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AlanFanecaFan


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 10941
Location: Getting hammered with Jeff Reed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dook wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook wrote:
treat88 wrote:

Manny Sanders has a chance to make himself some money with AB out as well. Might earn himself a second round tender.


I don't know whats holding Sanders back. He has to step it up this year and he's healthy but only 3 receptions per game avg isn't worth any tag at all in my opinion.

Heck, I bet we can get that out of Gilreath.


You've said this before and it's incredibly stupid...lookin at bulk numbers from a guy who's been no better then a #3 WR due to having 2 incredibly talented guys in from of him.

It's called talent...if you can't tell the difference of that from a guy who's a practice squad type ...then I don't know what to tell you


You don't like bulk numbers? Oh boo hoo.

How about single game numbers. Two receptions. No AB in the game.

Two.

Stupid is giving a 2nd round tender to a guy who averages 2 receptions per game over four years.



Laughing

It's not a matter of liking them....trying to use bulk stats on a guy who doesn't start is still stupid...it's like using them on a 3rd down RB.

Then you want to use a single game in crappy weather conditions with a backup qb for half the game to try to validate a ridiculous statement.

Casey Hampton sucked cause he never racked up tackles all these years...same goes for Aaron Smith too since we're using bulk numbers.
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Dook


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2057
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook wrote:
treat88 wrote:

Manny Sanders has a chance to make himself some money with AB out as well. Might earn himself a second round tender.


I don't know whats holding Sanders back. He has to step it up this year and he's healthy but only 3 receptions per game avg isn't worth any tag at all in my opinion.

Heck, I bet we can get that out of Gilreath.


You've said this before and it's incredibly stupid...lookin at bulk numbers from a guy who's been no better then a #3 WR due to having 2 incredibly talented guys in from of him.

It's called talent...if you can't tell the difference of that from a guy who's a practice squad type ...then I don't know what to tell you


You don't like bulk numbers? Oh boo hoo.

How about single game numbers. Two receptions. No AB in the game.

Two.

Stupid is giving a 2nd round tender to a guy who averages 2 receptions per game over four years.



Laughing

It's not a matter of liking them....trying to use bulk stats on a guy who doesn't start is still stupid...it's like using them on a 3rd down RB.

Then you want to use a single game in crappy weather conditions with a backup qb for half the game to try to validate a ridiculous statement.

Casey Hampton sucked cause he never racked up tackles all these years...same goes for Aaron Smith too since we're using bulk numbers.


So bulk stats don't count and single game stats don't count either because the guy is not a starter then you compare him to Hampton and Smith who were both starters?

Talk about ridiculous statements.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 6427
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dook wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook wrote:
treat88 wrote:

Manny Sanders has a chance to make himself some money with AB out as well. Might earn himself a second round tender.


I don't know whats holding Sanders back. He has to step it up this year and he's healthy but only 3 receptions per game avg isn't worth any tag at all in my opinion.

Heck, I bet we can get that out of Gilreath.


You've said this before and it's incredibly stupid...lookin at bulk numbers from a guy who's been no better then a #3 WR due to having 2 incredibly talented guys in from of him.

It's called talent...if you can't tell the difference of that from a guy who's a practice squad type ...then I don't know what to tell you


You don't like bulk numbers? Oh boo hoo.

How about single game numbers. Two receptions. No AB in the game.

Two.

Stupid is giving a 2nd round tender to a guy who averages 2 receptions per game over four years.



Laughing

It's not a matter of liking them....trying to use bulk stats on a guy who doesn't start is still stupid...it's like using them on a 3rd down RB.

Then you want to use a single game in crappy weather conditions with a backup qb for half the game to try to validate a ridiculous statement.

Casey Hampton sucked cause he never racked up tackles all these years...same goes for Aaron Smith too since we're using bulk numbers.


So bulk stats don't count and single game stats don't count either because the guy is not a starter then you compare him to Hampton and Smith who were both starters?

Talk about ridiculous statements.


How about evaluating it from a talent/investment standpoint?

The 2nd round tender is going to be approx 2 mill in 2013.

I think we can agree that if Wallace walks we need another WR. It may be more debatable if Wallace is tagged, but I still see a hole at WR3/4 even if he stays.

Could we sign a UFA of equivalent talent for 2 mill per?

