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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Tebow to me is the JPP of offense. Completely gifted physical specimen who lacks all the mechanical tools to play the position. They play with pure physicality. JPP himself has said at times he doesn't have a clue what he's doing out there. But his physical prowess allows him to have success. Tebow is the same way. His ability to improvise, escape, and create a big play is unprecedented. Yet nobody rips JPP for his lack of mechanics.


You just compared a backup QB to an All-Pro defensive end...

I don't even know what to say to this!


Start by saying what in my quoted comment above is false.
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Kiei7


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.
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mse326 wrote:
Fired-Up wrote:

Yes, but he won the super bowl.

Seriously I've never seen anyone as wrong as you all the time. The fact that you have knocked Skip Bayless off that perch has brought great shame upon this website.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
SnA ExclusiVe wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Tebow to me is the JPP of offense. Completely gifted physical specimen who lacks all the mechanical tools to play the position. They play with pure physicality. JPP himself has said at times he doesn't have a clue what he's doing out there. But his physical prowess allows him to have success. Tebow is the same way. His ability to improvise, escape, and create a big play is unprecedented. Yet nobody rips JPP for his lack of mechanics.


You just compared a backup QB to an All-Pro defensive end...

I don't even know what to say to this!


Start by saying what in my quoted comment above is false.


1.) Tebow is not a physical specimen. He's a FB playing QB. That's like saying Richard Sherman is a physical specimen as well. No, he's just a WR playing DB, except Sherman is actually good, and Tebow sucks.

2.) JPP does not lack mechanical tools to play the position. If he did, he wouldn't be A) starting B) good C) All-Pro D) A matchup-nightmare.

3.) What allows Tebow to have success is the teammates around him keeping the game close for Tebow while he fails to complete 4/10 passes a game. JPP's success is NOTHING like the "success" that Teow had.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.


So are tons of other DE's, such as Jason Babin, Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, etc. etc. etc.
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BlaqOptic wrote:
I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

1.) Tebow is not a physical specimen. He's a FB playing QB. That's like saying Richard Sherman is a physical specimen as well. No, he's just a WR playing DB, except Sherman is actually good, and Tebow sucks.


Asinine. How many QB's in the league could also play RB or FB like Tebow....very few. To try and use that as a derogatory point is silly. His rugged build, size, and speed that would allow him to be a FB or RB is unprecedented in the QB position. Hence why I said in their "respective positions" they are both physical specimens. Fail.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

2.) JPP does not lack mechanical tools to play the position. If he did, he wouldn't be A) starting B) good C) All-Pro D) A matchup-nightmare.


JPP played one year of starting college football. He was drafted by the Giants knowing full well he lacked the physical mechanics of the position. He is not even close to mechanically sound according to himself and Tuck who has to instruct him daily. He has success on the field by using his physicality to his advantage. He's getting better but he is not even close to sound at the position. Fail

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

3.) What allows Tebow to have success is the teammates around him keeping the game close for Tebow while he fails to complete 4/10 passes a game. JPP's success is NOTHING like the "success" that Teow had.


Interesting those other teammates on the Broncos last year sure weren't winning games with a mechanically sound QB behind center. It doesn't matter if he completes 4/10 or 8/10. If one of those 4 are a big play then it's more valuable then a dinking and dunking QB completing a high percentage of passes but not changing field position. And what he lacks in that 4/10 he can make up with his threat on the ground unlike an immobile pocket passing QB such as Orton. Fail.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I've seen plenty of skilled position players who can pass just as well as Tebow can. Golden Tate, Brad Smith, etc...Tebow is nothing special at all he's a FB who's spent his entire life trying to pass and still can't. That's not a physical specimen. If you want a physical specimen look at a guy like AJ Green, Brent Grimes, Julio Jones, etc...Guys who have EXTREME athleticism for their size and stature. Heck, even Haloti Ngata or Joe Staley. Not Tim Tebow.

Antonio Gates played basketball in college, and look at how that translated to the NFL...And he's had success because of his athleticism and also his flat out TALENT, something Tebow doesn't have when it comes to playing QB.

