets have 2 championship appearances and a 500 season recently, compared to Denvers 6 year playoff drought. Denver's previous 4 seasons combined for the worst record in the league, the last year they finised 31st overall with the dead last ranked defence.

Jets weapons are similar too, Hill looks exactly like Thomas did last year. Big, fast guy that can create mismatches all over the field but very raw. Lots of potential but suffers the butterfingers and continuously drops routine accurate passes. I don't know how many times i yelled at the TV while Thomas would let a would be game winning TD slip through his hands.

Kerley>= Decker, Deck isn't particularly good at anything, very average and dropped a ton of easy passes killing drives last year. Kerley looks pretty good so far.

Mcgahee is better than any Jets RB, but he was always fighting nagging injuries and is painfully fumble prone. Tebow was relied on to run all game long vs the Chiefs when both their RB's were hurt and they pulled it off. A healthy Mcknight, Greene and TT would suffice.

Jets have already won 3 games this year, yet they get treated like they're the Chiefs. You have to go back nearly 2 full seasons to get more than 3 wins from the Orton led Broncos.

The Jets have hung with the Texans and Pats, this is something even the current Broncos team can't say. It's not reasonable to give up now, there is plenty of time left in the season.

Denver showed lots of heart and a refusal to lose last year, it caught the attention of lots of FA's and now they're poised to make a SB run with Manning. Tanking will lose a team as much talent from players going elsewhere as it will gain them with prime draft picks. Nobody wants to play for a team with a loser mentality. Winning is what the Jets need, it will cure everything and if Sanchez can't bring it then it's time for plan B.
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