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Gotta ask this again... Mike Wallace in 2013?
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
This is not Cerrato's mess anymore. This is Shanahan's baby! ... All that being said. I do think we are headed in the right direction and we will be a winning team next year...

All I'll say is that the leftovers from the culture of failure weren't just role players. Moss, Cooley, they were the go-to-guys for a long time. Fletcher, Hall & Doughty... with exception these guys were all highly compensated. I mean, the highly paid, profile players set the bar for everybody else, don't they? Not in Washington? Why's that? No markrc99, you got it wrong, these guys were the exception back then. Were they? I'm wondering whether Shanahan has only managed to cut off pieces of the tail & the head still remains? Don't get me wrong, I want him to have his 5 years. And anything he wants, Haslett back, whatever.

In the offseason Fletcher wanted $8M and they were like, go find what you're worth. He wasn't offered anything! The leader of the defense has a market-value of zero. Call me crazy but something about that just doesn't add up. I'm alright with what these guys were, but that was then. I feel like these 5 they should've already parted with. I know that's not popular, but this team's M.O. is just what it's always been. But I hear what you're saying & you're right, this is his team now.
1. they inherited Cooley, Moss, Fletcher, Haynesworth and Halls contracts.

2. They have moved on from Haynesworth, traded him for a pick actually. In picks that's a net gain because we didn't trade for him, unlike McNabb and Jammal Brown

3. Cooley was moved on from this past offseason until Davis tore his Achillies

4. They could have moved on from Moss and Fletcher but there weren't really upgrades available that were in the same price range. Moss has been this teams #1 wr or 2 since he's been here. I guess they could have not given him as much $ a few years ago but that's on them.

Fletcher's problem in FA was age and age only to other teams. no team wanted to sign a 37 year old FA, it made sense for a guy that age to return to where he knew. I'll also say it again, like I've said it a lot. London Fletcher is playing hurt! That's why he's struggling. Maybe he'll come back after this bye week and be more healthy for the last 7 games.

I think they will be moving on from all the mentioned players after this season.
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mike23md


Joined: 21 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Not a chance.

I see the logic - vertical threat who can take the top off any defense, and he's still young so his best years could be ahead of him - but he wants a huge contract and frankly I do not think he is a great locker room addition.

He's a ME player first and foremost, and this team has done a great job of moving away from those players. DeAngelo Hall is the last of them that I can think of.

I am 95% sure that the team does not express any interest.
hes not that much of a ME first player and neither is Moss. Big, big difference in a guy asking for a new contract when he's outplayed his current one ala Revis, CJohnson, MJD and a guy who constantly puts himself before the team. Ala TO, Haynesworth, Hall.

Mike Wallace missed camp but he didn't miss a game. Vincent Jackson and others have sat out games because of contract disputes. Mike Wallace showed up to work when it was definitely time to go to work.

Would I rather him not do that?

Yeah, but at the same time, he is free to do so. He is free to try to get a new contract any way he and his agent see fit. It didn't work, I'm glad it didn't. It gives us a chance to go after him this year. Cutting Moss and giving Wallaxe a similar cap number for next year makes sense to me.


Sorry turtle, but Santana has always been a ME first player.

And how could you possibly believe that Wallace is only going to get $6 million/year? It's going to be +/- 10 million/year and this team cannot afford that. If they try to keep his cap number down in 2013 because of the cap penalty, they would seriously compromise their ability to re-sign their young talent next off-season and the year after, ie. Orakpo, Riley, J.Wilson and all the 2011 draft class (ie. a good portion of the young talent on the team).

This team is being built on the 2011, 2012 and 2013 drafts, and they can delay paying some of the players because they can keep them as RFAs at a low cost, but at some point they will have to pay them. Orakpo's contract is going to be rich, and will have to be done this off-season and Kerrigan's will come in the 2014 year, and will be comparable.

Paying the young talent on this team is going to happen between 2013-2016, and I doubt they are going to devote that much cap to one position. I can see them doing it for the secondary this off-season if they target Shields and Byrd, but they do not have much allocated to the position overall. Whereas the receiving options will be Garcon, Morgan, Hankerson (cheap @707k) amounts to $18MM and Davis at 5-6MM (just a ballpark), you are already looking at 20% of the cap.

If you add 9-10 million to that, are you looking at a quarter of your cap for essentially four receiving options? Is that worth it? Can you build long-term success with that sort of approach?


footy, I can see your concern because it is my concern as well. As Mark has mentioned, the introduction of the salary cap floor is really going to drive up the prices on players for teams to reach that salary cap floor.

Is Mike Wallace going to actually be part of that salary war, yes. Should the Redskins be a part of that, yes, but to a point. I dont think they should overspend, but I dont think they should just be oblivious and let a team possibly get away with a bargain. He will not get Fitz money.

