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Gotta ask this again... Mike Wallace in 2013?
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DCRED


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rizzy wrote:
Do we even need him? Our offense moves fine without Garcon. Lets get Garcon back and see how much of an improvement we have.


Moves fine? RG3 has struggled in the last couple games, especially compared to the way the season started.

I agree Garcon's return will help, but teams are going to figure out how to stop the option thing we are doing. When they do we are going to need to be creative again. People are already starting to say that we are starting to look predictable in our playcalls. Far cry from the first game when we actually stymied the Saints- or was it just their porous D making us look good?

I think another vertical threat can't hurt our playcalling options... But Wallace may be well out of reach... Can Hankerson or Robinson EVER be that guy??
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The offenae has struggled because Sleepy is out. Take out the two primary weapons on offense, along with Santana's drops, and there will be problems.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
The issue with Mike Wallace last year was that he was a RFA. And his tender was set high. This year, he will be a UFA and while he is having a good year, is it enough to substantiate Fitzgerald money? I don't think so. He doesn't have the leverage.

Will he be cheap. No, but addressing the salary cap floor does become a bit of a problem when it comes to seeing if the Skins can get a deal out of him. This means that a lot of the higher quality FA's are going to get offers from teams that normally wouldnt spend to get above the salary cap floor. Which now makes this a real crap shoot in who is going to overspend on a player to get above the salary cap floor and take away players that could actually be available to teams that actually need them.

Then there is the attitude. This is where his leverage is lost. No teams are really willing to deal with a ME player and that is going to hurt the amount of money he could have made.

His talent, however, is hard to pass up and the ability to stretch the defense makes him very desirable. Having RGIII here could also make D.C. a potential landing spot. There is excitement surrounding the Skins right now.

Do I agree with going full bore on a WR when we signed 2 last year? No. But that is about a 60-40 no. Josh Morgan is NOT a #2 and is struggling to be a #3. Hankerson has apparently proven he can be a starter but he has yet to show quality production. Dez Briscoe and Aldrick Robinson should be the 4th and 5th WR's respectively and Banks should be gone. Moss will be let go as well.

The key to signing Mike Wallace would be the ability to stretch the field and open up that run game. Morris has been superb this season and his vision is exceptional. Having Garcon, Wallace, and Davis on the field, with Morgan in the slot, will seriously help the run game, the development of RGIII into a pocket passer, and the team overall.

But, with all seriousness involved here, the defense cannot and should not be ignored. It is time step away from Fletcher and Hall. Bring is a guy like Byrd who is dependable and look to the draft to get some young guys in that secondary.

Possible CB FA's:
Sam Shields
Jason McCourtey
Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie

Possible S FA not named Byrd:
Kenny Phillips

And maybe Andre Smith for the RT spot.
definitely agree Mike23md. We are on the same page. I love that FA list. Applause Applause
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DCRED wrote:
rizzy wrote:
Do we even need him? Our offense moves fine without Garcon. Lets get Garcon back and see how much of an improvement we have.


Moves fine? RG3 has struggled in the last couple games, especially compared to the way the season started.

I agree Garcon's return will help, but teams are going to figure out how to stop the option thing we are doing. When they do we are going to need to be creative again. People are already starting to say that we are starting to look predictable in our playcalls. Far cry from the first game when we actually stymied the Saints- or was it just their porous D making us look good?

I think another vertical threat can't hurt our playcalling options... But Wallace may be well out of reach... Can Hankerson or Robinson EVER be that guy??
as footy said. Not only is Garçon out, but Griff really started to ake a drop in production when Smoke Dog Fred went out. Logan is a good TE, but he isn't the playmaker that Freddie is.

As for your last question. I think Robinson is going to be a deep threat, not on Wallace's level but I think next year he's going to be a good wr. Footy was right about him this last offseason.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mike23md wrote:
But, with all seriousness involved here, the defense cannot and should not be ignored. It is time step away from Fletcher and Hall. Bring is a guy like Byrd who is dependable and look to the draft to get some young guys in that secondary.