Lastly, I'm still never sure why people thin Kyle Orton was garbage in Denver. The guy had a near record-setting season in 2009 or whatever and the defense was giving up astronomical amounts of points. Then they stopped having faith in Orton, changed the system and coach and brought in Tebow and he went back to sucking. Tebow is great in the clutch, yes, I'll give him that, but when you put him into passing situations (like a QB faces regularly), he's not going to succeed more often than not.

And stop saying fail, you sound like a moron when you say that after every sentence.

So if you want to compare Tebow to anyone, compare him to someone who's size and build doesn't fit their position, has terrible mechanics, actually sucks and is good in the clutch. Not JPP. Not someone who IS a physical specimen (extremely athletically gifted). Not someone who is an All-Pro in this league and is having extreme personal success.
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I'd say he's [Dennis Pitta] the fourth best TE in the division... Cameron > Miller > Gresham > Eiffert = Pitta
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off I didn't COMPARE Tebow to JPP. I didn't compare their physicality, nor did I say Tebow is more physically gifted. You were the run that ran with that BS and tried to make a point. In no way am I saying Tebow is more physically gifted. So let's just put that to bed.

What I said was Tebow is the JPP of offense. Despite how much your trying to skew facts about JPP to try and twist this around he is not mechanically sound. It was the absolute knock on him when he was drafted. Maybe your instituting some sort of selective memory here, but the Giants caught a whole brickload of criticism for the JPP pick. Experts all stated he wasn't NFL ready. He was a great physical specimen at his position but he lacked the mechanical disciple of the position. The Giants saw that physically prowess and decided to commit to him, teach him the mechanics, and deal with the learning curve.

Tebow has not been given that chance. Denver changed their offense last year to compliment his physicality and it resulted in a playoff berth. Had Elway decided to build around Tebow he could have brought in the talent to match that scheme and had a successful offense. He decided he wanted a more tradition QB and didn't want to blow up the preset pieces he had in place. And that's understandable. When you have a glorifed RB who can pass as your QB and you commit to him you have to build your offense around him. Because that is so unprecedented at the QB position teams would have to completely rebuild their offenses to compliment TT and chose not too. Which again is understandable. However if a team did decide to commit to him and let him go through the learning curve it would be no different then what the Giants did with JPP.

If you don't want to hear me say fail then stop throwing out obtuse, inaccurate, arguing points, spinning my words, and trying to mask your hatred for TT.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
First off I didn't COMPARE Tebow to JPP. I didn't compare their physicality, nor did I say Tebow is more physically gifted. You were the run that ran with that BS and tried to make a point. In no way am I saying Tebow is more physically gifted. So let's just put that to bed.

What I said was Tebow is the JPP of offense. Despite how much your trying to skew facts about JPP to try and twist this around he is not mechanically sound. It was the absolute knock on him when he was drafted. Maybe your instituting some sort of selective memory here, but the Giants caught a whole brickload of criticism for the JPP pick. Experts all stated he wasn't NFL ready. He was a great physical specimen at his position but he lacked the mechanical disciple of the position. The Giants saw that physically prowess and decided to commit to him, teach him the mechanics, and deal with the learning curve.

Tebow has not been given that chance. Denver changed their offense last year to compliment his physicality and it resulted in a playoff berth. Had Elway decided to build around Tebow he could have brought in the talent to match that scheme and had a successful offense. He decided he wanted a more tradition QB and didn't want to blow up the preset pieces he had in place. And that's understandable. When you have a glorifed RB who can pass as your QB and you commit to him you have to build your offense around him. Because that is so unprecedented at the QB position teams would have to completely rebuild their offenses to compliment TT and chose not too. Which again is understandable. However if a team did decide to commit to him and let him go through the learning curve it would be no different then what the Giants did with JPP.

If you don't want to hear me say fail then stop throwing out obtuse, inaccurate, arguing points, spinning my words, and trying to mask your hatred for TT.


When you say "Tebow is the JPP of offense", you are directly comparing the two.

I don't care how bad JPP's mechanics are, that isn't how success is measured in this league. The fact remains he's an All-Pro DE who's been borderline dominant in his short NFL career thus far. Tebow, on the other hand is a backup QB with a 30% completion percentage. All mechanical issues aside, there is NO comparing Tebow and JPP. Period. If you want to compare Tebow, compare him with Philip Rivers, since Rivers is a QB which mechanical issues, do NOT compare him with a defensive end.