If there is a chance that we can get a proven commodity that can stretch the field and create more mismatches for defenses, then why not take a shot. Because Aldrick Robinson does not equal Mike Wallace when it comes to talent.

If Wallace is not a Redskin. So be it. I dont care. I am sure there are other WR's that are going to be out there that will be cheaper and we can take a look at them. Dwayne Bowe is the only other one that is fairly worth a true #1 with Garcon as a 1a or a good #2. Again, we are talking about teams that are going to shell out money to reach the cap floor and sign a player they normally wouldn't go after.

One player that actually could go under the radar could be Danny Amendola. He seems to be the poor mans Wes Welker, but the dude catches everything near him and he can spread the defense. Could be a nice addition opposite Garcon. He can also flip to the slot as well.

This salary cap floor is going to be more of a deterrent to the larger market teams like Washington and Dallas that spend close to the cap every year because of the salary wars that are going to ensue. It changes the strategy that teams with loads of money that want to spend can go out and usually get who they want vs teams that have loads of money that dont spend having to actually go out and bid on players they normally wouldnt want but are forced to spend for anyway.

But in no way, does this mean that we neglect the defense, especially the secondary.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
I think they will be moving on from all the mentioned players after this season.

Yeah, but why were they keeping these players around this year for? What, a playoff run? The team is 3-6, what was the point? Had they let these players go, do you know what it would've meant for next year? That $18M cap penalty... completely gone! They could've taken that cap hit this year & still been just as competitive! Or close enough. Saying the younger players weren't ready or they didn't have anybody else is missing the point. They're losing (yet again) with these guys. Yeah, they'd still be losing but at least next year they'd be in a much better situation!
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Not a chance.

I see the logic - vertical threat who can take the top off any defense, and he's still young so his best years could be ahead of him - but he wants a huge contract and frankly I do not think he is a great locker room addition.

He's a ME player first and foremost, and this team has done a great job of moving away from those players. DeAngelo Hall is the last of them that I can think of.

I am 95% sure that the team does not express any interest.
hes not that much of a ME first player and neither is Moss. Big, big difference in a guy asking for a new contract when he's outplayed his current one ala Revis, CJohnson, MJD and a guy who constantly puts himself before the team. Ala TO, Haynesworth, Hall.

Mike Wallace missed camp but he didn't miss a game. Vincent Jackson and others have sat out games because of contract disputes. Mike Wallace showed up to work when it was definitely time to go to work.

Would I rather him not do that?

Yeah, but at the same time, he is free to do so. He is free to try to get a new contract any way he and his agent see fit. It didn't work, I'm glad it didn't. It gives us a chance to go after him this year. Cutting Moss and giving Wallaxe a similar cap number for next year makes sense to me.


Sorry turtle, but Santana has always been a ME first player.

And how could you possibly believe that Wallace is only going to get $6 million/year? It's going to be +/- 10 million/year and this team cannot afford that. If they try to keep his cap number down in 2013 because of the cap penalty, they would seriously compromise their ability to re-sign their young talent next off-season and the year after, ie. Orakpo, Riley, J.Wilson and all the 2011 draft class (ie. a good portion of the young talent on the team).

This team is being built on the 2011, 2012 and 2013 drafts, and they can delay paying some of the players because they can keep them as RFAs at a low cost, but at some point they will have to pay them. Orakpo's contract is going to be rich, and will have to be done this off-season and Kerrigan's will come in the 2014 year, and will be comparable.

Paying the young talent on this team is going to happen between 2013-2016, and I doubt they are going to devote that much cap to one position. I can see them doing it for the secondary this off-season if they target Shields and Byrd, but they do not have much allocated to the position overall. Whereas the receiving options will be Garcon, Morgan, Hankerson (cheap @707k) amounts to $18MM and Davis at 5-6MM (just a ballpark), you are already looking at 20% of the cap.

If you add 9-10 million to that, are you looking at a quarter of your cap for essentially four receiving options? Is that worth it? Can you build long-term success with that sort of approach?


footy, I can see your concern because it is my concern as well. As Mark has mentioned, the introduction of the salary cap floor is really going to drive up the prices on players for teams to reach that salary cap floor.

Is Mike Wallace going to actually be part of that salary war, yes. Should the Redskins be a part of that, yes, but to a point. I dont think they should overspend, but I dont think they should just be oblivious and let a team possibly get away with a bargain. He will not get Fitz money.

If there is a chance that we can get a proven commodity that can stretch the field and create more mismatches for defenses, then why not take a shot. Because Aldrick Robinson does not equal Mike Wallace when it comes to talent.