I totally agree with respect to Hall & Fletcher. Mike Shanahan expressed very little confidence in this team after the Carolina loss. He questioned his team's character & then had to backtrack from implying that he'd be evaluating the players that were going to be with the team well into the future:
Quote:
Shanahan added that any inference that he would play young players at the cost of attempting to win was “completely ludicrous.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/playing-to-be-with-rg3-next-year-redskins-already-playing-out-the-string-under-shanahan/2012/11/05/f1179884-278d-11e2-ac64-5d52a2c5953e_story.html

Almost a complete reversal. Apparently, even if they sink to 3-8 or 9 he's now compelled to stick with some of these players. To my mind, it was a mistake to bring back ANY of the leftovers from the former culture. Frankly, this team is doing what it has always done, in recent years anyway. Which is to come out looking pretty good early on & then around midseason, completely cave! I don't know, but perhaps that's what fueled his vent? This is what was going on before he arrived & here he is, in his 3rd year and nothing's changed. Or more correctly, if the culture has changed, it's yet to translate on the field. But that's a different subject.

Back when they were signing receivers, they almost reeled in Eddie Royal. He would've been their slot rec'r. During the draft, a guy I thought they might consider was Greg Salas. Doesn't really possess any exceptional trait physically, but is fearless in traffic & can make the necessary adjustment to catch the football. Extensive experience in the slot. He's rusting on the Patriots PS. Elsewhere, I noticed that Moss sustained a concussion last week. I didn't know that.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
mike23md wrote:
But, with all seriousness involved here, the defense cannot and should not be ignored. It is time step away from Fletcher and Hall. Bring is a guy like Byrd who is dependable and look to the draft to get some young guys in that secondary.

I totally agree with respect to Hall & Fletcher. Mike Shanahan expressed very little confidence in this team after the Carolina loss. He questioned his team's character & then had to backtrack from implying that he'd be evaluating the players that were going to be with the team well into the future:
Quote:
Shanahan added that any inference that he would play young players at the cost of attempting to win was “completely ludicrous.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/playing-to-be-with-rg3-next-year-redskins-already-playing-out-the-string-under-shanahan/2012/11/05/f1179884-278d-11e2-ac64-5d52a2c5953e_story.html

Almost a complete reversal. Apparently, even if they sink to 3-8 or 9 he's now compelled to stick with some of these players. To my mind, it was a mistake to bring back ANY of the leftovers from the former culture. Frankly, this team is doing what it has always done, in recent years anyway. Which is to come out looking pretty good early on & then around midseason, completely cave! I don't know, but perhaps that's what fueled his vent? This is what was going on before he arrived & here he is, in his 3rd year and nothing's changed. Or more correctly, if the culture has changed, it's yet to translate on the field. But that's a different subject.

Back when they were signing receivers, they almost reeled in Eddie Royal. He would've been their slot rec'r. During the draft, a guy I thought they might consider was Greg Salas. Doesn't really possess any exceptional trait physically, but is fearless in traffic & can make the necessary adjustment to catch the football. Extensive experience in the slot. He's rusting on the Patriots PS. Elsewhere, I noticed that Moss sustained a concussion last week. I didn't know that.
i totally agree with this post.

You know I'm disappointed comments after the panthers game. Questioning the leadership... Shanahan is the leader! He's the director of personnel, last call on player moves, head coach, in charge of the offense and as much as I like it, it was his decision to switch from a 4-3 to 3-4.

Now, when you are questioning leadership, culture change and how we start off fast but fade as a team all Shanahan has to do is look right in the mirror at himself. This is not Cerrato's mess anymore. This is Shanahans baby!

All that being said. I do think we are headed in the right direction and we will be a winning team next year (if more healthy) and push for a,playoff spot.
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AntiSuperstar


Joined: 07 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

markrc99 wrote:
I totally agree with respect to Hall & Fletcher. Mike Shanahan expressed very little confidence in this team after the Carolina loss. He questioned his team's character & then had to backtrack from implying that he'd be evaluating the players that were going to be with the team well into the future:


This is what happens folks when a guy reads headlines without actually watching the conferences(which are offered free on the Redskins website, I don't see the problem here). Shanahan never questioned the team's character. Never even brought it up.