And your understanding of why the Broncos made the playoffs is completely skewed, imo. They didn't make the playoffs because they changed their offense. Yes, it was a factor, a small factor, but they made the playoffs because their defense played at an elite level all year and held teams within 20 points for most of their games so that Tebow and the offense could fall on their faces for 3 quarters and then spring to life in the 4th quarter and fluke their way to a game winning FG. The defense is why they made the playoffs, along with clutch kicking and a few flukey efforts on Tebow's part to go along with several "LOL" moments from opposing defenses.

However, I also think you're strongly misguided when you think that the type of offense ran in Denver can be a "successful" offense, esecially with a QB who can't throw. Belichick made it look easy destroying that offense last year in the playoffs, and so did several other teams. This is a copy cat league, so there's absolutely no way to tell that he could've ran that offense and been successful this year.

Finally, I'm not masking my hatred for TT, I'm making it very obvious I'm not a fan of his. He's not a good QB. He shouldn't be viewed as one, and there's no way in heck that any NFL team should bench their starting QB for him. He's a situational QB at best, and that's how I and thousands, probably millions of other people view that.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

When you say "Tebow is the JPP of offense", you are directly comparing the two.


Again I'm talking about the situations not a direct comparison of the two players. But go ahead and keep on running with it to try and create a debating point.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

I don't care how bad JPP's mechanics are, that isn't how success is measured in this league. The fact remains he's an All-Pro DE who's been borderline dominant in his short NFL career thus far. Tebow, on the other hand is a backup QB with a 30% completion percentage. All mechanical issues aside, there is NO comparing Tebow and JPP. Period. If you want to compare Tebow, compare him with Philip Rivers, since Rivers is a QB which mechanical issues, do NOT compare him with a defensive end.


Oh I didn't realize you were the governing body here. My fault for not consulting his highness prior to making my comparison. Please don't flog me.

Look... you can try and spin this all you want. The fact is their situations are completely comparable. What JPP represents is a raw talent, highly gifted physical player who lacked any sort of mechanical soundness at his position when he was drafted. Tebow is the same thing. The difference between the two is JPP has been committed to by his team. All your arguing points debunking this such as "JPP is an All Pro" are moot since they are direct results of said team being committed to him and allowing his physical prowess to flourish on the field. Something Tebow hasn't been given. So go ahead and keep spinning this 100 different ways to fuel your futile argument and I will keep typing the real reason why I made the comparison that you obviously cannot dispute.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

And your understanding of why the Broncos made the playoffs is completely skewed, imo. They didn't make the playoffs because they changed their offense. Yes, it was a factor, a small factor, but they made the playoffs because their defense played at an elite level all year and held teams within 20 points for most of their games so that Tebow and the offense could fall on their faces for 3 quarters and then spring to life in the 4th quarter and fluke their way to a game winning FG. The defense is why they made the playoffs, along with clutch kicking and a few flukey efforts on Tebow's part to go along with several "LOL" moments from opposing defenses.


Interesting. An "elite level defense"

20th in yards allowed
24th in points allowed

That's an elite defense right there brah! And I am the one somehow sensationalizing the Broncos turnaround last year?? Ok...

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

However, I also think you're strongly misguided when you think that the type of offense ran in Denver can be a "successful" offense, esecially with a QB who can't throw. Belichick made it look easy destroying that offense last year in the playoffs, and so did several other teams. This is a copy cat league, so there's absolutely no way to tell that he could've ran that offense and been successful this year.


Belicheck is an amazing defensive mind. The fact that you are using him shutting down Tebow as an example is laughable. And Tebow played well in their first regular season meeting between the two. Many of teams have been shut down in a second meeting vs. the Pats.

Had the Broncos chosen to build around TT, draft personnel adept at that scheme and commit to him they could have had a successful offense. Obviously picking up Peyton Manning and keeping your current personnel is a good move as well as demonstrated by their success this season. I don't blame Elway for making that decision, it was the more concrete option. What I am saying again is the difference between JPP's situation and Tebow's is the Giants committed to JPP. Tebow has yet to find the team that is willing to commit to him and build around him.