If Wallace is not a Redskin. So be it. I dont care. I am sure there are other WR's that are going to be out there that will be cheaper and we can take a look at them. Dwayne Bowe is the only other one that is fairly worth a true #1 with Garcon as a 1a or a good #2. Again, we are talking about teams that are going to shell out money to reach the cap floor and sign a player they normally wouldn't go after.

One player that actually could go under the radar could be Danny Amendola. He seems to be the poor mans Wes Welker, but the dude catches everything near him and he can spread the defense. Could be a nice addition opposite Garcon. He can also flip to the slot as well.

This salary cap floor is going to be more of a deterrent to the larger market teams like Washington and Dallas that spend close to the cap every year because of the salary wars that are going to ensue. It changes the strategy that teams with loads of money that want to spend can go out and usually get who they want vs teams that have loads of money that dont spend having to actually go out and bid on players they normally wouldnt want but are forced to spend for anyway.

But in no way, does this mean that we neglect the defense, especially the secondary.


Garcon is the speed/deep threat for this team, and his contract is 8-8.5MM/year.

Vincent Jackson was 2 years older than Mike Wallace will be in his free agent year, with a couple of DUIs in his cupboard, and he has 11MM/year. Wallace doesn't need to get Fitz money, he can get Vincent Jackson money.

If they are going to spend 25% of the cap on four receiving weapons, which is DUMB, at least go for Bowe. Wallace has better deep speed than Garcon, but why get two guys who do the same thing? And Wallace is not a definitive upgrade. Get the physical, TD magnet to go along with the vertical threat.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I think they will be moving on from all the mentioned players after this season.

Yeah, but why were they keeping these players around this year for? What, a playoff run? The team is 3-6, what was the point? Had they let these players go, do you know what it would've meant for next year? That $18M cap penalty... completely gone! They could've taken that cap hit this year & still been just as competitive! Or close enough. Saying the younger players weren't ready or they didn't have anybody else is missing the point. They're losing (yet again) with these guys. Yeah, they'd still be losing but at least next year they'd be in a much better situation!
yeah I hear ya. I'd say veteran leadership. They needed veteran leadership. Moss had been a wr on this team for 5 years when Shanahan got here. Then in2010 he had his 2nd best season as a skin. So it made sense to re-sign your best wr because the only other guy we had with experience was Armstrong and then we traded for Gaffney.

With fletcher it was definitely leadership and he was the teams best player since Sean died. It made sense to re-sign him. I'll say it again, the guy is hurt. Lets see what he does coming off the bye because I have feeling he will look better than he has the past month.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Garcon is the speed/deep threat for this team, and his contract is 8-8.5MM/year.

Vincent Jackson was 2 years older than Mike Wallace will be in his free agent year, with a couple of DUIs in his cupboard, and he has 11MM/year. Wallace doesn't need to get Fitz money, he can get Vincent Jackson money.

If they are going to spend 25% of the cap on four receiving weapons, which is DUMB, at least go for Bowe. Wallace has better deep speed than Garcon, but why get two guys who do the same thing? And Wallace is not a definitive upgrade. Get the physical, TD magnet to go along with the vertical threat.
damn footy! Why you always gotta talk the truth and crush homes and dreams! Laughing Anyways, you are right. Great post buddy. Wink
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Woz


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
turtle28 wrote:
I think they will be moving on from all the mentioned players after this season.

Yeah, but why were they keeping these players around this year for? What, a playoff run? The team is 3-6, what was the point? Had they let these players go, do you know what it would've meant for next year? That $18M cap penalty... completely gone! They could've taken that cap hit this year & still been just as competitive! Or close enough. Saying the younger players weren't ready or they didn't have anybody else is missing the point. They're losing (yet again) with these guys. Yeah, they'd still be losing but at least next year they'd be in a much better situation!


As bad as Hall has been this year, do we honestly think it would be better if he weren't here this year? Or if Moss weren't here? Yes, he's dropped passes, but there hasn't been anyone who has really stepped up in Garcon's absence.

Fletcher has experienced a heck of a drop of in ability, but how much of that is injury and how much is age? Not sure. Still, you cannot say that it would have made sense to let our defensive captain go this offseason. Even his contract wasn't that large (2 yr/$10.75M)

As for Doughty? He's making $1.15M. His total contract is 3 yr/$4.125M, with just some workout and in-game bonuses totaling $0.1M and $0.125M. So, I'm not sure where you're coming from getting worked up about him. As someone else pointed out, Cooley's playing for veteran minimum.
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AntiSuperstar


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
Quote:
“You lose a game like that, now you’re playing to see who obviously is going to be on your football team for years to come. ... Obviously, we’re not out of it statistically, but now we find out what type of character we’ve got and how guys keep on fighting through the rest of the season.”