Personally, I think the answer is a resounding no. Particularly given familiarity with the system. I see a good to great route runner with electric short area quicks and decent hands. Can play on teams as a returner and is a more than willing downfield blocker. My only concern would be health and he seems to be working thru that this season. To me, he's a absolute bargain, no brainer 2nd round or better RFA signing.

You may have a different take on Sanders...that is fair, but I don't think his career stats either cumulative or on a per game basis paint an accurate picture of his value or talent.
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Dook


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2057
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ta'amu has talent. Worilds has talent. Talent alone can get you in the door, four years later it's time to prove it on the field. Sanders is a 3rd return guy and a #3 WR, to me that's worth about a 5th round draft pick (like Rainey).

Can we sign a UFA who can give us 2 receptions per game for $2m a year? We could but with our cap situation I wouldn't.

I would offer Sanders what he's worth, a contract barely over league minimum. If he doesn't take it and leaves then I would use a low draft pick on a WR, or get a UDFA WR, and have them compete against Gilreath at next years camp.
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treat88


Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 6427
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dook wrote:
Ta'amu has talent. Worilds has talent. Talent alone can get you in the door, four years later it's time to prove it on the field. Sanders is a 3rd return guy and a #3 WR, to me that's worth about a 5th round draft pick (like Rainey).

Can we sign a UFA who can give us 2 receptions per game for $2m a year? We could but with our cap situation I wouldn't.

I would offer Sanders what he's worth, a contract barely over league minimum. If he doesn't take it and leaves then I would use a low draft pick on a WR, or get a UDFA WR, and have them compete against Gilreath at next years camp.


Like I say, a different opinion is fair.

We are worlds apart in our thought process on this.

To go into next season with AB, Cotch, Gilreath, FA/rookie as the only wideouts on board just wouldn't be an option for me if I ran things.
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Dook


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2057
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we'll have Wallace, either he'll sign the $8-10m a year deal or we'll franchise him but if we did lose him I would draft a WR, probably use a 3rd or 4th depending on the talent available and whether Ta'amu is still on the team or not.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figure the Steelers will renegotiate Ben, Harrison, Ike, Timmons, Polamau and Woodley. I hope Pray if this happens then Harrison is moved inside.

Life would be simpler if Colon were to let go, DD is LG and Foster is retained for RG. Not going to happen.

If they do not retain Ike then signing Lewis becomes a high priority.

I think they make offers to Redman, Sanders, Dwyer.

They still need to resign Starks and possibly Foster.

I do not think there is much of a market for fat, non-athletic 0lineman but I could be wrong.

Big problem will be NT.
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AlanFanecaFan


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 10941
Location: Getting hammered with Jeff Reed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dook...you missed the point...I was showing you stats don't always tell the story.

Treat pretty much hit it on the head...sanders has talent...a $2 mill tender to possibly find a long term pairing with brown just makes too much considering everything.

I just can't see how you could be comfortable with a middle round rookie and PS type talents in the 3rd and 4th spot in the WR corps...it boggles the mind.
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AlanFanecaFan


Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 10941
Location: Getting hammered with Jeff Reed
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
I figure the Steelers will renegotiate Ben, Harrison, Ike, Timmons, Polamau and Woodley. I hope Pray if this happens then Harrison is moved inside.

Life would be simpler if Colon were to let go, DD is LG and Foster is retained for RG. Not going to happen.

If they do not retain Ike then signing Lewis becomes a high priority.

I think they make offers to Redman, Sanders, Dwyer.

They still need to resign Starks and possibly Foster.

I do not think there is much of a market for fat, non-athletic 0lineman but I could be wrong.

Big problem will be NT.


NT is starting to shape up as big need like OLB and S next offseason.

Maybe try to resign Snack on a 1 year vet min deal possible.

All I know it's going to be defense heavy draft next year.
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Dook


Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 2057
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook...you missed the point...I was showing you stats don't always tell the story.

Treat pretty much hit it on the head...sanders has talent...a $2 mill tender to possibly find a long term pairing with brown just makes too much considering everything.

I just can't see how you could be comfortable with a middle round rookie and PS type talents in the 3rd and 4th spot in the WR corps...it boggles the mind.


Stats don't always tell the story but you don't have to say my opinion is stupid just because you disagree with it. I really don't get all the love for a guy who has fizzled for years.

Sanders does have talent but it's maybe fifth round talent, not second round talent. 2nd rounders are supposed to be #2 WR's and compete for the #1 spot.