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

Finally, I'm not masking my hatred for TT, I'm making it very obvious I'm not a fan of his. He's not a good QB. He shouldn't be viewed as one, and there's no way in heck that any NFL team should bench their starting QB for him. He's a situational QB at best, and that's how I and thousands, probably millions of other people view that.


+10 respect for at least coming out and admitting you hate him.

He's not a good prototypical NFL QB. He can be however a very good unprecedented dual threat QB if a team commits to him and builds around him. And thousands and millions of people disagree with you. He's not the most polarizing player in sports for no reason. You hate him, I love him. You say he sucks and can never be good, I say he's raw and has shown flashes of greatness. What other player has had such bipolar outlooks?
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Kiei7


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.


JPP overcame that and put up an elite season. Tebow did not and is not capable. That's the difference. That's why your comparison sucks.
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mse326 wrote:
Fired-Up wrote:

Yes, but he won the super bowl.

Seriously I've never seen anyone as wrong as you all the time. The fact that you have knocked Skip Bayless off that perch has brought great shame upon this website.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiei7 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.


JPP overcame that and put up an elite season. Tebow did not and is not capable. That's the difference. That's why your comparison sucks.


Nope. JPP put up an elite season despite his lack of mechanics. He has still yet to overcome it according his own words, and Tucks. But obviously you must know better.

And Tebow turned around a sinking team and led them to the playoffs. Difference is the Giants were committed to JPP, the Broncos used Tebow to spark their offense and then decided to move on to a future HOF'er.

To say my comparison sucks is willingly ignoring the similarities between the two when drafted and focusing on the two in the present.
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Malik


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiei7 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.


JPP overcame that and put up an elite season. Tebow did not and is not capable. That's the difference. That's why your comparison sucks.


Right. And there's canyon of a difference between a player on the d-line versus someone you expect to command your entire offense. Even if teams believe deep down in their hearts the potential for a Tim Tebow what is REALLY the season for a QB like him? Sneaking into the playoffs with 9 to 10 win team before being bounced out? That's not worth the investment for such comparably low ceiling.
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SnA ExclusiVe


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
Shockey1979 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:
reckless123 wrote:
Kiei7 wrote:

JPP was obviously able to overcome those mechanical deficiencies. Tebow wasn't. That's why a team committed to JPP and not Tebow


JPP isnt there yet. Hes come along way and his technique has improved drastically but there is still room for improvement.


I didn't mean he fixed his technique. I meant he was still able to produce while not being mechanically sound.


And so was Tebow last year. Just QB is more scrutinized and statistically represented on all fronts. JPP is an amazing pass rusher but at times he's susceptible to not keep his contain or gap assignment. His mechanics are not sound. It's something he consistently has to ask Tuck and Osi about every practice...according to Tuck.


JPP overcame that and put up an elite season. Tebow did not and is not capable. That's the difference. That's why your comparison sucks.


Nope. JPP put up an elite season despite his lack of mechanics. He has still yet to overcome it according his own words, and Tucks. But obviously you must know better.

And Tebow turned around a sinking team and led them to the playoffs. Difference is the Giants were committed to JPP, the Broncos used Tebow to spark their offense and then decided to move on to a future HOF'er.

To say my comparison sucks is willingly ignoring the similarities between the two when drafted and focusing on the two in the present.


It's becoming quite funny at this point how mad you get when someone disagrees with your opinion. If you know everything about the NFL and the players, why don't you go be analyst?

If you can't handle different opinions, you shouldn't be posting on a forum, especially if you're just going to start calling everyone else stupid and using childish antics.

I'll leave someone else to debate your last post to me if they wish. There's too many holes and incorrect, hypocritical claims that I don't even want to bother going through them all.
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Shockey1979


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SnA ExclusiVe wrote:

It's becoming quite funny at this point how mad you get when someone disagrees with your opinion. If you know everything about the NFL and the players, why don't you go be analyst?


Says the guy who's every arguing point I've debunked time and again. Still think that Bronco defense is "elite"? Laughing

Perhaps your projecting your frustration of not being able to put together a solid argument on me. As I remember I'm not the one calling people morons. But I digress. I accept your resignation from the debate. Have a good one.
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