The stuff about young players was something people assumed he meant because he said how the team fights through adversity(a huge dissapointing loss in a must win game and a 3-6 record that is going to make every remaining game like a Playoff game) will from an evaluation standpoint be an opportunity to see who can play for this franchise for years to come(another words, backs are against the wall, players must fight through adversity to be a part of the team). This is what he meant. He never once even mentioned a player's age or experience and this particular "misinterpretation" by the media is ridiculous. The fact that evaluation = "young players" in people's minds demonstrates a real breakdown of the English language in this country. That's such a stupid leap to make.

markrc99 wrote:
Almost a complete reversal. Apparently, even if they sink to 3-8 or 9 he's now compelled to stick with some of these players. To my mind, it was a mistake to bring back ANY of the leftovers from the former culture. Frankly, this team is doing what it has always done, in recent years anyway. Which is to come out looking pretty good early on & then around midseason, completely cave! I don't know, but perhaps that's what fueled his vent? This is what was going on before he arrived & here he is, in his 3rd year and nothing's changed. Or more correctly, if the culture has changed, it's yet to translate on the field. But that's a different subject.


It's not as easy to remove players as you think. DeAngelo Hall had a huge contract(not Shanahan's fault) where cutting him would have resulted in a cap hit. Next season he will no longer have guaranteed money so we will see what the Redskins do. Who else should be cut exactly? Santana Moss? If they keep him an extra year I'll have a problem but I don't have a problem with him being on the team this year with all of the inexperienced players at wide receiver. Unless you're saying they should have cut him a year earlier, but if that's the case, again, there are financial reasons not to do that(plus the fact that with limited picks in Shanahan's first year and multiple other issues it's understandable why they would hold on to Moss).

Who else from the former team is around? Darrell Young? Will Montgomery? Fred Davis? Reed Doughty? Golston? Orakpo? Lorenzo Alexander? That's about it. Golston will probably be gone after this season and I don't see any reason to get rid of any of the other players. Most of the former Redskins are long gone. Shanahan's made some mistakes(the Donovan McNabb shennanigans mainly but also Billy freaking Cundiff) but I think he's done a good job of shedding the team's garbage. That's one area where I don't see an issue. I mean maybe you can argue Santana should have been gone earlier but I don't even see the case for anyone else.

markrc99 wrote:
Back when they were signing receivers, they almost reeled in Eddie Royal. He would've been their slot rec'r. During the draft, a guy I thought they might consider was Greg Salas. Doesn't really possess any exceptional trait physically, but is fearless in traffic & can make the necessary adjustment to catch the football. Extensive experience in the slot. He's rusting on the Patriots PS. Elsewhere, I noticed that Moss sustained a concussion last week. I didn't know that.


As a Broncos fan, Eddie Royal sucks. He did zilch in Denver last season and this season he's already cost Philip Rivers an interception with his poor route running. Greg Salas? Why draft these players when the team already has Aldrick Robinson who has more talent than any of those guys?
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*I forgot to mention Santana Moss as a me first player, along with DeAngelo Hall. So, that makes two players.

Ten players are pre-Shanahan, two of which are on IR.

Lorenzo Alexander
Fred Davis (IR)
Reed Doughty
London Fletcher
Kedric Golston
DeAngelo Hall
Rob Jackson
Santana Moss
Brian Orakpo (IR)
Darrel Young

mike23md, I forgot to address some things from your post in my earlier post:

1 - Jason McCourty signed a new deal in August
Quote:
The Tennessean reported the new deal was worth $43 million with $20 million in guarantees and bonuses.


2- Andre Smith...are you kidding me? Not even remotely likely.

3 - I am worried about Kenny Phillips considering how he has looked after the microfracture surgery (why we shouldn't expect anything from Chase Minnifield) and the diagnosis of patellofemoral arthritis. If he can be one of those transition signings on a one or two year deal, then I could get behind it.
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tyler735


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If Wallace can be had for a decent contract then we definitely should pull the trigger. He is the perfect WR for RG3, and would allow him to finally use his arm down the field.

QB-RG3
HB-Morris/Helu
WR-Wallace/Garcon/Morgan/Hankerson/Robinson
TE-Davis/Paulson/Paul

Basically signing Wallace would give us the potential to have a scary offense that would easily be among the best in the NFL, and actually give us some balance in the passing game.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tyler735 wrote:
If Wallace can be had for a decent contract then we definitely should pull the trigger. He is the perfect WR for RG3, and would allow him to finally use his arm down the field.