So I was restating what Shanahan was quoted as saying. Now, are you still going to say Shanahan never questioned the team's character or did someone at the WP just make up that quote? No, it wouldn't surprise me if they did. You do not have to convince me that the media is trash. But the part of your quote I emphasized, what's that suppose to mean? The team is losing, has been a loser & the coach is going to conduct an eval. Well, whose performance do you think he's talking about, the guys on the PS? Obviously, he's referring to the players he relies on and the alternative to them is who exactly? Especially put into the context of who will be playing for years to come, he's obviously referring to younger players.


Rolling Eyes Look, more reading into things as opposed to taking things as what they literally mean. If Shanahan was questioning the team's character than he would be blaming character for the losses so far or literally asking the question. He did neither. Find me the quote where he does. He merely said the obvious, that the remaining games will show what the players are made of. Period. There's no: "I don't think these guys have what it takes, but maybe they can prove me wrong in the remaining games." No, he's just using the same rhetoric everyone in these situations(it's practically motivational speak) uses that if players want to prove something here's their chances. Stop reading into things.

And no, he's not necessarily referring to younger players. The Redskins already have a player in London Fletcher who is 37 years old so are you seriously going to tell me guys like Lorenzo Alexander for example aren't worth evaluating for their roles on the team? Just guys who are young? Rubbish. Every player on the team has to be evaluated, that's what coaching is. It's not exclusive or particular to young guys. Again, fans, and media people(who are glorified fans) have the idea in their heads about playing young guys to see what they can bring and therefore they think evaluation = young players. Wrong.

markrc99 wrote:
Royal might suck but the coach your defending every which way to Sunday wanted him. My only point here was that the team was obviously looking for a slot rec'r prior to the draft and Greg Salas is on the Patriots PS. Although I do have concerns about Aldrick Robinson, I do want the team to take a good look at him.


According to "rumors" which for all you know were mere speculation based on the fact that Royal was drafted by Shanahan.
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's just learn to draft like Pittsburgh and get our own guy.. Wallace is 2009 3rd rd pick, 84th overall.. Cool
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mike23md


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
Let's just learn to draft like Pittsburgh and get our own guy.. Wallace is 2009 3rd rd pick, 84th overall.. Cool


Problem is that we are limited on draft picks and need to use the higher picks on issues that need to be resolved in the secondary. Especially after signing 2 WR's this offseason to fairly good contracts, drafting one would be a luxury.
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RSkinGM


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
Let's just learn to draft like Pittsburgh and get our own guy.. Wallace is 2009 3rd rd pick, 84th overall.. Cool


Problem is that we are limited on draft picks and need to use the higher picks on issues that need to be resolved in the secondary. Especially after signing 2 WR's this offseason to fairly good contracts, drafting one would be a luxury.


well-- maybe .. but come our second round pick I say we have to take the BPA among the DB's, Wideouts, Inside backers , even a monster TE..
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
Let's just learn to draft like Pittsburgh and get our own guy.. Wallace is 2009 3rd rd pick, 84th overall.. Cool
its not the pick! It's the development!

Wallace was a 3rd round pick- not everyone of those develop into starters

Antonio Brown- not all of those even make the team

Kennan Lewis, Colon, Rainey, Redman, Dwyer... Etc, etc

We are doing a good job at what we are doing. We need to retain all of our coaching staff and keep developing in the systems we just put in place two years ago. We do this and our future will be bright Cool

We are drafting players Shanahan and Hasslett think fit their systems well. For the most part, they've been right. I can't argue with that. I would have taken different positions than they did in a few circumstances but they've done a decent job developing who they've drafted.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RSkinGM wrote:
mike23md wrote:
RSkinGM wrote:
Let's just learn to draft like Pittsburgh and get our own guy.. Wallace is 2009 3rd rd pick, 84th overall.. Cool


Problem is that we are limited on draft picks and need to use the higher picks on issues that need to be resolved in the secondary. Especially after signing 2 WR's this offseason to fairly good contracts, drafting one would be a luxury.


well-- maybe .. but come our second round pick I say we have to take the BPA among the DB's, Wideouts, Inside backers , even a monster TE..
don't forget about RT. as for TE, I'm not sure i agree. I think they will re-sign Fred. Logan is a good back up and Paul is developing pretty nicely. He's shown flashes of what he can be.

As midniteric would say, it all depends on what we do in free agency. That will determine what positions we will target in the draft.
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Dashing


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cant get him :/ should of just traded for Marshall when we had the chance.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dashing wrote:
Cant get him :/ should of just traded for Marshall when we had the chance.
when, in 2010? I agree with that
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