You don't see how I can be comfortable with middle round rookie and PS talent in the 3rd and 4th WR spots? That's not much different than what we have now in Sanders and Cotchery. Sanders was a 3rd round pick and Cotchery is barely faster than Willie Colon.

You're all assuming Wallace is gone, I think it's probably 60% chance he stays but even if he does go Sanders is not a solution. If we lose Wallace and keep Sanders we're still going to have to use a draft pick on a WR.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dook wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook...you missed the point...I was showing you stats don't always tell the story.

Treat pretty much hit it on the head...sanders has talent...a $2 mill tender to possibly find a long term pairing with brown just makes too much considering everything.

I just can't see how you could be comfortable with a middle round rookie and PS type talents in the 3rd and 4th spot in the WR corps...it boggles the mind.


Stats don't always tell the story but you don't have to say my opinion is stupid just because you disagree with it. I really don't get all the love for a guy who has fizzled for years.

Sanders does have talent but it's maybe fifth round talent, not second round talent. 2nd rounders are supposed to be #2 WR's and compete for the #1 spot.

You don't see how I can be comfortable with middle round rookie and PS talent in the 3rd and 4th WR spots? That's not much different than what we have now in Sanders and Cotchery. Sanders was a 3rd round pick and Cotchery is barely faster than Willie Colon.

You're all assuming Wallace is gone, I think it's probably 60% chance he stays but even if he does go Sanders is not a solution. If we lose Wallace and keep Sanders we're still going to have to use a draft pick on a WR.


I think Sanders could start for over half the teams in this league. Is he a #1 WR. No. Is he a very good route runner? Yes. Does he have above average quickness and speed? Yes. He will get a 1st round offer.

A good comparison is John Stallworth.
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jebrick


Joined: 10 Jan 2006
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Location: Indianapolis
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AlanFanecaFan wrote:


NT is starting to shape up as big need like OLB and S next offseason.

Maybe try to resign Snack on a 1 year vet min deal possible.

All I know it's going to be defense heavy draft next year.


Snack is playing well right now. I'm more worried about Hood because he is not looking like a 5 technique.
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SouthwestSteel


Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 1308
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jebrick wrote:
Dook wrote:
AlanFanecaFan wrote:
Dook...you missed the point...I was showing you stats don't always tell the story.

Treat pretty much hit it on the head...sanders has talent...a $2 mill tender to possibly find a long term pairing with brown just makes too much considering everything.

I just can't see how you could be comfortable with a middle round rookie and PS type talents in the 3rd and 4th spot in the WR corps...it boggles the mind.


Stats don't always tell the story but you don't have to say my opinion is stupid just because you disagree with it. I really don't get all the love for a guy who has fizzled for years.

Sanders does have talent but it's maybe fifth round talent, not second round talent. 2nd rounders are supposed to be #2 WR's and compete for the #1 spot.

You don't see how I can be comfortable with middle round rookie and PS talent in the 3rd and 4th WR spots? That's not much different than what we have now in Sanders and Cotchery. Sanders was a 3rd round pick and Cotchery is barely faster than Willie Colon.

You're all assuming Wallace is gone, I think it's probably 60% chance he stays but even if he does go Sanders is not a solution. If we lose Wallace and keep Sanders we're still going to have to use a draft pick on a WR.


I think Sanders could start for over half the teams in this league. Is he a #1 WR. No. Is he a very good route runner? Yes. Does he have above average quickness and speed? Yes. He will get a 1st round offer.

A good comparison is John Stallworth.


Pretty much sums up my view of him as well, and a decent comparison.
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kethnaab


Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 10026
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not sure about the John Stallworth comparison. Sanders has shown nothing but flashes. I am optimistic about his ability, but he hasn't proven anything yet.

as for NT and DE, Snack sucked at the beginning of the year, and he sucks now when he goes agaisnt the ZBS teams and he's forced to move laterally while maintaining his gap. He needs to squat and hold or simply fire off the snap and bury the center

Ziggy sucks as a 5-technique. Period. he's just downright bad. He is actually quite effective when he moves inside over the OG or C in the nickel.
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FourThreeMafia


Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 49976
Location: East of Sixburgh
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kethnaab wrote:
Ziggy sucks as a 5-technique. Period. he's just downright bad. He is actually quite effective when he moves inside over the OG or C in the nickel.


Yeah....my hope in him is really fading unless they change up how they use him.
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