QB-RG3
HB-Morris/Helu
WR-Wallace/Garcon/Morgan/Hankerson/Robinson
TE-Davis/Paulson/Paul

Basically signing Wallace would give us the potential to have a scary offense that would easily be among the best in the NFL, and actually give us some balance in the passing game.
i agree. Having Wallace and Garçon together is scary for any defense to deal with. I'm not sure if we can pull off signing Wallace, it was just a question I thought of. He would basically be replacing Moss and Moss' cap # on our roster.

We get cheaper on D moving on from Fletcher to Alexander/Robinson, cheaper moving on from Hall to Sam Shields and a rookie draft pick.

Then we can get cheaper cutting Brown after June 1st and drafting a Rt in round 3 or 4 if there is one available that fits the Zbs. I think there should be. Lately, I've noticed Oday Aboushi, OT, Virginia has dropped into a round 3 prospect. That's right in our wheelhouse.
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

footy_29 wrote:
Not a chance.

I see the logic - vertical threat who can take the top off any defense, and he's still young so his best years could be ahead of him - but he wants a huge contract and frankly I do not think he is a great locker room addition.

He's a ME player first and foremost, and this team has done a great job of moving away from those players. DeAngelo Hall is the last of them that I can think of.

I am 95% sure that the team does not express any interest.
hes not that much of a ME first player and neither is Moss. Big, big difference in a guy asking for a new contract when he's outplayed his current one ala Revis, CJohnson, MJD and a guy who constantly puts himself before the team. Ala TO, Haynesworth, Hall.

Mike Wallace missed camp but he didn't miss a game. Vincent Jackson and others have sat out games because of contract disputes. Mike Wallace showed up to work when it was definitely time to go to work.

Would I rather him not do that?

Yeah, but at the same time, he is free to do so. He is free to try to get a new contract any way he and his agent see fit. It didn't work, I'm glad it didn't. It gives us a chance to go after him this year. Cutting Moss and giving Wallaxe a similar cap number for next year makes sense to me.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntiSuperstar wrote:


This is what happens folks when a guy reads headlines without actually watching the conferences... Shanahan never questioned the team's character. Never even brought it up. ... The stuff about young players was something people assumed he meant because he said how the team fights through adversity(...) will from an evaluation standpoint be an opportunity to see who can play for this franchise for years to come...

The media's misrepresentation was by suggesting that Shanahan had given up on the season. That's not anything that I was recounting here. However, here's a Shanahan quote from that same source:
Quote:
“You lose a game like that, now you’re playing to see who obviously is going to be on your football team for years to come. ... Obviously, we’re not out of it statistically, but now we find out what type of character we’ve got and how guys keep on fighting through the rest of the season.”

So I was restating what Shanahan was quoted as saying. Now, are you still going to say Shanahan never questioned the team's character or did someone at the WP just make up that quote? No, it wouldn't surprise me if they did. You do not have to convince me that the media is trash. But the part of your quote I emphasized, what's that suppose to mean? The team is losing, has been a loser & the coach is going to conduct an eval. Well, whose performance do you think he's talking about, the guys on the PS? Obviously, he's referring to the players he relies on and the alternative to them is who exactly? Especially put into the context of who will be playing for years to come, he's obviously referring to younger players.
Quote:
It's not as easy to remove players as you think. DeAngelo Hall had a huge contract (not Shanahan's fault) where cutting him would have resulted in a cap hit. Next season he will no longer have guaranteed money so we will see what the Redskins do.

You're right of course, I just don't know that Hall is one of those guys. I recall reading that they can cut him with minimal penalty. Over at thehogs.net, in addition to his salary there's only another 500k to account for. I would be interested in seeing your source. My understanding is that they dumped all his upfront money into uncapped 2010.
Quote:
Who else should be cut exactly?

When I said not ANY of the leftovers should've been brought back... I didn't mean "any"... lol I need more time to figure out just exactly what I did mean.
Quote:
As a Broncos fan, Eddie Royal sucks. Greg Salas? Why draft these players when the team already has Aldrick Robinson who has more talent than any of those guys?

Royal might suck but the coach your defending every which way to Sunday wanted him. My only point here was that the team was obviously looking for a slot rec'r prior to the draft and Greg Salas is on the Patriots PS. Although I do have concerns about Aldrick Robinson, I do want the team to take a good look at him.
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footy_29


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
footy_29 wrote:
Not a chance.

I see the logic - vertical threat who can take the top off any defense, and he's still young so his best years could be ahead of him - but he wants a huge contract and frankly I do not think he is a great locker room addition.

He's a ME player first and foremost, and this team has done a great job of moving away from those players. DeAngelo Hall is the last of them that I can think of.

I am 95% sure that the team does not express any interest.
hes not that much of a ME first player and neither is Moss. Big, big difference in a guy asking for a new contract when he's outplayed his current one ala Revis, CJohnson, MJD and a guy who constantly puts himself before the team. Ala TO, Haynesworth, Hall.

Mike Wallace missed camp but he didn't miss a game. Vincent Jackson and others have sat out games because of contract disputes. Mike Wallace showed up to work when it was definitely time to go to work.

Would I rather him not do that?

Yeah, but at the same time, he is free to do so. He is free to try to get a new contract any way he and his agent see fit. It didn't work, I'm glad it didn't. It gives us a chance to go after him this year. Cutting Moss and giving Wallaxe a similar cap number for next year makes sense to me.


Sorry turtle, but Santana has always been a ME first player.

And how could you possibly believe that Wallace is only going to get $6 million/year? It's going to be +/- 10 million/year and this team cannot afford that. If they try to keep his cap number down in 2013 because of the cap penalty, they would seriously compromise their ability to re-sign their young talent next off-season and the year after, ie. Orakpo, Riley, J.Wilson and all the 2011 draft class (ie. a good portion of the young talent on the team).

This team is being built on the 2011, 2012 and 2013 drafts, and they can delay paying some of the players because they can keep them as RFAs at a low cost, but at some point they will have to pay them. Orakpo's contract is going to be rich, and will have to be done this off-season and Kerrigan's will come in the 2014 year, and will be comparable.

Paying the young talent on this team is going to happen between 2013-2016, and I doubt they are going to devote that much cap to one position. I can see them doing it for the secondary this off-season if they target Shields and Byrd, but they do not have much allocated to the position overall. Whereas the receiving options will be Garcon, Morgan, Hankerson (cheap @707k) amounts to $18MM and Davis at 5-6MM (just a ballpark), you are already looking at 20% of the cap.

If you add 9-10 million to that, are you looking at a quarter of your cap for essentially four receiving options? Is that worth it? Can you build long-term success with that sort of approach?
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turtle28


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I don't agree with you Footy. It's not like Tana has acted like CP over the 7 years he's been here... I can't think of any instance where he missed training camps, showed up his coach or teammates or did anything like that. He's never been in big trouble off the field that I can think of, nor on the field.

In the end he's a wr and yeah all wrs are "me" players, they want the ball thrown their way but he's never been a problem, that I know of for this org since we traded for him in 05. Maybe you can think of an example because I can't think of any.

As for Wallace, you might be right but he's having a down year. I guess since he's having a down year that means a better chance he goes back to the steelers.
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markrc99


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

turtle28 wrote:
This is not Cerrato's mess anymore. This is Shanahan's baby! ... All that being said. I do think we are headed in the right direction and we will be a winning team next year...

All I'll say is that the leftovers from the culture of failure weren't just role players. Moss, Cooley, they were the go-to-guys for a long time. Fletcher, Hall & Doughty... with exception these guys were all highly compensated. I mean, the highly paid, profile players set the bar for everybody else, don't they? Not in Washington? Why's that? No markrc99, you got it wrong, these guys were the exception back then. Were they? I'm wondering whether Shanahan has only managed to cut off pieces of the tail & the head still remains? Don't get me wrong, I want him to have his 5 years. And anything he wants, Haslett back, whatever.

In the offseason Fletcher wanted $8M and they were like, go find what you're worth. He wasn't offered anything! The leader of the defense has a market-value of zero. Call me crazy but something about that just doesn't add up. I'm alright with what these guys were, but that was then. I feel like these 5 they should've already parted with. I know that's not popular, but this team's M.O. is just what it's always been. But I hear what you're saying & you're right, this is his team now.
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